Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

icehorse · Apr 5, 2014

Hi TashaN and cocolia42,

I certainly agree that a person's intentions will have an effect on how that person sees the world. I also understand that some things are better understood with the proper context. No argument with those points.

But according to Islam, the last and final, ETERNAL words of Allah are in the Quran. At this moment in 2014, the *context* that you guys are using to understand the Quran comes down to you through 1400 years of history. This history is filled with errors. (BTW, ALL history is filled with errors, so this isn't meant to slam Islamic history.) All throughout the last 1400 years, Muslims have disagreed on the history, correct? Islamic scholars debate history to this day.

So the *context* you guys are both relying on is not *the context*. It's not *the truth*, it's your context, the one you choose to rely on. That's fine.

My point is that it's also completely valid for a person to just read the words. The Quran chooses to emphasize the topics of anger, lying, hypocrisy, thought-crimes and hell right from the very beginning. Those words have meaning.

TashaN · Apr 5, 2014

cocolia42 said:
That's it. Right there. You can't just read the words. You have to read it all. It's called context.

Let's look at an example...
If I just read the words
Hi cocolia42, Wow, thanks for all that. I'm still working my way through it. But for the sake of discussion, let's say for now that your detailed analysis is absolutely correct.

By your reasoning, I can walk away from that and tell people that you said my detailed analysis is absolutely correct.

But I'd be wrong.

No. To get a basic understanding you only need to read it in context. Then, if you want to have a deeper understanding, you would have to put some work into it.

And I'd say you can never get to the *correct* interpretation. Because Allah is the All-Knowing, Wise. We can never fully comprehend His wisdom. We can only get closer to understanding what He wills.

Well said sis. :clap

icehorse · Apr 5, 2014

Hey Guys,

I've got daughters. I want them to have fantastic lives. I hope they'll have kids that have fantastic lives, and so on. I will do everything I can to help forestall the apocalypse.

How about you, are you looking forward to the end of days?

cocolia42 · Apr 5, 2014

icehorse said:
the *context* that you guys are using to understand the Quran comes down to you through 1400 years of history.

So the *context* you guys are both relying on is not *the context*. It's not *the truth*, it's your context, the one you choose to rely on.

I'm not referring to history when I say read it in context. You cannot take part of a sentence out of a book and claim to know what it means. It is not stand alone text. It is not a bullet-point list. It's a book. You have to take the entire book in context. You do not need to know any history at all to get the basic message of the book. You only have to take the book as a whole.

icehorse said:
My point is that it's also completely valid for a person to just read the words. The Quran chooses to emphasize the topics of anger, lying, hypocrisy, thought-crimes and hell right from the very beginning. Those words have meaning.

Actually, the Qur'an chooses to emphasize the topics of God's Love and Mercy, His Power over all things, that all Praise and Thanks is for Him, that Judgement belongs to Him, that we should worship Him alone and seek His guidance...right from the very beginning. Those words have meaning. First comes the glad tidings, then comes the warnings.

icehorse said:
Hey Guys,

I've got daughters. I want them to have fantastic lives. I hope they'll have kids that have fantastic lives, and so on. I will do everything I can to help forestall the apocalypse.

How about you, are you looking forward to the end of days?

I have 3 daughters. And a grandson Of course I want them all to have fantastic lives. BUT, I what I want even more is for them to have a fantastic eternity.

I have no reason to want to forestall the apocalypse. Whether it comes today or 20,000 years from now make no difference. Those who will be saved, will. And those who won't, won't.

While I don't necessarily look forward to my own death, I DO look forward to the end of days because only then will I stand face to face with my Creator.

Pastek · Apr 5, 2014

icehorse said:
Hey Guys,

I've got daughters. I want them to have fantastic lives. I hope they'll have kids that have fantastic lives, and so on. I will do everything I can to help forestall the apocalypse.

How about you, are you looking forward to the end of days?

You think believers can't have good lives ?
Look at Muhammad Ali, how fantastic his life was.

cocolia42 · Apr 5, 2014

Pastek said:
You think believers can't have good lives ?

Good question. I'm still wondering why icehorse takes issue with the idea that disbelievers will go to hell?
And what would be the purpose of forestalling the apocalyps?

Pastek · Apr 5, 2014

cocolia42 said:
Good question. I'm still wondering why icehorse takes issue with the idea that disbelievers will go to hell?
And what would be the purpose of forestalling the apocalyps?

Maybe he doesn't know any muslims and have a specific image of what they look like, and what they think.

Breathe · Apr 5, 2014

icehorse said:
I will do everything I can to help forestall the apocalypse.

Would this not be a sinful act to (even try to) go against God's plan for the Last Day?

Assad91 · Apr 5, 2014

icehorse said:
Hey Guys,

I've got daughters. I want them to have fantastic lives. I hope they'll have kids that have fantastic lives, and so on. I will do everything I can to help forestall the apocalypse.

How about you, are you looking forward to the end of days?

I have a daughter, who I love more than anyone in the world.

I don't fight to stall the apocalypse. How can you fight God? But since there is no telling when it'll be, I fight against those who wish to ruin the world.

TashaN · Apr 6, 2014

Well, it seems no one have sons here ha ha. I also have a beautiful daughter and i wish for her a very long and very successful life full of love, joy, and happiness. While believing firmly in the last day but as Muslims we are required to live this life to the fullest. That's why Prophet Mohamed told us in the meaning of the hadith, that even if the last day came and we have a seedling in the hands of any of us, we should go a head and plant it anyway, not to allow the overwhelming feeling of that day distract us from doing what we supposed to do. How more optimistic one can get?

I enjoy every bit of my life because i know that i'll be rewarded by God for the enjoyment in this life, not only when i pray to him. When i smile i'm rewarded, when i do sport i'm rewarded, when i enjoy the company of my wife i'm rewarded, when i play with my daughter i'm rewarded, when i read i'm rewarded, when i study, when i travel, when i think. As long as i do positive things in this life, i'll be rewarded for it by God. So why would i wish for the last day to occur? i would be out of my mind if i wished it would occur because we know as Muslims that it will occur only when evil prevail in both sides, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, and no one try to do anything about it. That's why i want to have a great life then die in peace before that day comes.

icehorse · Apr 6, 2014

cocolia42,

I'm not referring to history when I say read it in context. You cannot take part of a sentence out of a book and claim to know what it means. It is not stand alone text. It is not a bullet-point list. It's a book. You have to take the entire book in context. You do not need to know any history at all to get the basic message of the book. You only have to take the book as a whole.

Well that's not how human brains work. To oversimplify - for the sake of discussion - human brains learn by adding new things, incrementally, to things they already know. So a human brain cannot read an entire book and only draw conclusions at the end. A human brain has no choice but to draw conclusions as it goes along.

Also, as you well know, the verses I've mentioned so far are by no means unique. This kind of message about non-believers is restated hundreds of times throughout the book.

To everyone,

This is a side topic, but I'm interested in your answers about the end-of-days... First I have a question: What does Islam teach about the time between when you die and when judgment day comes? Is it some sort of limbo? In other words, as cocolia42 said, what if judgment day is in 20,000 years. What do you believe will happen to you after you die and until 20,000 years pass?

== back to the main discussion

As I've said earlier, I'm not a Christian, nor would I defend Christianity. In the U.S., a large percentage of Christian adults believe that Jesus will return in their lifetime. To me, this is a big problem. If you believe this, then why would you care about the Earth's ecology? Why would you care about global warming? Why would you care if the Earth's topsoil is ruined, it's clean fresh water is gone, and so on?

So that's why I brought up the end of days idea, to try to get a sense of how Muslims view issues like preserving the ecology for future generations...

cocolia42 · Apr 6, 2014

icehorse said:
Well that's not how human brains work. To oversimplify - for the sake of discussion - human brains learn by adding new things, incrementally, to things they already know. So a human brain cannot read an entire book and only draw conclusions at the end. A human brain has no choice but to draw conclusions as it goes along.

Last time I checked, I was human. Will we start to form opinions as we read? Certainly. But we should be prepared to change those opinions if the evidence turns in a different direction. To think that you can stop 10 pages into a 400 page book and say you already know what it says is just absurd.

icehorse said:
Also, as you well know, the verses I've mentioned so far are by no means unique. This kind of message about non-believers is restated hundreds of times throughout the book.

Please icehorse, explain to us why you take issue with non-believers going to hell? If there is a God and He commands us to worship Him then what do you think should happen to those who don't?

icehorse said:
To everyone,

This is a side topic, but I'm interested in your answers about the end-of-days... First I have a question: What does Islam teach about the time between when you die and when judgment day comes? Is it some sort of limbo? In other words, as cocolia42 said, what if judgment day is in 20,000 years. What do you believe will happen to you after you die and until 20,000 years pass?

There is either peace or punishment during al-barzakh (the interval between death and the Day of Resurrection) depending on how you lived your life. I remember hearing that when the Resurrection comes we will not know how much time has passed and that it would feel like a short time to us. But I'm not sure of this.

icehorse said:
== back to the main discussion

As I've said earlier, I'm not a Christian, nor would I defend Christianity. In the U.S., a large percentage of Christian adults believe that Jesus will return in their lifetime. To me, this is a big problem. If you believe this, then why would you care about the Earth's ecology? Why would you care about global warming? Why would you care if the Earth's topsoil is ruined, it's clean fresh water is gone, and so on?

So that's why I brought up the end of days idea, to try to get a sense of how Muslims view issues like preserving the ecology for future generations...

Regardless of when Jesus returns or when the Last Day is, we still have an obligation to care for Allah's creation. We are judged not only on our actions but also our intentions.

icehorse · Apr 6, 2014

Hi cocolia42,

Last time I checked, I was human. Will we start to form opinions as we read? Certainly. But we should be prepared to change those opinions if the evidence turns in a different direction. To think that you can stop 10 pages into a 400 page book and say you already know what it says is just absurd.

Of course I agree with that statement and I never said otherwise. And of course, the first pages of a book are often not representative of the whole book. In this case though, as I mentioned, the theme of how bad non-believers are is carried along all through the book.

As for the question about why shouldn't non-believers go to hell? Well as I said earlier, if you believe the words in the Quran then I think it's quite reasonable to believe the following:

- Allah made everything
- Allah made some people in such a way that they cannot honestly believe in the Quran.
- Allah has a great torment and punishment in store for non-believers.
- Therefore, Allah made some people just to torment them.

This doesn't seem like a peaceful message to me, nor does it seem like a merciful approach.

- Glad to hear the idea of taking care of Allah's creation! Nice!

Thanks for the explanation of al-barzakh, it seems consistent with what I'd expect.

Pastek · Apr 7, 2014

icehorse said:
Also, as you well know, the verses I've mentioned so far are by no means unique. This kind of message about non-believers is restated hundreds of times throughout the book.

Seems you can't really dissociate yourself from the arab pagans ...

icehorse said:
As I've said earlier, I'm not a Christian, nor would I defend Christianity. In the U.S., a large percentage of Christian adults believe that Jesus will return in their lifetime. To me, this is a big problem. If you believe this, then why would you care about the Earth's ecology?

Because of our children and the children of our children and so on...

icehorse said:
Why would you care about global warming? Why would you care if the Earth's topsoil is ruined, it's clean fresh water is gone, and so on?

Waaaa strange question. So a believer just wait to die and don't care about the earth ...

TashaN · Apr 7, 2014

icehorse said:
Hi cocolia42,

Of course I agree with that statement and I never said otherwise. And of course, the first pages of a book are often not representative of the whole book. In this case though, as I mentioned, the theme of how bad non-believers are is carried along all through the book.

As for the question about why shouldn't non-believers go to hell? Well as I said earlier, if you believe the words in the Quran then I think it's quite reasonable to believe the following:

- Allah made everything
- Allah made some people in such a way that they cannot honestly believe in the Quran.
- Allah has a great torment and punishment in store for non-believers.
- Therefore, Allah made some people just to torment them.

This doesn't seem like a peaceful message to me, nor does it seem like a merciful approach.

- Glad to hear the idea of taking care of Allah's creation! Nice!

Thanks for the explanation of al-barzakh, it seems consistent with what I'd expect.

It seems you are shifting from asking whether Quran promote peaceful values or not to God himself and the purpose of creation, etc. The moment we try to answer something in a specific topic you are jumping to a totally different topic.

Do you want to pick something in specific to discuss or you want an open discussion about anything and everything? that's because as i recall the reason why we created this thread is to discuss verses themselves but not the idea of God in Islam.

So, where do you want to go?

cocolia42 · Apr 7, 2014

icehorse said:
if you believe the words in the Quran then I think it's quite reasonable to believe the following:

- Allah made everything
- Allah made some people in such a way that they cannot honestly believe in the Quran.
- Allah has a great torment and punishment in store for non-believers.
- Therefore, Allah made some people just to torment them.

Get the idea that Allah made people to disbelieve out of your head. It is not true. It never has been and it never will be.THEREFORE Allah did not make anyone just to torment them.

icehorse said:
This doesn't seem like a peaceful message to me, nor does it seem like a merciful approach.

The mercy is in the fact that Allah keeps reminding us of what will happen if we don't take heed and in the fact that there are so many ways to please Allah and so few ways to earn the torment of hell.

Allah is also Just. Where would the justice be if the people who didn't do what they were told didn't get punished. That would be like the government saying 'For the next 20 years sex is illegal. Anyone who doesn't have sex for the next 20 years might get $1000; anyone who encourages others not to have sex might get an extra $10 for everyone they encourage; anyone who has sex will get nothing.' Then what would stop you from having sex?

icehorse · Apr 7, 2014

TashaN said:
It seems you are shifting from asking whether Quran promote peaceful values or not to God himself and the purpose of creation, etc. The moment we try to answer something in a specific topic you are jumping to a totally different topic.

Do you want to pick something in specific to discuss or you want an open discussion about anything and everything? that's because as i recall the reason why we created this thread is to discuss verses themselves but not the idea of God in Islam.

So, where do you want to go?

Hi TashaN,

I did not think we were off-topic, help me out here... the topic is "Does the Quran promote peaceful values?". I've only been talking about the words in the book, correct? You seem to be creating two categories of discussion here, and I'm seeing only one. I thought we were discussing verses in the book. If some of those verses talk about the nature of Allah, were you thinking those verses were different?

cocolia42,

I believe that one of the messages in the Quran is that some people are made by Allah not to believe.

So my claim is that there are two types of non-believers:
- those who could choose to believe
- those who cannot believe, even if they want to

One definition of an "atheist" is someone who has looked at scripture (the Bible, the Quran, and so on), and doesn't think that the scripture is supernatural. That's it.

In every other way an atheist is the same as a believer, except a believer has decided to believe in one particular scripture. Both the atheist and the believer can share exactly the same morals and values, correct? Notice that you and TashaN and Pastek have chosen to believe in the Quran. But billions of people have chosen to believe in the Bible. And finally, there are some people who don't find any scripture to be convincing. They are not being defiant. Their hearts are not closed. They simply cannot honestly believe that any of these books are supernatural.

Allah made those people too, and he will torment them. Which part of that is incorrect?

TashaN · Apr 7, 2014

icehorse said:
Hi TashaN,

I did not think we were off-topic, help me out here... the topic is "Does the Quran promote peaceful values?". I've only been talking about the words in the book, correct?

Sorry but all what i saw was your perception for what the words are saying but not the words themselves. You are simply judging an entire book through the first couple of verses which you claim have fully understood, but truth is you didn't read the Quran, you just flipped through it and read the verses which you believe prove your point. Cherry picking is is a vice when discussing serious topics.

You seem to be creating two categories of discussion here, and I'm seeing only one. I thought we were discussing verses in the book. If some of those verses talk about the nature of Allah, were you thinking those verses were different?

Yeah i'm seeing two. One of them is about the actual verses and the other is about what you imagine the verses are saying.

cocolia42,

I believe that one of the messages in the Quran is that some people are made by Allah not to believe.

Allah doesn't make someone not to believe if that person want to believe or try to believe.

So my claim is that there are two types of non-believers:
- those who could choose to believe
- those who cannot believe, even if they want to

One definition of an "atheist" is someone who has looked at scripture (the Bible, the Quran, and so on), and doesn't think that the scripture is supernatural. That's it.

In every other way an atheist is the same as a believer, except a believer has decided to believe in one particular scripture. Both the atheist and the believer can share exactly the same morals and values, correct? Notice that you and TashaN and Pastek have chosen to believe in the Quran. But billions of people have chosen to believe in the Bible. And finally, there are some people who don't find any scripture to be convincing. They are not being defiant. Their hearts are not closed. They simply cannot honestly believe that any of these books are supernatural.

Allah made those people too, and he will torment them. Which part of that is incorrect?

How do you know if someone want to believe or doesn't want to?

cocolia42 · Apr 7, 2014

icehorse said:
I believe that one of the messages in the Quran is that some people are made by Allah not to believe.

So my claim is that there are two types of non-believers:
- those who could choose to believe
- those who cannot believe, even if they want to

One definition of an "atheist" is someone who has looked at scripture (the Bible, the Quran, and so on), and doesn't think that the scripture is supernatural. That's it.

In every other way an atheist is the same as a believer, except a believer has decided to believe in one particular scripture. Both the atheist and the believer can share exactly the same morals and values, correct? Notice that you and TashaN and Pastek have chosen to believe in the Quran. But billions of people have chosen to believe in the Bible. And finally, there are some people who don't find any scripture to be convincing. They are not being defiant. Their hearts are not closed. They simply cannot honestly believe that any of these books are supernatural.

Allah made those people too, and he will torment them. Which part of that is incorrect?

This part of that is incorrect:

some people are made by Allah not to believe.

So my claim is that there are two types of non-believers:
- those who could choose to believe
- those who cannot believe, even if they want to

England my lionheart · Apr 7, 2014

icehorse said:
This thread is a continuation of a thread in the "Comparative Religion" forum entitled; "What are the values of moderate Muslims?".

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/159410-what-values-moderate-muslims.html

To summarize (and I hope not oversimplify), as a western secularist my reading of the Quran is that it does NOT promote modern, peaceful values such as:

- freedom of religion and freedom from religion (e.g. no penalty for apostasy)
- separation of church and state (e.g. the opposite of Sharia)
- equality for all (e.g. women's rights, gay rights...)
- freedom of speech (e.g. the freedom to openly criticize anything)
- respect for other belief systems
- respect for non-Muslims and non-Muslim countries

My second claim is that if a Muslim holds modern, peaceful values, those values didn't come from the scripture, and that the scripture must be massively edited and cherry-picked to support peaceful values.

When I have cited certain verses from the Quran to support my claims, I have been told that I'm not interpreting the verses correctly. Several members have said that if I (we?) will cite verses that seem to be in conflict with the above list, they will explain the true context.

I will list some verses here, but it seems others should be able to as well.

== Allah created non-believers so they can burn in hell

2:6-7
4:56
22:19-22
40:70-72
56:93-94

and many others...

== non-believers are not to be trusted or befriended

2:65-66 - Jews are apes to be despised
2:121 - they are losers
2:191-193 - kill them
2:221 - no intermarriage
3:73 - do not believe them
3:118 - do not befriend, they hate you
4:101 - they are enemies
9:107 - they are liars
33:48 - they are hypocrites
58:14-15 - they are hypocrites and liars

and many others...

That seems like a good start. The verses I listed are only a small fraction of the verses in the Quran that read as though the Quran does NOT have a peaceful message.

016:044 Pickthal

:

With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

IMO its not clear and never has been,to people not happy with "that they may haply reflect"suggests a choice,these are the words of the supreme being according to 1. something or other billion people so choice goes out of the window,the Qur'an is static like the other Abrahmic scriptures IMO so The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) is not for today but for a very long time ago but they haven't grasped that yet and cant move on,sadly the sunnah and \ahadith supply enough evidence to show that the Quran does not promote peaceful values.

Does the Quran promote peaceful values? (I claim it does not.)

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