• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are the 10 commandments "truth" ?

precept

Member
"The first couple aren`t world wide recognised laws?

No other gods etc..?" Linwood

They most certainly are!

If you are Moslem....There is no other god but Allah.
If you are Hindu....Your individual gods would reign vengeance on any devotee who chooses to ignore his devotion to said god.
If you are buddhist...your devotion to the teachings of Buddah are unwavering.

It stands to reason that the devotee of any religious persuasion would not be such had he not have an unwavering devotion to the deity of his choice. Such deity desires to be worshipped to the exclusion of all other deities.

precept
 

precept

Member
"However, the bible shows that mankind knew right from wrong long before Moses claimed God carved on a rock. The story of the tree of knowledge and then the story of Abel and Cain.

Genesis 4: 23 Lamech said to his wives, "Adah and Zillah, listen to me; wives of Lamech, hear my words. I have killed [8] a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me. 24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times." Michelle

Lamech was a contemporary of Cain, and Adam and was born prior to Adam's son Seth....verse 24,25.

"Then men began to call upon the name of the Lord" verse 26; is also an indication that the worship of god was practiced long before the birth of Abraham, father of the Jewish nation; and hence long before God gave the written version of His ten commandments.
You are right in your asertion that wrong and right were known to humanity long before the written version was given at mount Sinai; a testament to the fact that God by word of mouth had so instructed the first humans as to what was right and wrong. Surely it must stand to reason that having given this ethical code to the first two created humans would have absolved God from giving again the same moral code that He had already given to Adam and Eve. The responsibility would therefore be Adam's and Eve's to pass on the teaching of this ethical code of behaviours.

It is also not to be unexpected that as humans chose to disobey God; that His moral code would have also been ignored and disobeyed and fallen into disuse. His choosing to give again in written form His ten moral codes is in keeping with a good God who does not desire to punish the guilty without first giving the guilty reasons for not doing wrong.


precept
 

precept

Member
"2350 BC: Urukagina's Code
2050 BC: Ur-Nammu's Code
1850 BC: The Earliest Known Legal Decision
1700 BC: Hammurabi's Code
1300 BC: The Ten Commandments "Rex Admin

In the year of the first two created humans....Adam and Eve....Genesis 4:26..."Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord".
If Cain knew that murder was wrong....If Adam and Eve knew that stealing was wrong....they stole fruit from the "tree of knowledge"...If they also knew that disobedience was wrong.... they disobeyed their Father God....and since Lamech also knew that murder was wrong ; then they all knew God's moral code of behaviour long before the "visionaries" mentioned. And they could have only become aware of God's code of right and wrong; because they were so taught by God Himself.

precept
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
They 10 commandments are actually written on our hearts thru our conscience and when we adhere to them or for that matter even recognise and identify them we naturally and inherently act upon them ,for they become truth and peace to those who adhere.
An intellectual and philosopical rationalist or relativist will proceed to argue truth is relative not absolute and will be reluctant to demonstrate by raping or killing someone for arguement sake.
They spend their lives debating and arguing, or some would call it philosophizing over such issues for the sake of of so called intellectual rhetoric, yet they become hypocritical because the very mention of commandments and law they oppose or the absolute truth these laws represent are the very thing every man or woman live by
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Mr_Spinkles said:
roli-- Is genocide immoral?

Didn't God command the Israelites in the Old Testament to commit genocide?

So was God acting immoral then, or are there certain cultural, historical, or philosophical circumstances which made genocide "moral" in that situation?

Is it immoral to work on the Sabbath? Is it immoral to eat shellfish? A lot of morality changes in the Bible, particularly from the Old to the New Testament, so I'm not sure how you can argue that right and wrong are not based on situational circumstances.

Sprinkles, who am I to determine what is or is't immoral , except thru my convictions as a christian . So, yes ,Genocide is absolutely immoral ,as the the commandment states that murder is a violation of God's commandments and "the wages of sin is death", Does this mean God will die,
To God there is a law of sin and death , "the soul that sins shall surely perish."
This is a law , now the consequences of breaking the law of gravity for example does not necessairy come into effect immediately until you hit the ground, so it is with violation of God's spiritual laws, as a matter of fact, Jesus came unto the scene and says, "if you hate ( intensely dislike)your brother, you are a murderer"

If God is a law giver, he also has control over the effects of us violating His Law, it does not stop with the 10 commandments, He is law giver of thermo dynamics, gravity, chemical, physics ,biological laws etc.
I ask you, When these are violated, who is responsible for the consequences, God or the one who ignorantly violated such laws.? Apparently God , then He appears as a Genocidal murderer, thru and thru, no need to go any further.
But, God's plan is that we see our frailties and limitations and depend upon Him for help and guidance and ultimate deliverance, but who wants to be told what to do and how to do it, how to live, who to worship,what is truth, what is good and bad etc

Would you agree that we, as finite beings, have limits and boundaries in our fragile bodies and lives and require such laws to govern and regulate us here in this life.
Our violation of these laws, as well, His commands, are against him and Him only, but a by -product of my sin or violation of such laws will effect those around me as in the law of cause and effect ,every action is an opposite or equal reaction,as in Hitler etc.

And answer to your second question, "is God immoral ? excellent debatable issue ,but as christian who has the spirit within me that gives me understanding and confirmation of who God is ,what His purpose is and what is Holy to him . When he says," vengence is mine, I will repay" and " I will punish sin where it is found " who am I to say otherwise.

God is like a father who will punish ,but his punishment is eternal and sometimes terminal and the only sacrifice for sin is death, spiritual and physical ,for in the blood is life, the most sacred commodity to mankind.
So Jesus shed His blood ,pay the price of our defiance,so we can live with God .

If you read the Old Test. you will also see the grace and mercy he offered to all those who were defiant ,disobedient, rebellious, and wicked , but did they listen?,no
This is why Jesus came to die for our sins and take our punishment of death, so we can be forgiven of guilt and sin and live for ever, and when His spirit confirms that I have been forgiven have eternal life, that is truth and reality to the cristian surpassing all intellectual and philosophical concepts
The mystery of God and his message is not revealed or understood thru an array of thoughts and concepts and intellectual mindsets,but thru faith alone.
I know, because I walked both sides of the fence
The commands point us to Christ, His grace takes it from there
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
The following and understanding of God's law will make no sense to a person who does not have the spirit of God dwelling within them.

It is His spirit that gives light , understanding and truth to the ways of God
" The natural man recieves not the things of God , neither can he know them for they are foolishness to him, for they are spiritually discerned.

I could sit and debate all day about right and wrong , what is truth, etc. but I was there most of my life , that is, the other side of christianity looking in through my intellect and sensory perception ,but the whole God , Jesus stuff was all but a mystery to me, making me more critical and uneasy, till I saw my need to be saved from my sin that is violation of His law, because if Hell and eternal torment existed I surely did not want that to be my eternal dwelling, and when I called out to him he met me.

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble
 

Rex

Founder
precept said:
"2350 BC: Urukagina's Code
2050 BC: Ur-Nammu's Code
1850 BC: The Earliest Known Legal Decision
1700 BC: Hammurabi's Code
1300 BC: The Ten Commandments "Rex Admin

In the year of the first two created humans....Adam and Eve....Genesis 4:26..."Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord".
If Cain knew that murder was wrong....If Adam and Eve knew that stealing was wrong....they stole fruit from the "tree of knowledge"...If they also knew that disobedience was wrong.... they disobeyed their Father God....and since Lamech also knew that murder was wrong ; then they all knew God's moral code of behaviour long before the "visionaries" mentioned. And they could have only become aware of God's code of right and wrong; because they were so taught by God Himself.

precept
I understand through your belief that statement would be correct but would it be fair to say that man doesn't get their morality from the 10 commandments but rather the earlier systems that pre-date them?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
If Adam and Eve knew that stealing was wrong....they stole fruit from the "tree of knowledge"...If they also knew that disobedience was wrong.... they disobeyed their Father God

They did not have this knowledge until they broke it.
They would never have had this knowledge unless they broke it.
The Bible teaches that Adam & Eve had no knowledge of right & wrong until after eating of the fruit they were forbidden to eat.
God did not intend nor want them to have this knowledge.

as a matter of fact, Jesus came unto the scene and says, "if you hate ( intensely dislike)your brother, you are a murderer"

Jesus also said one couldn`t be his disciple unless one hated his brother.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

And answer to your second question, "is God immoral ? excellent debatable issue ,but as christian who has the spirit within me that gives me understanding and confirmation of who God is ,what His purpose is and what is Holy to him . When he says," vengence is mine, I will repay" and " I will punish sin where it is found " who am I to say otherwise.

You are a living being who is able to use his God given gift of intelligence to determine what is right & what is wrong.
If the one who tells you what is right & what is wrong is breaking his own rules you can determine whether his actions are moral according to his own standards.
I can`t abide anyones rules when they refuse to live by them themselves.


Rex said:[/b]
I understand through your belief that statement would be correct but would it be fair to say that man doesn't get their morality from the 10 commandments but rather the earlier systems that pre-date them?

Any and all systems within society come from within mankind him/herself.
The moral codes that pre-date Biblical laws are themselves pre-dated by those who put the pen to paper.

They are a human condition.
 

precept

Member
"I understand through your belief that statement would be correct but would it be fair to say that man doesn't get their morality from the 10 commandments but rather the earlier systems that pre-date them?"Rex Admin

It isn't just only fair to make such a conclusion but it is also proof that once God puts in place values designed for any of humanity; such values remain binding and the same for all of humanity; past, present and future. His repeating those values at some period; is meant only as a reinforcement of said values; not a replacement of same....."I am God; and I change not!"; says God.


prercept
 

precept

Member
"They did not have this knowledge until they broke it.
They would never have had this knowledge unless they broke it.
The Bible teaches that Adam & Eve had no knowledge of right & wrong until after eating of the fruit they were forbidden to eat.
God did not intend nor want them to have this knowledge."Linwood

Linwood...your argument puts the blame on God for not elightening Adam and Eve as to what is "right and wrong" before allowing them to be tempted by Satan.
Your argument does not bode well for the parent who doesn't demonstrate for the child how, that crossing the street without waiting for vehicular traffic to come to a standstill must result in the death of the demonstrating parent; for the child to learn the "right and wrong" of street crossing.
It must certainly be sufficient for the inexperienced child to trust the judgement of a loving devoted parent; and any mistrust resulting in disobedience on the part of the inexperienced child must be seen as insubordination.
In like manner, our first parents were the children of an All Powerful, All Knowing Parent God...and mistrust in God on the part of Adam and Eve, coupled with their trust in Satan's explanation as to why they were forbidden to eat of the fruit of this particular tree, was disobedience in their not obeying God's command and insubordination of the highest order.


precept
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
linwood said:
They did not have this knowledge until they broke it.
They would never have had this knowledge unless they broke it.
The Bible teaches that Adam & Eve had no knowledge of right & wrong until after eating of the fruit they were forbidden to eat.
God did not intend nor want them to have this knowledge.
Jesus also said one couldn`t be his disciple unless one hated his brother.
You are a living being who is able to use his God given gift of intelligence to determine what is right & what is wrong.
If the one who tells you what is right & what is wrong is breaking his own rules you can determine whether his actions are moral according to his own standards.
I can`t abide anyones rules when they refuse to live by them themselves.
Any and all systems within society come from within mankind him/herself.
The moral codes that pre-date Biblical laws are themselves pre-dated by those who put the pen to paper.
They are a human condition.
Response from Roli
Gen 2:17 If you recall ,God commands Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree ( they were left with a choice and free will, after given a command) maybe they did'nt see the consequences, much like most of us when we violate certain absolute universal and social laws and codes of ethics, going against the inner voice of Conscience within each of us.
Adam and Eve forfeited over their position of authority, dominion, & relationship to God upon there disobedience. They then saw the consequences were real when kicked out of the garden, but it was there that mankind was separated from God, then Jesus came to reconcile man to God. That is another topic
The humanistic view is one of an intellectual and relative nature ,claiming man is above all things and within him has all the ability and the freedom to determine his destiny and what constitutes for morality. They declare there are no right or wrong, good or bad, absolutes etc, unless it is relative to the individual or situation
He then begins to warn them of there impending consequences, if they disregard, violate and disobey the command.
Do you think they understood what He meant?,I certainly do!, Was it clear to them there was a choice left on their part and the wrong choice would lead to death. They were given options and were decieved by satan to question God and ultimately disobey
Saying ,"did God really say"," does He really mean that", "It won't be as bad as that", etc, much like philosopohical and intellectual debates hurling out reasoning, intellect,excuses,doubts ,questions and justifications towards God etc.

The pleasure appeared greater then the consequences, because of the lust of the eyes , lust of the flesh and pride of life.
The fruit appealed to their desires. What is the fruit the allures mankind away from God today. Wisdom!!! self suffciency,independence, gradification and indulgence, intellectualism ,physical lust, emotionalism and spiritualism, secular humanism etc
They would have to be willingly ignorant, if they did not experience a sense or threat of danger, even reverential fear and apprehension when God gave the command and warning.
I would like to think they knew that by their decisions death was conditional and would be left to their choices, would'nt you agree.
If someone in authority such as Gov't and civil law said that to you, which they do daily, would you be submissive, regardless of your personal perspective and or feelings, because you fear loosing yor freedom, and possible life

In context to Jesus quoting," that you must hate your loved ones to actually follow him" you must understand He would not say the 2 greatest commands are to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself then contradict himself ,but in context to the scripture, hate meant to place second over your devotion to God, He uses it several times in scripture.

Roli
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
precept said:
Linwood...your argument puts the blame on God for not elightening Adam and Eve as to what is "right and wrong" before allowing them to be tempted by Satan.

Please show me where Satan is mentioned in the Eden story.
How do you know they were tempted by Satan?

Your argument does not bode well for the parent who doesn't demonstrate for the child how, that crossing the street without waiting for vehicular traffic to come to a standstill must result in the death of the demonstrating parent; for the child to learn the "right and wrong" of street crossing.

Not at all for I do not intend to withhold important knowledge from my child.
When I tell my child he/she should or should not do something I also tell them why .
This is important in order to raise a child who can think for him/herself.
God never told them why they shouldn`t eat from the tree and never gave them the ability to know that they were not supposed to.

It must certainly be sufficient for the inexperienced child to trust the judgement of a loving devoted parent; and any mistrust resulting in disobedience on the part of the inexperienced child must be seen as insubordination.

This is false.
If the parent isn`t deserving of trust then the lack of trust from the child is not insubordination.
It is common sense.
If Andrea yates eldest son had been able to escape her grasp and was alive today I would hardly deem him insubordinate for not trusting her.
I would call him anidiot if he did trust her.
A loving parent doesn`t punish his/her children for doing things they are unaware are "bad".
The loving parent most definately does not damn his/her children to eternal torment over his/her own inadequacies.


In like manner, our first parents were the children of an All Powerful, All Knowing Parent God...and mistrust in God on the part of Adam and Eve, coupled with their trust in Satan's explanation as to why they were forbidden to eat of the fruit of this particular tree, was disobedience in their not obeying God's command and insubordination of the highest order.

Perhaps you should read Genesis.
I see no loving God nor do I see any Satan in the story.
Niether Adam nor Eve had a "Mistrust" in God they were merely unaware of what was right and wrong.
The irony is that they became aware by doing what God said was wrong but.. it was actually right.

The point is they had no reason not to eat the fruit until they had already eaten the fruit.
So what if God said not to eat it?
How were they to know disobeying God was wrong if they didn`t have the knowledge of right and wrong to begin with?

It`s really kinda a sick twisted story.

The birth of irony.

The birth of irony.
Did she really deserve to be the mother of the worlds sins for all eternity?
Punished by a god for taking the knowledge that he denied her.
The same knowledge that would have allowed her to know the taking of it was wrong if only he`d have given it to her to begin with.
What would this world be like if she had never taken it at all?
Personally..I wouldn`t want to know.
I kind of like the way it turned out.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
roli said:
Response from Roli
Gen 2:17 If you recall ,God commands Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree ( they were left with a choice and free will, after given a command) maybe they did'nt see the consequences, much like most of us when we violate certain absolute universal and social laws and codes of ethics, going against the inner voice of Conscience within each of us.

You`re missing the point.
Adam and Eve were nothing like us.
They couldn`t possibly see the consequences because there was no such thing as consequences to them.
They didn`t have a conscience until they ate the fruit.
Again..they couldn`t have understood any code of ethics without the abilty to differentiate right from wrong and they couldn`t do that without eating the fruit.

Adam and Eve forfeited over their position of authority, dominion, & relationship to God upon there disobedience. They then saw the consequences were real when kicked out of the garden, but it was there that mankind was separated from God, then Jesus came to reconcile man to God.

They got the shaft.
It`s like your landlord telling you he`ll evict you if you hang pictures on the walls AFTER you`ve already hung the pictures.
The rule wasn`t in the original lease however.

He then begins to warn them of there impending consequences, if they disregard, violate and disobey the command.
Do you think they understood what He meant?,I certainly do!, Was it clear to them there was a choice left on their part and the wrong choice would lead to death.

No ..they could not have known what he meant simply because they didn`t know what was right and what was wrong.
Thats what they gained by eating the fruit, the knowledge God wanted withheld from them.


They were given options and were decieved by satan to question God and ultimately disobey
Saying ,"did God really say"," does He really mean that", "It won't be as bad as that", etc, much like philosopohical and intellectual debates hurling out reasoning, intellect,excuses,doubts ,questions and justifications towards God etc.

It wouldn`t matter if God did put the command out there as a debatable rule because they had no conscience to weigh the consequences with

Again..please show me where any verse in Genesis speaks of Satan.
Satan is not present in Genesis.
In fact they were not decieved by the Serpent they came into vast knowledge because of his act.
They came into knowledge they needed and God withheld.
The serpent is the good guy in this story.
He did not decieve in fact he proved that God decieved.

The fruit appealed to their desires. What is the fruit the allures mankind away from God today. Wisdom!!! self suffciency,independence, gradification and indulgence, intellectualism ,physical lust, emotionalism and spiritualism, secular humanism etc

Thank uhh..goodness for the above.

They would have to be willingly ignorant, if they did not experience a sense or threat of danger, even reverential fear and apprehension when God gave the command and warning.

No they were not willfully ignorant.
They were just as ingnorant as God wanted them to be.

If someone in authority such as Gov't and civil law said that to you, which they do daily, would you be submissive, regardless of your personal perspective and or feelings, because you fear loosing yor freedom, and possible life

No..I have been beaten and jailed due to my own beliefs.
I don`t submit easily to ignorance.

In context to Jesus quoting," that you must hate your loved ones to actually follow him" you must understand He would not say the 2 greatest commands are to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself then contradict himself ,but in context to the scripture, hate meant to place second over your devotion to God, He uses it several times in scripture.

You claim to know what Christ MEANT to say?
How do you know what he meant to say?
Were you there?
Do you know someone who was?
All the rest of us have to go on is his word in the NT and apparently you`re telling me he didn`t mean what he said.
Maybe he wouldn`t say it but the Bible says he did.
Is the Bible incorrect?
Or perhaps you`re reading into it something that is not there.
Jesus said many contradictory things.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
linwood said:
You`re missing the point.
Adam and Eve were nothing like us.
They couldn`t possibly see the consequences because there was no such thing as consequences to them.
They didn`t have a conscience until they ate the fruit.
Again..they couldn`t have understood any code of ethics without the abilty to differentiate right from wrong and they couldn`t do that without eating the fruit.
Roli says Excellent response
Gen 2: 16 -17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. consequences appear here to be eveident and clear
Adam & Eve were created without sin, and undefiled in God's image and likeness,until they sinned against God, their nature changed from God's nature to a nature of sin & rebellion, where man is today without Christ and frogiveness of sin
When I recieved Jesus as my savior , my nature changed immediately . I was restored to the original nature & condition as Adam & Eve,I became like them at my salvation.
Never make an absolute statement in regards to knowing the hidden mysteries of God , unless you experienced a conversion experience. You don't realise we are not just talking about a general topic, but almighty God, His power to convert and change those who seek him.
If I ate an apple and said to you, it was awesome, you may have had a similar experience with another apple, but not with the one I ate. I have also received revealation of the mysteries of God & eternal life only by witness of the spirit of God within me. I never experienced this before when I was an unbeliever.

Those who have not received Christ can never understand the things of God, the bible ,morals, heaven ,hell, sin , 10 commandments etc. Some common sense and self eveident truths might be somewhat understood ,
Those who chose to continually and purposefully refute and question the God of the bible, Jesus and the Holy Spirit,heaven , hell , sin etc., never really seem to achieve truth and closure to many of the issues they debate, but only more concepts, questions
.There inability to understand only hightens their quest and persistence to challenge the christian beliefs and concepts, therefore the debate continues.
I have never heard of a mutual understanding between a skeptic etc. and a christian believer. only progressive and aggressive pursuits of opinions and circular reasoning.
The bible is clear," the natural man ( without god)does not recieve the things of God, neither can he know them,they are foolishness to him, for they are spiritually discerned. God is a spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit and truth,
I experienced this ignorance of those things before I came to know Jesus as my savior
Those who look from outside in at the Father Son and & Holy Spirit can only catch a glimpse for the veil is still upon their eyes,

They got the shaft.
It`s like your landlord telling you he`ll evict you if you hang pictures on the walls AFTER you`ve already hung the pictures.
The rule wasn`t in the original lease however.
Were you there,Did you read the command in Gen 2:17 and then the warning. The landlord warned them, not to hang the pictures, did they listen? yes ,did they obey ?,no ,we don't have play by play action of all that took place in the garden, or for that matter the whole of creation and biblical times, but apparently,only the things God so deemed essential for us to know,


No ..they could not have known what he meant simply because they didn`t know what was right and what was wrong.
Thats what they gained by eating the fruit, the knowledge God wanted withheld from them.
If I said to you,from a position of authority, not to go home until your work is finished ,or your fired, what would be the thinking process of a rational mind,
Would you immediately know right from wrong after such a warning, at least comprehend it. be honest!
Would you see the consequences for your disobedience first, and then think of your livelyhood, maybe your family, debt, fear. maybe not in that particular order.
Do you expect me to believe they would not seriously consider the consequences, they would have to be seriously mentally detached from reality, and if they were created in God's image, I believe they were quite intelligent and conscious of the warning , dangers and immenit consequences.
God said in Gen 3 :22 .... now lest he ( man) put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever,v23. therfore He (God) cast man from the garden or(God's presence.)...24 and placed an angel to gaurd the tee of life
The reason they got kicked out was that they might take from the tree of eternal life,
and they lost that thru their disobedience

It wouldn`t matter if God did put the command out there as a debatable rule because they had no conscience to weigh the consequences with
What is there that is debatable when such an order or command from your boss was given to you, and the consequences clear and distinct. A conscience would have to be present when Adam and Eve were confronted and questioned by the serpent .
For her to say ,"but God said you shall not eat, nor touch, lest you die,
If she did not have a consciencem why would she even plea bargain

Again..please show me where any verse in Genesis speaks of Satan.
Satan is not present in Genesis.
In fact they were not decieved by the Serpent they came into vast knowledge because of his act.
They came into knowledge they needed and God withheld.
The serpent is the good guy in this story.
He did not decieve in fact he proved that God decieved.
Serpent is figuritive of a snake in the Hebrew and a creeping thing in the greek as God describes the serpent in Gen 3:14 that he was to go on his belly, eat dust
, Gen 3:14 God cursed satan ... put emnity between Jesus and the serpent
satan is a name given to the devil as is Lucifer,son of the morning , light bearer,morning star,the devil, father of lies , deciever, the thief, masks himself as an angel of light a wolf etc, etc, ,but does that do anyhting for you, I believe not because your here to refute and debate and not pursuit of truth.

If you were ,how could you possibly think the serpent helped Eve , he brought doubt and , speculation and questioned God's authority and command, decieved and lied , but , do you really see any of this.
Again how can I have a discussion with some who does not have revealtion of the topic we are discussing , how can you understand the bible without the spirit of God


Do you believe Jesus came to earth in the flesh, died for the sins of the world, was buried and rose again and defeated death, and will return soon to judge the world in his righteousness according to His standard of righteousness, regardless of concepts and arguements
Thank uhh..goodness for the above.



No they were not willfully ignorant.
They were just as ingnorant as God wanted them to be.
So, were they given the free will and ability to choose , apperently they had the freedom to chose and they chose to disobey and then shift the blame on the serpent , now he tempted them but did not make them sin
back to your boss , does he force you to continue to work ,no, he gives options, you choose who you will serve, your boss and keep your job or your self and get fired


No..I have been beaten and jailed due to my own beliefs.
I don`t submit easily to ignorance.



You claim to know what Christ MEANT to say?
How do you know what he meant to say?
Were you there?
Do you know someone who was?
All the rest of us have to go on is his word in the NT and apparently you`re telling me he didn`t mean what he said.
Maybe he wouldn`t say it but the Bible says he did.
Is the Bible incorrect?
Or perhaps you`re reading into it something that is not there.
Jesus said many contradictory things.
Again, you will never understand the word of God, it can not be interpreted by anybody, including the most intellectual and philosophical minds, scientists, mathmaticians, etc ,Jesus says unless you have the faith as alittle child you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, understand and interpret scripture , but will always have the liberty to refute , deny , question and argue it ,but where will that get you when you stand before him on judgement day
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Roli and Precept -

I can only imagine how a mind must work that is able to buy into this circular logic. No, wait - the attempts you are making to substantiate your point gives circular logic a bad name.
Both of you continue to ignore the points made by both Linwood and Rex. All they are asking you to do is defend the statements you are making or the positions you take. Not only do you not defend your statements or positions, you revert to the same argument over and over again.
"The Bible is right, if you need proof, just check out what the Bible has to say on the subject". This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. I know - you can't use logic and reasoning when it comes to God and the Bible - this statement is begging the question itself.

The bottom line for both of you is that you have what is known as revealed faith. That is to say that you do not need logic, reason, or rational thought to believe in God (or the Bible, apparently). That is fine, and I'm sure you don't need my approval. You do need to grasp one fundamental concept - people that do not share your ability to buy into revealed faith use logic, reason, and rational thought to reach what we consider to be the truth.

Here comes the zinger - you're belief that you are right is no more valid than ours is. As a matter of fact, you are most certainly wrong. Well, not really, but I enjoy telling you that, since you seem to take such strength in telling us that we are going to Hell. You are in for a rude awakening when you pass from this earth and it is nothing but "game over". No angels with wings, no harps, no streets of gold. Nothing. You might as well hope for the transmigration of souls.

You ask - what makes you think you are right? Well, I know I am right because I said I was right. Simple, really.

Thanks,
TVOR
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
roli said:
but where will that get you when you stand before him on judgement day


Why...I`ll be in the perfect position to tell him how arrogant, self-absorbed, and ..evil... he is to his face.

That`ll be fun.

Edit:
That is if you can see his face or ..not..I dunno.
There`s another contradiction.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
"but where will that get you when you stand before him on judgement day "

what i do rite now will judge me. then whatever my concequences are, i get reborn! or unless i break the cycle of samasa and become one with the Spirit.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Just a friendly reminder to all that we need to stay on topic. This is a biblical debate addressing the question "Are the Ten Commandments Truth?" Please try to confine all comments to this topic.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
I realised circular reasoning was on the horizon. I will be more consciously active and try not to get caught up in it again. Although, it comes up and takes you unaware.

Back to the topic at hand, Are the 10 Commandments truth?
What is truth anyways ? Some say it is relative, based on conditional , situational and personal positions.
That means I call the shots,I decide what is right or wrong, I kind of like that feeling and see why others would as well, it is somewhat empowering to have the liberty to call something truth as I percieve it. but ,"Truth is not relative" upon personal discretion
Tell that to the laws that allow and support the oxygen you breath,gases that are so properly mixed they suport all living things, the biological and physiological laws that regulate and govern cell structure generation, repairing and producing life as we know it.
Can you Convince me there are no absolute laws of truth controlling those situations.
How can it be truth if it is left to us to percieve our own interpretations.
Truth has to be truth, despite how we percieve it to be.
I don't think I make the 10 Commands truth because I offered my superior reasoning or intellect and or even my faith, it has no bearing on whether it is or is not truth.
Truth has been eternally existent, regardless of time, culture, history, or location .
Truth must be consistent or it simply not truth, as I understand it to be.
I believe truth is absolute not based on perceptions ,rationale or logic
Are there several truths within such a topical discussion as the 10 Commands or 1truth.
Two or more of us may all have different concepts or beliefs of a particular topic , does that make them all truth.
Is there not only 1 truth in every individual situation.
The sun is yellow , you say it is orange, is there factual truth to it's actual colour
If there really is one truth that we all seek for , why are there so many claims of people finding truth.
I may say, I as I am walking down a highway, I don't see any trucks on the road, I am therefore safe, as I percieve it to be based on my sensory perception, it's really all we got.
I won't get hurt and am safe, does that change the truth, that around the corner an 18 wheeler is travelling at 120km/hr, my body will meet that truck and truth will be revealed to me and my body and that truck, driver and those looking on or after.
Are the 10 commands truth, to me, yes, because I can percieve by divine revealtion thru the Holy Spirit they are absolute truth,
 
Top