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what do you think?

Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Levite said:
OK, it seems fairly clear that you are not interested in understanding how the culture that actually produced these texts has read or understood them.

Your agenda seems unfortunately full of anger to me, but whatever: I wish you well with it.

But I'm done with trying to explain what you have already decided is unjustifiable.
Click to expand...


Actually I have read quite a bit of Midrash, and have several Midrash sites in my favorites, and as I said, I also understand how this keeps texts current.

However, all the religions of Abraham are now backpedaling and changing the Biblical image of their God, to soften and make him more palatable to the masses.


Anyway, I'm not angry, Go in peace. :)



*
 
SoulDaemon

SoulDaemon

Member
..but people are the ones doing the oppression.
using "Gods allowance" to justify oppression/blame god is bs.

Those who are power hungry oppressors are acting on Gods allowance?.
They are acting because people allow them to, and then they are not siding with God.

People should act against oppressive people.

It is sometimes hard to act, cos it could mean a better life and future for others and death to you. But that is the reality of things in some places.

That is why, those who have it "good" should not take it for granted, and open their mouths and act when there is something wrong.

Living by the phrase "The Lord giveth and The Lord taketh away" really is a good way to f*** yourself up.

Just my opinion. Any thoughts?
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
Ingledsva said:
I don't agree with that at all - because the story tells us YHVH plotted it ahead so he could do the plagues!


Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that I may multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:4 And Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great afflictions.

SO...

"YHVH says HE will harden pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the Hebrew go - so he can flash some special murderous magic.

He then proceeds to send wave after wave of horrors on ALL the people.
Ending with the MURDER of their first born!

Because they wouldn't let the Hebrew go - when HE was PREVENTING pharaoh form letting them go!


That is psycho.



*
Click to expand...

:) ! In another topic I stated that God was a monster. I felt bad about saying that, but sheesh!
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
Levite said:
OK, it seems fairly clear that you are not interested in understanding how the culture that actually produced these texts has read or understood them.

Your agenda seems unfortunately full of anger to me, but whatever: I wish you well with it.

But I'm done with trying to explain what you have already decided is unjustifiable.
Click to expand...

When you introduce the concept of "culture" you create a whole new discussion :) . The discusion goes from what is written for all to read as history to the forces at play in the social dynamics of a group of people and the actions of that group of people that are or were created by those forces. One could say that the Jewish folk are wonderful people (which they are) which is mirrored by their culture and that because of this, they see their G-d as wonderful. The only problem with this wonderful is that it is contained in oral tradition which is generally not made available to all who may be interested. Along with this is that oral tradition is in Hebrew. This is because you can only truely understand the Tora if you are able to understand spoken Hebrew because the written Hebrew of the old days did not contain any vowels.

This adds up to the Old Testament does not say what it says, only the oral version actaully says what it says. Thus the Old Testament without the oral version is of questionable value. Yes the Old Testament is the word of G-d, but the "key" to understanding this written word of G-d is missing.
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
Levite said:
OK, it seems fairly clear that you are not interested in understanding how the culture that actually produced these texts has read or understood them.

Your agenda seems unfortunately full of anger to me, but whatever: I wish you well with it.

But I'm done with trying to explain what you have already decided is unjustifiable.
Click to expand...

Footnoot: And I would like to say that yes Ingle does have a high adrenal approach to things but she is not angry, she just enjoys a good "donnybrook". If the truth be known she can argue either side of an argument equally well, she just chooses the side that she chooses because it is way to much fun :) . Anyway, Ingle is not actually angry, she is just focused. I like her.
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
mystic64 said:
When you introduce the concept of "culture" you create a whole new discussion. The discusion goes from what is written for all to read as history to the forces at play in the social dynamics of a group of people and the actions of that group of people that are or were created by those forces. One could say that the Jewish folk are wonderful people (which they are) which is mirrored by their culture and that because of this, they see their G-d as wonderful. The only problem with this wonderful is that it is contained in oral tradition which is generally not made available to all who may be interested. Along with this is that oral tradition is in Hebrew. This is because you can only truely understand the Tora if you are able to understand spoken Hebrew because the written Hebrew of the old days did not contain any vowels.

This adds up to the Old Testament does not say what it says, only the oral version actaully says what it says. Thus the Old Testament without the oral version is of questionable value. Yes the Old Testament is the word of G-d, but the "key" to understanding this written word of G-d is missing.
Click to expand...

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah are parts of the same whole. They are not like a lock and key, but like a book: the Written Torah essentially gives chapter headings and some summary points, but the Oral Torah gives the rest of the text. It ultimately has little to do with vowel markings-- modern Hebrew is also often written without vowels-- and more to do with both the patterns of Jewish thought through the ages, the viewing of any given text in fuller context, and the ability to make interpretive connections or exegeses using the tools of the Oral Torah and the precedents and examples shown us by our Rabbis.

These things are in Hebrew because that is the Jewish language (and Aramaic because we often spoke that also), and these are Jewish scriptures. They were never intended for non-Jewish use-- Judaism is not universalist, and presumes that its texts and theologies are for Jews, and non-Jews presumably have their own effective ways of relating to God and creating justice in society.

Non-Jews are welcome to learn and study our scriptures, but serious study and real comprehension demands learning Hebrew and Aramaic. Especially when it comes to Talmud, the texts involved are singularly difficult to render into other languages, as much is made of word-play, subtle allusion, resonance based on similarities of root or construction or homophones, and many other such devices of language and literature. Even trained students with good knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic often have to puzzle out with considerable effort what the Rabbis are really saying, and what the range of implications are. The experience of interacting with the text simply cannot be accurately recreated in translation.

Torah (in its widest sense, encompassing all of Tanach, and all of Oral Torah) is immense, complex, filled with multiple meanings, and subject to considerable debate and discussion. It is not simple, and attempting to treat it as such will simply not result in sophisticated understanding of either text or tradition.

We don't try to keep knowledge hidden, but Torah is what it is, and most non-Jews-- heck, many Jews today, even-- simply refuse to invest the time and effort to acquire the knowledge and skills in order to comprehend and utilize our texts. Which is perfectly fair-- no one should be forced to do what they don't want to do-- but that also means that such people must be willing to accept that their understanding of Jewish scripture and tradition is, at best, partial and limited, at worst, misunderstood and erroneous.
 
Gjallarhorn

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
Hawkins said:
God gives you a chance to remain weak within a 70-year life span, then to be strong in a time frame of infinity. Or vice versa.
Click to expand...

So your conception of God is one that bullies people inherently gifted with better skills than others. Brilliant!
 
Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
LuisDantas said:
Deuteronomy 20 and 21 are worse yet.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and did you notice all this war and murder is because "supposedly" YHVH has given the land to them, and they are murdering the owners?


Deu 1:7 Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites, and unto all the places nigh thereunto, in the plain, in the hills, and in the vale, and in the south, and by the sea side, to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates.

Deu 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.


Deu 3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.


Deu 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

Deu 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:


Deu 9:1 Hear, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to possess nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and fenced up to heaven,


Deu 11:23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.

Deu 11:24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.


Deu 12:1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.

Deu 12:2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:

Deu 12:10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;


Deu 20:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
Deu 20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Deu 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:


These people under Moses, - claim YHVH gave them the land, - then march through other people's land, destroying, murdering, and enslaving.

The previous book is more of the same.



*
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
Levite said:
The Written Torah and the Oral Torah are parts of the same whole. They are not like a lock and key, but like a book: the Written Torah essentially gives chapter headings and some summary points, but the Oral Torah gives the rest of the text. It ultimately has little to do with vowel markings-- modern Hebrew is also often written without vowels-- and more to do with both the patterns of Jewish thought through the ages, the viewing of any given text in fuller context, and the ability to make interpretive connections or exegeses using the tools of the Oral Torah and the precedents and examples shown us by our Rabbis.

These things are in Hebrew because that is the Jewish language (and Aramaic because we often spoke that also), and these are Jewish scriptures. They were never intended for non-Jewish use-- Judaism is not universalist, and presumes that its texts and theologies are for Jews, and non-Jews presumably have their own effective ways of relating to God and creating justice in society.

Non-Jews are welcome to learn and study our scriptures, but serious study and real comprehension demands learning Hebrew and Aramaic. Especially when it comes to Talmud, the texts involved are singularly difficult to render into other languages, as much is made of word-play, subtle allusion, resonance based on similarities of root or construction or homophones, and many other such devices of language and literature. Even trained students with good knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic often have to puzzle out with considerable effort what the Rabbis are really saying, and what the range of implications are. The experience of interacting with the text simply cannot be accurately recreated in translation.

Torah (in its widest sense, encompassing all of Tanach, and all of Oral Torah) is immense, complex, filled with multiple meanings, and subject to considerable debate and discussion. It is not simple, and attempting to treat it as such will simply not result in sophisticated understanding of either text or tradition.

We don't try to keep knowledge hidden, but Torah is what it is, and most non-Jews-- heck, many Jews today, even-- simply refuse to invest the time and effort to acquire the knowledge and skills in order to comprehend and utilize our texts. Which is perfectly fair-- no one should be forced to do what they don't want to do-- but that also means that such people must be willing to accept that their understanding of Jewish scripture and tradition is, at best, partial and limited, at worst, misunderstood and erroneous.
Click to expand...

Thank you Levite for your very well spoken information, it was very helpful. And what you say about Jewish scripture and tradition is also true with all other religions :) which is what makes it fun to discuss religion with others that speak in absolutes :) . I am a die hard Christian, but not because of written scripture, dogma, or tradition, but because I have over the years had a personal experience with Jesus as an entity. To me the discussion of religion is just an intellectual game that I injoy playing, with the understanding that I am careful to not destroy anybody's faith nomatter what religion they are. And I do feel that the Jewish race is a special race who's linage goes back to at least 60 million years ago, back to when the "Earth was watered by dew." Back before the extinction event that wiped out the dinosaurs. I think that Christians need to add some zeros to the ages of the "Begots" folks :) .
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
mystic64 said:
Thank you Levite for your very well spoken information, it was very helpful. And what you say about Jewish scripture and tradition is also true with all other religions :) which is what makes it fun to discuss religion with others that speak in absolutes :) . I am a die hard Christian, but not because of written scripture, dogma, or tradition, but because I have over the years had a personal experience with Jesus as an entity. To me the discussion of religion is just an intellectual game that I injoy playing, with the understanding that I am careful to not destroy anybody's faith nomatter what religion they are.
Click to expand...

OK, I can understand that, and get behind it.

And I do feel that the Jewish race is a special race who's linage goes back to at least 60 million years ago, back to when the "Earth was watered by dew." Back before the extinction event that wiped out the dinosaurs. I think that Christians need to add some zeros to the ages of the "Begots" folks :) .
Click to expand...

Um...what?!
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
Levite said:
OK, I can understand that, and get behind it.



Um...what?!
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Um...what? I know :) it is a bit over the top for a cookie, to use an American expression. But at the sametime if there is some fact to Genesis then it has to correlate with science some how, which would put the garden of Eden somewhere well over 60 million years ago. On the surface the whole thing sounds scientificly impossible, but at the same time today's science is in its infancy with a lot more growing up to do. So we will see on that one :) . Also Genesis 1-7 is the key to creating and understanding the math that explains the big bang theory and the boundries of the section of Creation that we exist in. But that is also another story that will be told and understood in the future because at this time science is busy trying to do it the hard way, which is probably ok, "all things in their own time."
 
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