Why do Christians even care about money?

Yadon · Mar 15, 2014

Another post of mine brought this thought to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UFqIucFW0Q

Jesus was pretty well known for talking about the poor and feeding the hungry, about paying your taxes and telling people rich people don't go to heaven. He also told his disciples to leave behind most everything to follow him, and to live humbly. In the letters to the Churches by the apostles at least one of the letters said to live frugally.

So why then would Evangelicals be Libertarians and care about the ability to get rich? In no way does any of the more Left-Wing economic models stop rich people in America from being rich, they will always be the richest people by a very large margin. They are just told to pull their own weight by paying their fair share of the taxes (percentage wise the rich pay less taxes, the richer you are the more loopholes you will find). It was actually calculated that if the richest people paid all their taxes without loopholes, not only would they still have an insane amount of money, but that that alone would pay for ALL social programs twice over. Just by getting rid of loopholes.

But they don't want to do this, instead they want more tax breaks, subsidies they don't need, more bail outs, and more government assistance despite being the true abusers of the system with putting in less than they get out of it. Simply put, they are greedy.

It is naive to think that the vast majority such rich men are not greedy, with billions of dollars. If it was a matter of hard work and so fair, there would be so many more rich people. Studies have shown that the lower classes work more hours and harder than the upper classes, simply to make ends meet. The upper class tends to get there by being born in privileged parts of society that give them and advantage (being born into wealth) in schools and investment (if your poor and invest you can't jump back, a person born of wealth can loose 5 houses in an investment but still have a house and a few million, an average person would never recover from that), or by playing the system.

Neither of those seem very fair or honest to say that it's matter of hard work or fairness.

I sincerely urge any Chrisitans who support a liberterian style economy to read the Bible, specifically the actions and words of Jesus Christ, and consider what would be most Christ like. It is my honestly held opinion that Jesus would treat Wallstreet, the GOP and the 1% as the Pharisees of today. They lie so that they may take from the people of America what the people of America rightfully deserve; the fruits of all our labor and hard work. If the upper class would pay their taxes without loopholes ALL of America would benefit and we wouldn't need to worry about the programs that the working class obviously deserves. This wouldn't even hurt the upper class, they would still be insanely rich.

DreadFish · Mar 15, 2014

It's ok, they don't have to actually do those things to be less materialistic and more compassionate to others, their faith is enough to save them.

Jeremy Mason · Mar 15, 2014

Good post. I totally agree with you. There are many bomb-slinging, money hoarding so-called christians out there, that it makes it hard to get the true message acrossed.

esmith · Mar 15, 2014

It appears that you are basing your philosophy on a utopian society with a identical gene pool, where everything is fair; that if you work hard you deserve to be rich and successful. However life isnt fair. To put it in simplistic form, if life was fair then everyone would be equal. Can you play baseball at the level of just the average minor league player, let alone a major league player? Say, you practiced every day since you were 10 years old, you worked hard but you just do not have the natural talent to attain the proficiency of a major league player. Is it fair? No, it is just the way your abilities were pre-ordained within your genetic gene pool. Lets get real basic. Given two brothers that go into farming, both appear to work just as hard as the other; however, one fails and the other succeeds. Why? Did one really work harder than the other, or was it something that neither had any control over, crop selection, unforeseen natural occurrences, or a myriad of other possibilities. Can everyone be a Bill Gates, Mike Zuckerberg, Ludwig van Beethoven, Willie Mays, Howard Schultz, Shahid Khan, Oprah Winfrey, or a host of others who made it on their own?
You have indicated that you consider conservatives as cold hearted that could care less about others and the liberals are the most caring. Well, it appears that you have either havent done any investigating or have been listening to the wrong people. It is a well known fact that conservatives give considerably more to charities than liberals. Think Im wrong? Research it and you will find that I am right. Just to help, read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html.
You seem to think that if you taxed the rich all the problems would be solved. Seems that you are again having problems with the facts; if the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. So, just how much does the federal government spend just on cash and cash-like programs and healthcare? According to This Article about $435.5 billion on just these two programs. So, it appears that you are a little bit off on your assumption. We still have billions of dollars that are spent by the federal government.
Just one other little question for you. Do you know what you mean by libertarian style economy and if so how does this relate to what Christians think.

technomage · Mar 15, 2014

Yadon said:
So why then would Evangelicals be Libertarians and care about the ability to get rich?

Because they (in Christian parlance) worship Mammon in the name of Christ. Come to think of it, there are statements attributed to Jesus that perfectly describe such behavior--Matthew 23:1-36 seems apt.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 15, 2014

I was pondering this the other day. My conclusion, even though not a sound, logical, or rational conclusion, is still quite sound, logical, and rational given the gap between the Bible I have read, and what is practiced by these Christians that whore themselves out for money. My conclusion is they are simply reading a different Bible.

esmith said:
It appears that you are basing your philosophy on a utopian society with a identical gene pool, where everything is fair; that if you work hard you deserve to be rich and successful. However life isn’t fair. To put it in simplistic form, if life was fair then everyone would be equal. Can you play baseball at the level of just the average minor league player, let alone a major league player? Say, you practiced every day since you were 10 years old, you worked hard but you just do not have the “natural” talent to attain the proficiency of a major league player. Is it fair? No, it is just the way your abilities were pre-ordained within your genetic gene pool. Let’s get real basic. Given two brothers that go into farming, both appear to work just as hard as the other; however, one fails and the other succeeds. Why? Did one really work harder than the other, or was it something that neither had any control over, crop selection, unforeseen natural occurrences, or a myriad of other possibilities. Can everyone be a Bill Gates, Mike Zuckerberg, Ludwig van Beethoven, Willie Mays, Howard Schultz, Shahid Khan, Oprah Winfrey, or a host of others who made it on their own?
You have indicated that you consider conservatives as cold hearted that could care less about others and the liberals are the most caring. Well, it appears that you have either haven’t done any investigating or have been listening to the wrong people. It is a well known fact that conservatives give considerably more to charities than liberals. Think I’m wrong? Research it and you will find that I am right. Just to help, read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html.
You seem to think that if you taxed the rich all the problems would be solved. Seems that you are again having problems with the facts; if the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. So, just how much does the federal government spend just on cash and cash-like programs and healthcare? According to This Article about $435.5 billion on just these two programs. So, it appears that you are a little bit off on your assumption. We still have billions of dollars that are spent by the federal government.
Just one other little question for you. Do you know what you mean by libertarian style economy and if so how does this relate to what “Christians” think.

There is no utopian views, or anything like that. Jesus said a rich man cannot get into Heaven, to be a follower of his you must sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, you are to have compassion for the poor, you are to take care of the poor, you are to hold the poor in a much higher position in your heart than any king. Jesus said to pay your taxes, not dodge them and take every break you can get. You'll have a very hard time convincing me he would support lowering taxes (which lets the rich keep more of the money he told them they are not to keep and hoard) and cutting welfare assistance (which clearly goes against everything Jesus said and taught about the poor).
And as for your "who gives more" how do you really even track such a thing? Jesus said you aren't supposed to gloat about your accomplishments, for that is only worth an earthly reward, but to be humble in your givings is to earn eternal reward. Are we counting tithe plate donations, money dropped in a Pals-for-Paws can, buying food for a hungry family, how do we actually measure this? And rather than dollar-for-dollar, why should we not look at overall percentage? After all, if someone makes 1 million dollars donates $10,000 dollars, that is only a .01% donation of their total income (keep in mind this is a general example). But if someone who makes $50,000 donates $5,000, though less money, is a greater donation of income at .1%. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
And no, of course tax increases aren't the only fix. We have wasteful farm subsidies that go to people who are not actually farmers, we, as tax payers, front the bill for oil expenditures, we front the bill for corporate expansion, we front the bill to pay for military machines that are obsolete and will never be used, we front the bill to keep military bases open where there has not been any conflict for several decades, we have to eat the taxes mega-corporations dodge and reduce to zero or a negative amount, and we are paying for so many other wasteful things that if the government cut these, then people who do want less food-stamps, housing assistance, and other programs really would look like cold-hearted ******** because the real waste has been eliminated. Oh yeah, and if Indiana does eliminate corporate taxes like the new governor wants, the nearby city will be, yet again, greatly devastated as tax dollars from Chrysler and Delphi make up a massive contribution towards city taxes.

tytlyf · Mar 15, 2014

esmith said:
It is a well known fact that conservatives give considerably more to charities than liberals. Think Im wrong? Research it and you will find that I am right. Just to help, read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html.

Well, the majority of the donations go to religious activities. If you take that away, Liberals give more. I find it funny to give excuses as to why you vote conservative. Do you vote that way because they give more to charities (church)? After all, the bible commands 10% of your wealth.
I don't vote based on who gives to charity. I vote based on who controls the party. In the conservative case, they are controlled by the Kochs. If they Kochs get out of the way, I'd consider a republican.

esmith · Mar 15, 2014

tytlyf said:
Well, the majority of the donations go to religious activities. If you take that away, Liberals give more. I find it funny to give excuses as to why you vote conservative. Do you vote that way because they give more to charities (church)? After all, the bible commands 10% of your wealth.
I don't vote based on who gives to charity. I vote based on who controls the party. In the conservative case, they are controlled by the Kochs. If they Kochs get out of the way, I'd consider a republican.

Where have you drawn the conclusion that I vote based on who gives what to charity. It really amazes me how you come to your ridiculous conclusions. I also might consider your points if you didn't, in my opinion, have such a one-track mind and would stop your ridiculous rantings on the Koch brothers, it really gets old after awhile.

Huey09 · Mar 15, 2014

Well, I know I don't speak for every christian but, I just want a moderate living. If I have money I usually give a part 20% to charity I used to go to church and give but I left when I kept seeing that my preacher had on designer suits and a lexus and talked about jesus giving to the poor. Utter hypocrisy. And made me leave christianity for a while but I'm back (for now anyway.) And I try to emulate Jesus by never wearing flashy clothes(in fact I only have one suit) and not judging others harshly save for blatant disregard for doing the right thing. Just my experience anyway if its helps.

tytlyf · Mar 15, 2014

esmith said:
Where have you drawn the conclusion that I vote based on who gives what to charity. It really amazes me how you come to your ridiculous conclusions. I also might consider your points if you didn't, in my opinion, have such a one-track mind and would stop your ridiculous rantings on the Koch brothers, it really gets old after awhile.

You brought it up, not me. As if to seem superior to Democrats. I just read the article and not just the headline.
I will not lay off the Koch's because they do nothing for our country except pollute and buy the republican candidates via media (propaganda.) Sorry you don't see it, but you're one of their target audience. Same goes for fox.

Amechania · Mar 15, 2014

I think Jesus said it was difficult for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom of God, but with God all things are possible. When he told the young man to sell everything he had and follow him it was only after the young man had answered correctly about loving god and neighbor, but wasn't satisfied with Jesus' confirmation of his existing beliefs. Let's not overestimate Jesus' commitment to poverty or condemnation of private enterprise.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 16, 2014

Amechania said:
I think Jesus said it was difficult for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom of God, but with God all things are possible. When he told the young man to sell everything he had and follow him it was only after the young man had answered correctly about loving god and neighbor, but wasn't satisfied with Jesus' confirmation of his existing beliefs. Let's not overestimate Jesus' commitment to poverty or condemnation of private enterprise.

It's pretty hard to overestimate Jesus' commitment towards poverty.
(Luke 14:13) But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind
(Duet 15:11)For the poor will never cease to be in the land; therefore I command you, saying, `You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.'
(Isiah 1:10)
Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey!

The Bible is filled with verses that command taking care of the poor. The way Jesus humbled himself throughout the Gospels demonstrates that for a Christian to be Christ-like, then being anything but humble and having great love and care for the poor is inappropriate. Love is a major theme of Jesus' teachings, and love of the poor is a major theme of Jesus' love.

Yadon · Mar 16, 2014

esmith said:
It appears that you are basing your philosophy on a utopian society with a identical gene pool, where everything is fair; that if you work hard you deserve to be rich and successful. However life isn’t fair. To put it in simplistic form, if life was fair then everyone would be equal. Can you play baseball at the level of just the average minor league player, let alone a major league player? Say, you practiced every day since you were 10 years old, you worked hard but you just do not have the “natural” talent to attain the proficiency of a major league player. Is it fair? No, it is just the way your abilities were pre-ordained within your genetic gene pool. Let’s get real basic. Given two brothers that go into farming, both appear to work just as hard as the other; however, one fails and the other succeeds. Why? Did one really work harder than the other, or was it something that neither had any control over, crop selection, unforeseen natural occurrences, or a myriad of other possibilities. Can everyone be a Bill Gates, Mike Zuckerberg, Ludwig van Beethoven, Willie Mays, Howard Schultz, Shahid Khan, Oprah Winfrey, or a host of others who made it on their own?
You have indicated that you consider conservatives as cold hearted that could care less about others and the liberals are the most caring. Well, it appears that you have either haven’t done any investigating or have been listening to the wrong people. It is a well known fact that conservatives give considerably more to charities than liberals. Think I’m wrong? Research it and you will find that I am right. Just to help, read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html.
You seem to think that if you taxed the rich all the problems would be solved. Seems that you are again having problems with the facts; if the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. So, just how much does the federal government spend just on cash and cash-like programs and healthcare? According to This Article about $435.5 billion on just these two programs. So, it appears that you are a little bit off on your assumption. We still have billions of dollars that are spent by the federal government.
Just one other little question for you. Do you know what you mean by libertarian style economy and if so how does this relate to what “Christians” think.

Please, if your going to accuse me of taking certain positons do so by backing up your claims. I don't think that conservatives are "cold" or "heartless", I think they are a mix of ignorant tools, greedy ********, people set in their ways and afraid of the changes to society based on their morality (oh noes a man wants to marry a man!), and some are just plain ******* idiots to be honest. There are two kinds of conservationism here, social and economic. I was addressing economic. There are many caring and intellegent conservatives but I often find they read a lot of misinformation or their values are just different, yet for some reason they find that they should exclude everyone and not just themselves from certain things. Don't believe in food stamps? dont get them. dont believe in homosexuality? dont **** someone of the same gender. but why should you stop OTHER PEOPLE from doing that? So long as they are not hurting anyone that is their right, and at least stuff like food stamps helps people in rough patches. the vast majority of welfare recipents are working at least one job, often times two.

Actually going into minimum wage, if it had increased with productivity and inflation we probably wouldn't need many, many of these programs. Does anyone remember when walmart had a food drive for their own employees instead of just giving them raises so they can afford to eat? Of all the ******* corporations walmart is the least likely to ever go out of buisness or have financial problems.

As far as liberals, I don't think they are "caring", I think that some are erratic/irrational, some sensible, some don't really know **** or are just hypocrites, and some are intelligent people with well thought out and formed opinions.

I will have to find my source again about the price social programs, however the upper class is not paying their fair share of taxes, so my points still stand about how 'not giving onto Caesar" what he called for and instead forcing that burden on the middle class and lower class is basically straight up evil. They are supposed to pay a certain rate, but pay much lower rate than the other classes and get favortism, even though if they just played by the rules the would literally be more than fine and still insanely rich. millions and billions sitting around constantly growing due to how theyve rigged the game anyway wil lhappen reguardless if they pay what the predetermined amount is.

Revoltingest · Mar 16, 2014

Yadon said:
Jesus was pretty well known for talking about the poor and feeding the hungry, about paying your taxes and telling people rich people don't go to heaven. He also told his disciples to leave behind most everything to follow him, and to live humbly. In the letters to the Churches by the apostles at least one of the letters said to live frugally.

So why then would Evangelicals be Libertarians and care about the ability to get rich?

Easy!
Tis the same reason Libertarians like free markets, capitalism & wealth....it
let's us do what we want. I've heard of nothing in Xianity to make that a sin.

Yadon said:
But they don't want to do this, instead they want more tax breaks, subsidies they don't need, more bail outs, and more government assistance despite being the true abusers of the system with putting in less than they get out of it. Simply put, they are greedy.

Here you erroneously confuse economic conservatives & Libertarians with the style of socialism
favored by Republicrats, ie, crony capitalism. Subsidies & bailouts are not our way.

Yadon · Mar 16, 2014

Revoltingest said:
Easy!
Tis the same reason Libertarians like free markets, capitalism & wealth....it
let's us do what we want. I've heard of nothing in Xianity to make that a sin.

Except that the precepts of Christianity does have restrictions on what you can and cannot do, and what they support in this case is in direct violation of their own Messiah's teachings. If they like it and are in favor of it than they are hypocrites.

Here you erroneously confuse economic conservatives & Libertarians with the style of socialism
favored by Republicrats, ie, crony capitalism. Subsidies & bailouts are not our way.

If capitalism can truly work fairly and we can remove corruption than I am all for it, but as it stands there will probably always need to be some aspects of socialism to keep society running smoothly (police, schools, fire department ect). But as it stands right now the vast majority of congress is in there because crony capitalists paid for them to get in there, and so owe them big time. It's a vicious cycle of business controlling government. There needs to be limits on corporations and such groups or insanely rich individuals from abusing the elections by having their interests constantly being for the most part the main concern in office over that of the American people. (For example, reverse the decision that gave cooperations the same rights as individuals, for a starter)

Those people already have it made, they are like a kid who ate a fat slice of the cake and decided to bribe mom into eating more of the cake and giving a very unfairly small amount to the other kids. He couldn't be satisified with the fat slice much, much bigger than everyone else's that he got legitimately, he now wants most of the cake and is getting it by cheating. It's that kind I want to stop, and that kind I'm referring to and that I believe you mean when you talk about crony capitalism, but is the majority of those rich unfortunately, as having a lot of money tends to become addictive because of the life style and you just want to make more and more. Just seeing the numbers is an ego boost.

We need more rich people like Bill Gates, though even perhaps not as extreme as him, hell give away half of your few billions or millions, you would still be a billionaire or millionaire, and still insanely rich. Unless you plan on buying a country I don't think your lifestyle and entire existence will notice other than some different figures appear on your bank statements.

technomage · Mar 16, 2014

esmith said:
It appears that you are basing your philosophy on a utopian society with a identical gene pool, where everything is fair; that if you work hard you deserve to be rich and successful. However life isnt fair. To put it in simplistic form, if life was fair then everyone would be equal. Can you play baseball at the level of just the average minor league player, let alone a major league player? Say, you practiced every day since you were 10 years old, you worked hard but you just do not have the natural talent to attain the proficiency of a major league player. Is it fair? No, it is just the way your abilities were pre-ordained within your genetic gene pool. Lets get real basic. Given two brothers that go into farming, both appear to work just as hard as the other; however, one fails and the other succeeds. Why? Did one really work harder than the other, or was it something that neither had any control over, crop selection, unforeseen natural occurrences, or a myriad of other possibilities. Can everyone be a Bill Gates, Mike Zuckerberg, Ludwig van Beethoven, Willie Mays, Howard Schultz, Shahid Khan, Oprah Winfrey, or a host of others who made it on their own?
You have indicated that you consider conservatives as cold hearted that could care less about others and the liberals are the most caring. Well, it appears that you have either havent done any investigating or have been listening to the wrong people. It is a well known fact that conservatives give considerably more to charities than liberals. Think Im wrong? Research it and you will find that I am right. Just to help, read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html.
You seem to think that if you taxed the rich all the problems would be solved. Seems that you are again having problems with the facts; if the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. So, just how much does the federal government spend just on cash and cash-like programs and healthcare? According to This Article about $435.5 billion on just these two programs. So, it appears that you are a little bit off on your assumption. We still have billions of dollars that are spent by the federal government.
Just one other little question for you. Do you know what you mean by libertarian style economy and if so how does this relate to what Christians think.

Yadon, as I said--the above is what Mammon worship looks like today.

Most Christians think they worship God, and that Mammon serves them. They fail to realize who is the master, and who is the servant.

Yadon · Mar 16, 2014

technomage said:
Yadon, as I said--the above is what Mammon worship looks like today.

Most Christians think they worship God, and that Mammon serves them. They fail to realize who is the master, and who is the servant.

I'm sorry that I didn't respond earlier, but I'm not familiar with the term Mammon is why.

Edit: I just assumed at the time that it was some gnostic concept about the evils of the material world, I think I've heard it used in a similar context before.

technomage · Mar 16, 2014

Yadon said:
I'm sorry that I didn't respond earlier, but I'm not familiar with the term Mammon is why.

"Mammon" is most likely from the Aramaic word "mamon," which simply means "wealth, riches, money." Many Christians think, incorrectly, that Mammon is some form of pagan god of greed ... it is not. It's simply a term for money.

Think about how much time most Christians actually spend in church, as compared to the time they spend making money, spending money, _celebrating_ their money, enjoying their money ... and so on. Most Christians today actually spend far more time worshiping money than they do "God".

Revoltingest · Mar 16, 2014

Yadon said:
Except that the precepts of Christianity does have restrictions on what you can and cannot do, and what they support in this case is in direct violation of their own Messiah's teachings. If they like it and are in favor of it than they are hypocrites.

That would be the interpretation of some Xians.
But I know many who believe otherwise.
Also, I've not heard a strong scriptural argument that libertarian economics is sinful.

If capitalism can truly work fairly and we can remove corruption than I am all for it, but as it stands there will probably always need to be some aspects of socialism to keep society running smoothly (police, schools, fire department ect). But as it stands right now the vast majority of congress is in there because crony capitalists paid for them to get in there, and so owe them big time. It's a vicious cycle of business controlling government.

Your post was about conservative & libertarian economics, which does not approve
of what you criticize, eg, crony capitalism, corruption. Yes, those are awful things.

There needs to be limits on corporations and such groups or insanely rich individuals from abusing the elections by having their interests constantly being for the most part the main concern in office over that of the American people. (For example, reverse the decision that gave cooperations the same rights as individuals, for a starter)

Corporations only have some rights of individuals, despite histrionic claims in the media. As long as the corporate form of ownership has existed, it's always retained some such rights, eg, being able to sue in court. This is because they are fundamentally aggregations of people.

Those people already have it made, they are like a kid who ate a fat slice of the cake and decided to bribe mom into eating more of the cake and giving a very unfairly small amount to the other kids. He couldn't be satisified with the fat slice much, much bigger than everyone else's that he got legitimately, he now wants most of the cake and is getting it by cheating.

Is anyone justifying cheating here?

Shadow Wolf · Mar 16, 2014

Revoltingest said:
Easy!
Tis the same reason Libertarians like free markets, capitalism & wealth....it
let's us do what we want. I've heard of nothing in Xianity to make that a sin.

A sin is, very simply defined, falling short of the grace of god; to have transgressed against god. If a wealthy person, who claims to be Christian, isn't using their money in ways commanded by their lord and savior, then they are transgressing against god by not fulfilling his commandments. Personally, I think you could make a much stronger case that Jesus would have supported Marxism (with it's focus on elevating the under-privileged and disadvantaged and a more equal society) way before Capitalism (with it's inherent and unfixable inequality and lust for profit).

Why do Christians even care about money?

Active Member

Cosmic Vagabond

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Finding my own way

Certified People sTabber

Not Religious

Veteran Member

He who struggles with God

Not Religious

Daimona of the Helpless

Certified People sTabber

Active Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Active Member

Finding my own way

Active Member

Finding my own way

Pragmatic Libertarian

Certified People sTabber