Scripturally, Do believers go to heaven?

wmam · Mar 2, 2006

dawny0826 said:
Where do we have eternal life? Heaven.

And where is this written? I find no where that heaven is for us a part of eternal life. But then again I guess it is one interpretation of what and where heaven is. I would have to believe that there are more than one heaven as in the 3rd where YAH abodes and space as well as the first with the air around earth because it is written that when Yahshua comes He will be descending on a cloud. To me, and I am not sure how you or others view this word, descend means to come down from something higher. Anywho.......

dawny0826 said:
"Whoever acknowledged me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But however disowns me before men, I will disown before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32

Nice but it doesn't say that we are there when He either does or doesn't. Again. though, on your interpretation as to where heaven actually is.

FFH · Mar 2, 2006

may said:
LOL Yes JW are all over the world, ....... Matthew 24;14 and it is the message about the kingdom goodnews that makes me happy. i think householders can at times get us mixed up . but if i am correct , it is only the men that go door to door with your religion . but with the JW it is women as well. correct me if i am wrong

Yes, we do have full time sister missionaries, that go out in pairs, as well as retired couples.

dawny0826 · Mar 2, 2006

wmam said:
And where is this written? I find no where that heaven is for us a part of eternal life. But then again I guess it is one interpretation of what and where heaven is. I would have to believe that there are more than one heaven as in the 3rd where YAH abodes and space as well as the first with the air around earth because it is written that when Yahshua comes He will be descending on a cloud. To me, and I am not sure how you or others view this word, descend means to come down from something higher. Anywho.......

Nice but it doesn't say that we are there when He either does or doesn't. Again. though, on your interpretation as to where heaven actually is.

Well...technically...heaven as it is now is a part of our eternity until Christ returns. According to Revelations, a new heaven and earth will be created...eventually...but Christ hasn't returned as of yet.

According to the Bible, the believer will spend eternity with the Father if we embrace the Son.

How do I know this?

See John...Chapter 3.

What happens to believers when they pass on...

"For we walk by Faith and not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor. 5:7-8

Where is Christ?

At the right hand of the Father.

Where is God?

In heaven.

"Our Father who art in heaven..."

wmam · Mar 2, 2006

dawny0826 said:
Well...technically...heaven as it is now is a part of our eternity until Christ returns

And how is it as it is now? And also, where does it say in Scripture that heaven is a part of our eternity at any time as it is as it is now?

dawny0826 said:
According to Revelations, a new heaven and earth will be created...eventually...but Christ hasn't returned as of yet.

Yes........... and your getting warmer............ and where is this heaven going to be?

dawny0826 said:
According to the Bible, the believer will spend eternity with the Father if we embrace the Son.

Oh there is no doubt that those that believe on Yahshua Ha Mashiach will indeed be with Him.

dawny0826 said:
How do I know this?

See John...Chapter 3.

I agree but there is still a question as to where you, or I, will be spending all this time with the Father.

dawny0826 said:
What happens to believers when they pass on...

If you mean what happens to everyone, which includes that which believe on Yahshua Ha Mashiach, then you might want to read.........

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yahshua died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Yahshua will Elohim bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of YAH that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of Yahshua shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For Yahshua himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Elohim: and the dead in the Messiah shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet Yahshua in the air: and so shall we ever be with Yahshua.

dawny0826 said:
"For we walk by Faith and not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor. 5:7-8

So yes when Yahshua descends down and shouts to awake those that sleep and for those that are still awake but believe then they will be with Yahshua.

dawny0826 said:
Where is Christ?

At the right hand of the Father.

Where is God?

In heaven.

"Our Father who art in heaven..."

Yes this is true right now. But when that which is stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 occurs then heaven, hence the Kingdom of, will be Where exactly? Remember that there are many mansions and that Yahshua went to prepare a place for all that believed but when the time comes, where will it be? What does the Scriptures say it will be? :faint:

wmam · Mar 2, 2006

shema said:
I was just reading,and im finding 2 kings 2:1-18 talking about how elijah was taking up into heaven.

2 Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Now this in now way states that he ascended up into heaven. It just says that he went up in a whirlwind. The whirlwind just took him up into what we call the first heaven. Where the birds fly around. But............ There is a reason why he was took up. It is so YAH our Elohim can put him somewhere safe until it is time. So he can sleep quietly without being disturbed for...........

2Kings 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of YAH hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain; or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?

Why would the sons of the prophets search for his body if they believed that it had been taken into heaven? This verse, as well as the preceding verses, shows us that the sons of the prophets, who had been preparing Elisha for Elijahs departure, knew the very day that Elijah would be taken by YAH, why wouldn't they know where?
Elijah died as a Holy man of YAH and was taken by the Most High and buried, this was the reason why the sons of the prophets wanted to search for Elijahs body. Isnt it interesting that these people would know the very day Elijah was to depart but wouldnt know if he would be departed into heaven?

shema said:
and Jesus said he was the only one who went to heaven, ... no one has been to heaven except for the one who was sent from heaven.. Im thinking that there are different degrees to heaven.. Ive also heard something about seven heavens, but I have not read that in the scriptures, has anyone else heard something about this>?

First Yahshua said.........

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But who is He that comes down from heaven? Also isn't he that which is the Son of man which is in heaven. Me thinks that it is He that He is speaking of. Himself. For no man could but the Son of YAH did.

I'll take it a step further and we will see what YAH did with Moses............

Deuteronomy 34:4 And YAH said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Issac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. 5 So Moses the servant of YAH died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of YAH. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

Who buried him? YAH did as He did also with Elijah.

dawny0826 · Mar 2, 2006

And how is it as it is now? And also, where does it say in Scripture that heaven is a part of our eternity at any time as it is as it is now?

It's implied.

Yes........... and your getting warmer............ and where is this heaven going to be?

I don't think anyone clearly understand Revelations but I'm under the impression that New Jerusalem will be created on a brand spanking new earth. However, a new heaven will ALSO be created. I'm not clear if they are one in the same or not...and quite frankly, I don't care. To be with my Father is enough for me. He'll work out the details.

Oh there is no doubt that those that believe on Yahshua Ha Mashiach will indeed be with Him.

:jam:

I agree but there is still a question as to where you, or I, will be spending all this time with the Father.

Before Christ's return?

Wherever heaven as it exists now is...perhaps...IN CHRIST.

If you mean what happens to everyone, which includes that which believe on Yahshua Ha Mashiach, then you might want to read.........

I believe that those who are not believers will go to hell...period.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

All flesh becomes dust.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

How do you interpret this one?

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yahshua died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Yahshua will Elohim bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of YAH that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of Yahshua shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For Yahshua himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Elohim: and the dead in the Messiah shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet Yahshua in the air: and so shall we ever be with Yahshua.

We're also told that when we exit our bodies we will be with the Lord. I just know that in death...I will be with my Saviour.

So yes when Yahshua descends down and shouts to awake those that sleep and for those that are still awake but believe then they will be with Yahshua.

Please expound. Before I respond...I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly.

Yes this is true right now. But when that which is stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 occurs then heaven, hence the Kingdom of, will be Where exactly? Remember that there are many mansions and that Yahshua went to prepare a place for all that believed but when the time comes, where will it be? What does the Scriptures say it will be? :faint:

The righteous dead will sleep/rest in Christ, according to 1 Thes. 4.

According to this scripture (for anyone else who is reading along)...those who die before Christ's return will rest/sleep in Christ until His return. And when Christ returns (descends)...the dead in Him will rise first and then HIs followers who are living.

dawny0826 · Mar 2, 2006

BTW...I highly recommend 1 Thess. 4:13-18. BEAUTIFUL scripture. So comforting. Very moving.

wmam · Mar 2, 2006

dawny0826 said:
It's implied.

In other words........... It is your own understanding and belief but there is no Scriptural proof?

dawny0826 said:
I don't think anyone clearly understand Revelations but I'm under the impression that New Jerusalem will be created on a brand spanking new earth. However, a new heaven will ALSO be created. I'm not clear if they are one in the same or not...and quite frankly, I don't care. To be with my Father is enough for me. He'll work out the details.

Well if you don't care then pooey. LOL........ That was the basis of this whole thread but so be it. :bonk:

dawny0826 said:
Before Christ's return?

No where in Scripture does it state that we will be anywhere else other than the grave if we die before His return. I was only stating that when He does return, where do you think believers will spend all this time with Him? The re-newed earth with the Kingdom here? Lets not get confused between the two resurrections. We He first comes back and awakes the sleeping ones and catches them up along with the ones that believe that are yet awake is the first. Second comes after the tribulation. After the tribulation and earth is laid waste and the nations scattered abroad.

dawny0826 said:
Wherever heaven as it exists now is...perhaps...IN CHRIST.

In Him literally? Are you projecting again?

dawny0826 said:
I believe that those who are not believers will go to hell...period.

Oh so that I don't misunderstand your understandings........ You believe if you die before knowing or believing then you get no other chance but go directly to hell?

dawny0826 said:
All flesh becomes dust.

I sure hope so........... Could you imagine what we would look like if we had to keep that old flesh on for all eternity? Huck!

dawny0826 said:
How do you interpret this one?

It isn't how I interpret it but rather the fact in which I believe that you need to do all that is good and righteous before YAH now while you still can because once you are dead you will not know of anything nor do anything but sleep until that time comes that you are awaken by Him that is sent by YAH!. But realize that as it is when you sleep at night that it is little more than a twinkling of the eye that you awaken to the new day as it will be for those that die and are considered asleep waiting for the One that is sent by YAH! Yahshua HA Mashiach ben Dawid.

You may interpret yourself some other understanding.

dawny0826 said:
We're also told that when we exit our bodies we will be with the Lord. I just know that in death...I will be with my Saviour.

Yes this is correct............. But until He returns , there you are in that old decaying waste of a body turning to dust sleeping and waiting.

dawny0826 said:
Please expound. Before I respond...I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly.

I really do not know how to explain it any clearer than how the Scripture has put it so simply. If you do not understand that you lay in the grave until He calls on you to meet with Him in the air, then I can't help you.

dawny0826 said:
The righteous dead will sleep/rest in Christ, according to 1 Thes. 4.

Yes.......... exactly............. "In" as in dying believing in Him.

dawny0826 said:
According to this scripture (for anyone else who is reading along)...those who die before Christ's return will rest/sleep in Christ until His return. And when Christ returns (descends)...the dead in Him will rise first and then HIs followers who are living.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Praise YAH!.. I think you get it. Or maybe not? LOL I hope you do. It's almost like at the beginning of this post you wasn't agreeing with this and now at the end here with the last two comments you agree. LOL

wmam · Mar 2, 2006

dawny0826 said:
BTW...I highly recommend 1 Thess. 4:13-18. BEAUTIFUL scripture. So comforting. Very moving.

Yes it is and if you read my second to last post as well as dawny's reply it is there in my post's.

dawny0826 · Mar 2, 2006

wmam said:
Yes it is and if you read my second to last post as well as dawny's reply it is there in my post's.

LOL!:biglaugh:

I goofed. I meant to give you props actually for directing us to the scripture and THEN was going to recommend it to others. But it didn't come out that way.

dawny0826 · Mar 3, 2006

In other words........... It is your own understanding and belief but there is no Scriptural proof?

Personal interpretation of scripture that I posted for you. If you're asking me have a found a verse that says word for word..."The righteous in Christ will go to heaven when they die." No. I haven't found it.

I know through scripture that when I pass on...I'll go to be with Jesus. And Jesus is with God in heaven. So...I've always assumed that heaven is the logical place that I'll be headed. And many other Christians share this viewpoint.

You've brought about good points. I believe whole heartedly in the Word and I'm glad that you suggested reading 1 Thes. 4:13-18...because when looking at the context of that Chapter...it's a lot to think about. It kind of hit home with me and makes sense. Of course you know what this means...I must now step back...pray on this and (gasp!) maybe even re-evaluate my views on "heaven".

Baby steps though...baby steps...

Either way...whether I go directly to heaven or I sleep until He comes for us...both scenarios are pretty darn "heavenly" when you think about it and incredibly comforting.

Well if you don't care then pooey. LOL........ That was the basis of this whole thread but so be it. :bonk:

Of course I care...but I don't have all the answers...which is what I meant. I believe the Word of God and I believe that if I'm told through the Word that I'll have everlasting life because of my faith, love and trust in Christ...then I believe it. It would be nice to understand the Word as He wants me to understand it. The one thing that I DO know for sure is that my eternity will in some way, shape or form be spent with Christ. I can "sleep" on that. (hee hee)

No where in Scripture does it state that we will be anywhere else other than the grave if we die before His return. I was only stating that when He does return, where do you think believers will spend all this time with Him? The re-newed earth with the Kingdom here? Lets not get confused between the two resurrections. We He first comes back and awakes the sleeping ones and catches them up along with the ones that believe that are yet awake is the first. Second comes after the tribulation. After the tribulation and earth is laid waste and the nations scattered abroad.

Well...this makes sense.

I can't deny scripture. The Word of God is my authority. What you've said above is a summary of biblical text.

In Him literally? Are you projecting again?

Maybe. I'm not sure yet.

Oh so that I don't misunderstand your understandings........ You believe if you die before knowing or believing then you get no other chance but go directly to hell?

I don't believe that there are second chances once our spirit has left the flesh. If you have scripture that proves other wise...go for it...by all means post it...I'll have a look see.

I sure hope so........... Could you imagine what we would look like if we had to keep that old flesh on for all eternity? Huck!

I'm looking forward to a new body. :162:

It isn't how I interpret it but rather the fact in which I believe that you need to do all that is good and righteous before YAH now while you still can because once you are dead you will not know of anything nor do anything but sleep until that time comes that you are awaken by Him that is sent by YAH!. But realize that as it is when you sleep at night that it is little more than a twinkling of the eye that you awaken to the new day as it will be for those that die and are considered asleep waiting for the One that is sent by YAH! Yahshua HA Mashiach ben Dawid.

It makes sense. It really does. I'm reading Chapter 5 as well and it's Scripture that really packs a punch.Knockout

You may interpret yourself some other understanding.

Yes this is correct............. But until He returns , there you are in that old decaying waste of a body turning to dust sleeping and waiting.

Okay, so our souls would lie dormant while we're sleeping?

I really do not know how to explain it any clearer than how the Scripture has put it so simply. If you do not understand that you lay in the grave until He calls on you to meet with Him in the air, then I can't help you.

Actually, the scripture is pretty clear.

Yes.......... exactly............. "In" as in dying believing in Him.

Gotcha.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Praise YAH!.. I think you get it. Or maybe not? LOL I hope you do. It's almost like at the beginning of this post you wasn't agreeing with this and now at the end here with the last two comments you agree. LOL

Every day of my walk is a learning process. And it's through debate that I often learn wonderful things about my own faith and about God's Word.

I have a lot to think about.

I thank you for the direction to 1 Thessalonians...that chapter is such a treasure. I was literally in tears reading it. The header for verses 13-18 in my Bible is "The Comfort of Christ's Coming".

And this is what verse 18 says..."Therefore comfort one another with these words."

may · Mar 3, 2006

FFH said:
Yes, we do have full time sister missionaries, that go out in pairs, as well as retired couples.

i stand corrected

women are a large army
The women telling the good news are a large army......... psalm 68;11 OH is anyone scared........ LOL

wmam · Mar 3, 2006

dawny0826 said:
LOL!:biglaugh:

I goofed. I meant to give you props actually for directing us to the scripture and THEN was going to recommend it to others. But it didn't come out that way.

Uh huh!........ I see how ya are now.....:ignore: ......J/K........ I would rather you give all props to YAH. Praise YAH!

wmam · Mar 3, 2006

Notice how when you finally agree on something or find an answer to a question that it only seems to open up that can of worms. You know the one. The one that has the quad-Zillion other questions that come right after the first one you asked and then once they are answered it leaves a Trillion more for each one of those? Like a pyramid scheme. LOL. Well I see you have entered into that somewhat and I will try to show you to some understandings. ............

dawny0826 said:
Personal interpretation of scripture that I posted for you. If you're asking me have a found a verse that says word for word..."The righteous in Christ will go to heaven when they die." No. I haven't found it.

Gotcha............

dawny0826 said:
I know through scripture that when I pass on...I'll go to be with Jesus. And Jesus is with God in heaven. So...I've always assumed that heaven is the logical place that I'll be headed. And many other Christians share this viewpoint.

I agree that many look at the same thing in many different ways, but this doesn't mean that any of them are right. I do my best to stick to the Scripture in its simplest meanings. Not to say that the Scripture is simple, or for the simple minded, but one would have to agree that many interpret the same as they were taught , which by those that were teaching, teach as they were taught. If the teaching was wrong to begin with, or was in some way altered from that of the original, like say from certain pagan additions and beliefs through words, names and strong emphasis on idols, then many would be as I feel they are today. That of course is something that should be left for a whole other debate. sorry.

dawny0826 said:
You've brought about good points. I believe whole heartedly in the Word and I'm glad that you suggested reading 1 Thes. 4:13-18...because when looking at the context of that Chapter...it's a lot to think about. It kind of hit home with me and makes sense. Of course you know what this means...I must now step back...pray on this and (gasp!) maybe even re-evaluate my views on "heaven".

Well.......... let me first say that I thank you for the kind words but please......... if I hadn't been shown then I wouldn't have known either. I suggest that even if it be someone else that helps guide you into the Truth, always give thanks and praise to YAH!

I also would like to add that I would rather you do your own research and as you said pray for the Spirit of YAH to guide you to what is Truth on this and any other subject. Don't just take the word of either myself or any other loony on the internet nor the loonies at your local assemblies. How was it written?........... Search out all things and keep that which is good.

dawny0826 said:
Baby steps though...baby steps...

Oh ............... I suggest crawling before stepping. LOL This is why I hate to take a discussion and drop all the pearls on the floor all at once. I like to take like one and bounce it around a little. Give it a test drive if you will.

dawny0826 said:
Either way...whether I go directly to heaven or I sleep until He comes for us...both scenarios are pretty darn "heavenly" when you think about it and incredibly comforting.

Yes........ But I prefer to know which version is Truth as revealed by the word of YAH. I take that over the whims and incarnations of the minds of men any day.

dawny0826 said:
Of course I care...but I don't have all the answers...which is what I meant. I believe the Word of God and I believe that if I'm told through the Word that I'll have everlasting life because of my faith, love and trust in Christ...then I believe it. It would be nice to understand the Word as He wants me to understand it. The one thing that I DO know for sure is that my eternity will in some way, shape or form be spent with Christ. I can "sleep" on that. (hee hee)

I agree and such the restful sleep it shall be with the knowledge we have on the way we will be awakened.

dawny0826 said:
Well...this makes sense.

It really does to me. I'm still learning the ends and outs of it as we speak. Its like you said, baby steps. I feel that I am given bits and pieces at a time to swallow slowly. To savor, if you will, the entire morsel of bread. To take in the fullness of each part that makes up said bread as it pertains to the bread itself. I really have no other way to explain the aw and complete satisfaction I get from head to toe when His word is revealed to me. It gives me cold chill bumps. I shutter with joy and happiness that I have His Spirit with me showing me as much as is allowed in due time.

dawny0826 said:
I can't deny scripture. The Word of God is my authority. What you've said above is a summary of biblical text.

Scripture is not broken, nor can it be.

dawny0826 said:
Maybe. I'm not sure yet.

I'll stick to Scripture. Maybe it would best be explained if you look at it as "In" the faith?

dawny0826 said:
I don't believe that there are second chances once our spirit has left the flesh. If you have scripture that proves other wise...go for it...by all means post it...I'll have a look see.

I will have to do further research and prayer to see what happens to those that died refusing the faith. I do know that it is written that those that came out of the tribulation and had washed their robes in the blood of the Mashiach had turned them white. So there must have been a chance for all those still awake, if you will, that had not accepted the faith as yet that had to go through the tribulation. What of the dead that is left during the tribulation? Are they raised as well to face the tribulation with the others or do they continue to sleep without the chance to change their minds or not? ................ Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

dawny0826 said:
I'm looking forward to a new body.

Oh me as well. That transformation is so welcomed.

dawny0826 said:
It makes sense. It really does. I'm reading Chapter 5 as well and it's Scripture that really packs a punch.

Yep. Theres things He don't play about.

dawny0826 said:
Okay, so our souls would lie dormant while we're sleeping?

Now we are getting into what I mentioned a little about in the opening paragraph............

What is a "soul"?

Strong's says that a "Soul" as first used in ..........

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

is........

soul.5315

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

And BDB states it's............

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strongs Number: from H5314
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395a

I say yes........... We as living and breathing persons sleep until such time as we are awakened by Yahshua.

dawny0826 said:
Actually, the scripture is pretty clear.

Yes it truly is.

dawny0826 said:
Gotcha.

Good.

dawny0826 said:
Every day of my walk is a learning process. And it's through debate that I often learn wonderful things about my own faith and about God's Word.

I agree. I try to learn something new every single day. Sometimes allot and sometimes a little but try to learn something new.

dawny0826 said:
I have a lot to think about.

Careful not to listen to the mortal heart but rather to the voice of the Spirit of YAH which will guide you if you ask.

dawny0826 said:
I thank you for the direction to 1 Thessalonians...that chapter is such a treasure. I was literally in tears reading it. The header for verses 13-18 in my Bible is "The Comfort of Christ's Coming".

Again.... please don't thank me but thank YAH. He deserves all the glory. I am worth of nothing without His grace.

dawny0826 said:
And this is what verse 18 says..."Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Yes........ I find comfort in all of the word. The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. So help me YAH my Elohim.

dawny0826 · Mar 3, 2006

wmam said:
Notice how when you finally agree on something or find an answer to a question that it only seems to open up that can of worms. You know the one. The one that has the quad-Zillion other questions that come right after the first one you asked and then once they are answered it leaves a Trillion more for each one of those? Like a pyramid scheme. LOL. Well I see you have entered into that somewhat and I will try to show you to some understandings. ............

Gotcha............

I agree that many look at the same thing in many different ways, but this doesn't mean that any of them are right. I do my best to stick to the Scripture in its simplest meanings. Not to say that the Scripture is simple, or for the simple minded, but one would have to agree that many interpret the same as they were taught , which by those that were teaching, teach as they were taught. If the teaching was wrong to begin with, or was in some way altered from that of the original, like say from certain pagan additions and beliefs through words, names and strong emphasis on idols, then many would be as I feel they are today. That of course is something that should be left for a whole other debate. sorry.

Well.......... let me first say that I thank you for the kind words but please......... if I hadn't been shown then I wouldn't have known either. I suggest that even if it be someone else that helps guide you into the Truth, always give thanks and praise to YAH!

I also would like to add that I would rather you do your own research and as you said pray for the Spirit of YAH to guide you to what is Truth on this and any other subject. Don't just take the word of either myself or any other loony on the internet nor the loonies at your local assemblies. How was it written?........... Search out all things and keep that which is good.

Oh ............... I suggest crawling before stepping. LOL This is why I hate to take a discussion and drop all the pearls on the floor all at once. I like to take like one and bounce it around a little. Give it a test drive if you will.

Yes........ But I prefer to know which version is Truth as revealed by the word of YAH. I take that over the whims and incarnations of the minds of men any day.

I agree and such the restful sleep it shall be with the knowledge we have on the way we will be awakened.

It really does to me. I'm still learning the ends and outs of it as we speak. Its like you said, baby steps. I feel that I am given bits and pieces at a time to swallow slowly. To savor, if you will, the entire morsel of bread. To take in the fullness of each part that makes up said bread as it pertains to the bread itself. I really have no other way to explain the aw and complete satisfaction I get from head to toe when His word is revealed to me. It gives me cold chill bumps. I shutter with joy and happiness that I have His Spirit with me showing me as much as is allowed in due time.

Scripture is not broken, nor can it be.

I'll stick to Scripture. Maybe it would best be explained if you look at it as "In" the faith?

I will have to do further research and prayer to see what happens to those that died refusing the faith. I do know that it is written that those that came out of the tribulation and had washed their robes in the blood of the Mashiach had turned them white. So there must have been a chance for all those still awake, if you will, that had not accepted the faith as yet that had to go through the tribulation. What of the dead that is left during the tribulation? Are they raised as well to face the tribulation with the others or do they continue to sleep without the chance to change their minds or not? ................ Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Oh me as well. That transformation is so welcomed.

Yep. Theres things He don't play about.

Now we are getting into what I mentioned a little about in the opening paragraph............

What is a "soul"?

Strong's says that a "Soul" as first used in ..........

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

is........

soul.5315

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

And BDB states it's............

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strongs Number: from H5314
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395a

I say yes........... We as living and breathing persons sleep until such time as we are awakened by Yahshua.

Yes it truly is.

Good.

I agree. I try to learn something new every single day. Sometimes allot and sometimes a little but try to learn something new.

Careful not to listen to the mortal heart but rather to the voice of the Spirit of YAH which will guide you if you ask.

Again.... please don't thank me but thank YAH. He deserves all the glory. I am worth of nothing without His grace.

Yes........ I find comfort in all of the word. The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. So help me YAH my Elohim.

Very well said.

I truly have no further comments.

And yes, ALWAYS...praise be to God.

I do whenever I open my Bible, pray for spiritual guidance. I read both 1 and 2 Thessalonians in full last night. Very good stuff.

wmam · Mar 3, 2006

jewscout said:
well...is there wmam? is there scripture that says we won't go to heaven as someone who believes?

As far as an answer to your question...........

No. I cannot find anything that would state that we will not go to heaven no more than I can find where it states that we will. Unless of course, being with Yahshua is heaven no matter where you are then yes. I can find Scriptural proof of that. But I can also direct one to Rev. 21. I suggest the entire chapter. It tells of the New Jerusalem coming down from YAH to be with men. One might thinks it be here on earth as I do. Not off up and away above space somewhere as it is called the third heaven. Oh and if there are 3 different heavens then which one is new? I think where John states he sees a new heaven and earth is that he is describing the the earth with its air(first heaven) around it.

Hope I helped.

Shabbat Shalom Brother.

Bangbang · Mar 3, 2006

You just go......... Poof!He he ! Ha ha ha!

shema · Mar 5, 2006

I dont know why the quote icons arent showing up, but Im quoting dawny"For a lot of Christians, John 3:16 and John 3:18 summarizes how salvation is obtained. And many Christians (like myself) view eternity as either being spent with the Lord (in heaven) or being cast down into the lake of fire...."kudos, three examples could have been suffice however you found a myriad of examples that made the context very well rounded..

wmam · Mar 5, 2006

shema said:
I dont know why the quote icons arent showing up, but Im quoting dawny"For a lot of Christians, John 3:16 and John 3:18 summarizes how salvation is obtained. And many Christians (like myself) view eternity as either being spent with the Lord (in heaven) or being cast down into the lake of fire...."kudos, three examples could have been suffice however you found a myriad of examples that made the context very well rounded..

I guess I'm dense because I have having trouble seeing the roundness here. It is agreed that those that believe on Him, and as other verses of the Scripture so points out of the other things that go along with that belief shows, will be with Him always, but, it in no way tells me anywhere in the Scriptures, that I have found, that it will be in the 2nd or 3rd heavens. Now that being said, there is some argument as to whether it would still be in the 1st heaven, as in hovering above the earth, but I don't follow this train of thought in so much as to what the Fathers Prayer tells me...............

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amein.

This ask that His kingdom to come and that His will be done here on earth as it is done in heaven. Where is His kingdom coming? It is agreed that it be earth where it is asked that His will be done as it is in heaven. Again later it says that it is His kingdom, with all the power and the glory, that goes along with it, for ever. It is agreed again that this Kingdom that is coming to earth is His and that it be also forever which does show that those that believe will be in this kingdom forever.

Now the best "roundness" of Scriptures that would touch on just about every little detail as has been either asked, or brought up, in this thread would be..........

1Co 15:33 Do not be led astray, Evil company corrupts good habits.
1Co 15:34 Wake up to soberness, righteously, and do not sin, for some do not have the knowledge of Elohim. I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But someone might say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Senseless one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And as to what you sow: you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, it might be wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But Elohim gives it a body as He wishes, and to each seed a body of its own.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the esteem of the heavenly is truly one, and the esteem of the earthly is another,
1Co 15:41 one esteem of the sun, and another esteem of the moon, and another esteem of the stars for star differs from star in esteem.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in disrespect, it is raised in esteem; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it has been written, The first man Aḏam became a living being, the last Aḏam a life-giving Spirit.
1Co 15:46 The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the likeness of the earthy, we shall also bear the likeness of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 And this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood is unable to inherit the reign of Elohim, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, Death is swallowed up in overcoming.
1Co 15:55 O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?
1Co 15:56 And the sting of death is the sin, and the power of the sin is the Torah.
1Co 15:57 But thanks to Elohim who gives us the overcoming through our Master Yahshua the Messiah.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Master, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Master.

1Th 5:9 For YAH hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Master Yahshua the Anointed,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Deu 29:4 But YAH has not given you a heart to know and eyes to see and ears to hear, till this day."
Rom 11:8 As it has been written, "YAH has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see and ears not to hear, unto this day.

Shalom

shema · Mar 7, 2006

wmam said:
I guess I'm dense because I have having trouble seeing the roundness here. It is agreed that those that believe on Him, and as other verses of the Scripture so points out of the other things that go along with that belief shows, will be with Him always, but, it in no way tells me anywhere in the Scriptures, that I have found, that it will be in the 2nd or 3rd heavens. Now that being said, there is some argument as to whether it would still be in the 1st heaven, as in hovering above the earth, but I don't follow this train of thought in so much as to what the Fathers Prayer tells me...............

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amein.

This ask that His kingdom to come and that His will be done here on earth as it is done in heaven. Where is His kingdom coming? It is agreed that it be earth where it is asked that His will be done as it is in heaven. Again later it says that it is His kingdom, with all the power and the glory, that goes along with it, for ever. It is agreed again that this Kingdom that is coming to earth is His and that it be also forever which does show that those that believe will be in this kingdom forever.

Now the best "roundness" of Scriptures that would touch on just about every little detail as has been either asked, or brought up, in this thread would be..........

1Co 15:33 Do not be led astray, Evil company corrupts good habits.
1Co 15:34 Wake up to soberness, righteously, and do not sin, for some do not have the knowledge of Elohim. I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But someone might say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Senseless one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And as to what you sow: you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, it might be wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But Elohim gives it a body as He wishes, and to each seed a body of its own.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the esteem of the heavenly is truly one, and the esteem of the earthly is another,
1Co 15:41 one esteem of the sun, and another esteem of the moon, and another esteem of the stars for star differs from star in esteem.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in disrespect, it is raised in esteem; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it has been written, The first man Aḏam became a living being, the last Aḏam a life-giving Spirit.
1Co 15:46 The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the likeness of the earthy, we shall also bear the likeness of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 And this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood is unable to inherit the reign of Elohim, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, Death is swallowed up in overcoming.
1Co 15:55 O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?
1Co 15:56 And the sting of death is the sin, and the power of the sin is the Torah.
1Co 15:57 But thanks to Elohim who gives us the overcoming through our Master Yahshua the Messiah.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Master, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Master.

1Th 5:9 For YAH hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Master Yahshua the Anointed,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Deu 29:4 But YAH has not given you a heart to know and eyes to see and ears to hear, till this day."
Rom 11:8 As it has been written, "YAH has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see and ears not to hear, unto this day.

Shalom

ok I dont see anything that says something about their being multiple heavens either, so that makes us in agreement..there may be different aspects of heaven, for Jesus said, In My fathers house there are many mansions...... Me personally I believe that the kingdom of heaven is already here. It is very complicated for someone who does not study scripture. and each verse in the bible should be read for a specific purpose. The bible makes many references to things coming to pass in the proper time. I believe that the bible in its entirety is well rounded but John stesses how we can obtain salvation and spend eternity with God.

Scripturally, Do believers go to heaven?

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