What are the values of moderate Muslims?

LuisDantas said:

For instance, a few posts ago the suggestion was made that somehow there might be Muslims that did not take the Quran quite as seriously.

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Yes there is. My sister for exemple doubt of many things. She find it hard to believe at Noah's story for exemple. She have big problems to understand the concept of Hell and many other things. But in the same time she believes in God, she does Ramadan, don't eat pork. But she doesn't like to be called "moderate" too.
It's like in other religions, some believe in everything other don't, some practice a lot some a little some nothing at all.

LuisDantas said:

Now, I do not mean to imply that Islam is perfect, nor that there are no Muslims in the wrong. I think that violence, xenophoby and hostility that claims to be at the service of Islam are grave problems, for Muslims more so than for anyone else.

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I agree.

LuisDantas said:

It seems to me now that there is some need of better understanding of the usual Muslim perspectives before some useful conclusions about violence commited under claims of Islamic inspiration can be attained.

TashaN helped me some on this matter, but I want to go a bit further. One of the obstacles is that the temptation of making direct comparisons with our experience with Christians lead us into mistaken conclusions.

For instance, a few posts ago the suggestion was made that somehow there might be Muslims that did not take the Quran quite as seriously.

Now, I am hardly an expert, but I do not think that can really work, even on paper. It would be in effect expecting at least some Muslims to both believe that the Quran is the perfect and highly sacred gift from God to direct humanity away from mistaken paths and that somehow at the same time it is not really very healthy to take it too seriously.

I may be misrepresenting Muslim understanding, typical or otherwise, and I invite all of you, particularly the Muslims, to correct me freely. But from where I stand right now and by my honest current understanding, that sure make no sense.

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I personally believe that most of Muslims agree that Quran is 100% perfect and is 100% from God, but they only differ in its interpretation. Some take it literally, some take it metaphorically, and some mix both, meaning to believe that it contains both.

Although it's easy to paint those who take the Quran literally with extremism the same with those who take the Bible literally, but that is not the case.

Some reasons are that the Bible has OT and NT, have some words of God, words of Jesus, words of other prophets, words of the disciples, etc, and the violence in it is direct, and shocking most of the time, which would make it problematic for many christians. On the other hand, Muslims believe the Quran to be entirely the words of God, word by word and it's entirely coherent and anything which might appear to be violence in the Quran is in self defence. You can't see violence in the Quran on the same manner as you see in the Bible. If anyone is interested we can make a separate thread to debate the verses which some claim to be violent or encourage violence.

Now, I do not mean to imply that Islam is perfect, nor that there are no Muslims in the wrong. I think that violence, xenophoby and hostility that claims to be at the service of Islam are grave problems, for Muslims more so than for anyone else.

But if fruitful discussion of the matter is to be had, we must first build a mutually understandable and acceptable vocabulary and concepts. And the idea that such problems are caused chiefly by the Quran with no significant influence from political, demographic, historical and military factors is one that I have a very hard time taking seriously. It just doesn't fly with what I know of Muslims.

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Indeed.

So I ask of you, Pastek, of you, Virus, TashaN, and anyone else with a better understanding of Muslim culture and values than me, please help us in understanding not only that things are different with Muslims, but also how and why it is so. The current lack of understanding does no one any good service.

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It's a bit complicated, not as simple as some view it but i'm quite sure there is a great progress in this thread and i'm happy to engage and be part of such a great fruitful discussion with open minded people like you guys.

I personally believe that most of Muslims agree that Quran is 100% perfect and is 100% from God, but they only differ in its interpretation. Some take it literally, some take it metaphorically, and some mix both, meaning to believe that it contains both.

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It's REALLY, REALLY helpful for me to hear from you that Muslims view the Quran differently. Some take it literally, some metaphorically, and some interpret it. This makes intuitive sense to me, but you're the first Muslim I've talked to, who's said it - thanks!

But if fruitful discussion of the matter is to be had, we must first build a mutually understandable and acceptable vocabulary and concepts. And the idea that such problems are caused chiefly by the Quran with no significant influence from political, demographic, historical and military factors is one that I have a very hard time taking seriously. It just doesn't fly with what I know of Muslims.

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I've thought about this a lot, and I agree, it IS complicated. On the one hand, as has already been discussed, the world's billion-plus Muslims live all over the world and have been brought up in countless different cultures.

On the other hand there are examples of Muslims - from across the world - thinking and acting with some degree of unison. Several years ago the Pew Research organization did a world-wide poll of 38,000 Muslims across many regions, and on some questions Muslims around the world agreed (to a large extent). Another example was the unfortunate incident of the Danish cartoons which triggered violent reactions from Muslims from all over the world.

This is all to say that while it's certainly true that Muslims are a diverse group, there also appear to be some common beliefs.

I'm not at all stuck on the idea that these common beliefs come from the scripture. But I'm curious to understand, if not from the scripture, then where from? Because as has been mentioned, politics, and economies, and cultures vary widely.

icehorse said:

Another example was the unfortunate incident of the Danish cartoons which triggered violent reactions from Muslims from all over the world.

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Not from all over the world :no:
3 or 4 countries are not all the muslim world.
The majority just demonstrated peacefully.

Hi Pastek,

When I Google "danish cartoons" I can find a wikipedia article. Of course, you are correct that the protests were not literally "all over the world", at the same time it was many more than 3 or 4 countries. But the point really was that the protests occurred in many regions of the world, representing very different cultures, economies, and histories. The only common factor *seemed* to be Islam. (Perhaps there was a different common factor?)

icehorse said:

It's REALLY, REALLY helpful for me to hear from you that Muslims view the Quran differently. Some take it literally, some metaphorically, and some interpret it. This makes intuitive sense to me, but you're the first Muslim I've talked to, who's said it - thanks!

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You are most welcome. Usually i try as much as i can to give you a general idea of what Muslims from all different school of thoughts believe in, and not restrict the discussion to what i personally believe in. You might talk to some people and they only give their own personal opinion which stem obviously from the school of thought which they belong to. There have been so much debate about the issue of whether Quran is literal in the sense that to take it as it appear to be or to think of what it might mean aside from what it appear to be, and there have been different school of thoughts about it and they simply agree to disagree sometimes when it comes to certain complex or very unique and rich verses.

Below is a verse from the Quran itself which states clearly that there are some complex verses which only God know its meaning. Some meanings of the verses in the Quran might be understood in early at the beginning of Islam and some meanings might be understood only in later generations. Even the same verse might mean something in early Islam but we find out later that it mean something more relevant to our time today. That's the beauty of the eternal message of the Quran.


{7} هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (Quran 3:7)

Here is also some readings for you about Muslim schools of thought:
Madhhab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And below is information about how Quran is interpreted:
Tafsir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's why i warned you earlier in one of my posts that it's not as simple and straightforward as it looks and that you will need to read a lot.

I've thought about this a lot, and I agree, it IS complicated. On the one hand, as has already been discussed, the world's billion-plus Muslims live all over the world and have been brought up in countless different cultures.

On the other hand there are examples of Muslims - from across the world - thinking and acting with some degree of unison. Several years ago the Pew Research organization did a world-wide poll of 38,000 Muslims across many regions, and on some questions Muslims around the world agreed (to a large extent). Another example was the unfortunate incident of the Danish cartoons which triggered violent reactions from Muslims from all over the world.

This is all to say that while it's certainly true that Muslims are a diverse group, there also appear to be some common beliefs.

I'm not at all stuck on the idea that these common beliefs come from the scripture. But I'm curious to understand, if not from the scripture, then where from? Because as has been mentioned, politics, and economies, and cultures vary widely.

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I think it will be more useful here to be more specific. You keep referring to some data gathered. This can be bias sometimes and sometimes people don't read the circumstances of gathering the data and it been gathered from how many country, etc. Can you please provide us with these data if you don't mind to know what you are referring to?

By the way, any media can make 50 people to look as if the entire country is in riot. Got what i mean?

icehorse said:

Hi Pastek,

When I Google "danish cartoons" I can find a wikipedia article. Of course, you are correct that the protests were not literally "all over the world", at the same time it was many more than 3 or 4 countries. But the point really was that the protests occurred in many regions of the world, representing very different cultures, economies, and histories. The only common factor *seemed* to be Islam. (Perhaps there was a different common factor?)

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Hi icehorse

You're right the common factor is the same. In countries with problems it will be more vindictive than other countries.

TashaN - If you Google "pew polls muslims" you can find the results. In the meantime here are a just a few examples that might be enough for discussion purposes. (Again, this was a poll of 38,000 Muslims across many regions and countries):

- Across many regions and countries, about 60% of Muslims feel a wife must obey her husband.
- About 50% say religious leaders should have political influence.

There are more, but if we look at these two, we see a difference in core values than in the ones I offered at the beginning:

- equality for all humans vs. trust in scripture (if indeed this idea comes from scripture)
- secular society vs. Sharia-based society.

Pastek - It's good to notice that many of these protests occurred in Europe.

icehorse said:

- Across many regions and countries, about 60% of Muslims feel a wife must obey her husband.
- About 50% say religious leaders should have political influence.

There are more, but if we look at these two, we see a difference in core values than in the ones I offered at the beginning:

- equality for all humans vs. trust in scripture (if indeed this idea comes from scripture)
- secular society vs. Sharia-based society.

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You state this as if there is a direct opposition between equality and trust in scripture or between secular and sharia-based society. Maybe you didn't mean it this way?

Why can't we trust the scriptures AND value equality for all humans?
Why can't we have a secular society that draws from shariah?

Many people have a problem with the last statement. But I ask...where do your morals come from?
How do you decide that murder is a crime? That rape is a crime? That theft is a crime? How do you decide that lying is bad? That getting high and/or drunk all the time is bad? That adultery is bad?
Let's face it, religion plays a part in every society, and every government. We just don't use the word "religion".

And yes, a wife must obey her husband. That is from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. " (An-Nisa:34)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “If I were to order anyone to prostrate to anyone, then I would order a wife to prostrate to her husband.”

Also, A husband must be kind and fair to his wife. That is from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
"And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]." (Al-Baqarah:228)
"And live with them in kindness." (An-Nisa:19)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The best of you is the one who is best to his wife"

Everyone's first responsibility is to obey Allah. That is from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." (Adh-Dharaiyat:56)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “There is no obedience to any created being if it involves disobedience towards the Creator.”

Hi cocolia42,

You state this as if there is a direct opposition between equality and trust in scripture or between secular and sharia-based society. Maybe you didn't mean it this way?

Why can't we trust the scriptures AND value equality for all humans?
Why can't we have a secular society that draws from shariah?

Many people have a problem with the last statement. But I ask...where do your morals come from?
How do you decide that murder is a crime? That rape is a crime? That theft is a crime? How do you decide that lying is bad? That getting high and/or drunk all the time is bad? That adultery is bad?
Let's face it, religion plays a part in every society, and every government. We just don't use the word "religion".

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That's a big set of questions, but I think there might be a way to find a theme. I want to step back for a minute and discuss modern Christians. These days, there are no Christians (or virtually none), who would claim to follow the OT literally. Modern Christians have agreed that the OT needs heavy interpretation - correct? How did they come to that conclusion? Where did their morals come from? What set of morals do they use to interpret the OT?

As TashaN has said, most Muslims interpret the Quran. (I don't mean to oversimplify here.) So the same questions can be asked of Muslims... What set of morals do Muslims use to interpret the Quran?

cocolia42, I don't follow any religion, so you might not like my answer, and I don't want my views to adversely affect this conversation. But in a nutshell, I think that we all have a very similar sense of morality and that it does NOT come from religion. I know that preachers don't want folks to think that, but that's what I think.

cocolia42 said:

And yes, a wife must obey her husband. That is from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. " (An-Nisa:34)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “If I were to order anyone to prostrate to anyone, then I would order a wife to prostrate to her husband.”

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This is also in asian culture.
For them it's the culture, for us it's the religion.

icehorse said:

cocolia42, I don't follow any religion, so you might not like my answer, and I don't want my views to adversely affect this conversation. But in a nutshell, I think that we all have a very similar sense of morality and that it does NOT come from religion. I know that preachers don't want folks to think that, but that's what I think.

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You may not follow any religion, but you are certainly influenced by your environment...which was influenced by religion.

If you were 'raised by wolves' (without human influence), do you think you would have the same sense of morality that you have now?

No one has identified the definition of "moderate muslin" here. Is there no such thing?

cocolia42 said:

You may not follow any religion, but you are certainly influenced by your environment...which was influenced by religion.

If you were 'raised by wolves' (without human influence), do you think you would have the same sense of morality that you have now?

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That's another deep question, and scientists are researching it. Of course if I had been raised by wolves, I wouldn't have the same sense of morality that I have now, but emerging evidence is pointing towards the conclusion that some common moral traits are in fact innate.

I'm still interested in understanding what moral guides Muslims use to interpret their scripture...

I guess there is no such thing as a moderate Muslin. No one seems to know that they exist or who they are.

icehorse said:

TashaN - If you Google "pew polls muslims" you can find the results. In the meantime here are a just a few examples that might be enough for discussion purposes. (Again, this was a poll of 38,000 Muslims across many regions and countries):

- Across many regions and countries, about 60% of Muslims feel a wife must obey her husband.
- About 50% say religious leaders should have political influence.

There are more, but if we look at these two, we see a difference in core values than in the ones I offered at the beginning:

- equality for all humans vs. trust in scripture (if indeed this idea comes from scripture)
- secular society vs. Sharia-based society.

Pastek - It's good to notice that many of these protests occurred in Europe.

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They didn't reveal the actual questions being asked to those who participated in the poll so i can't really judge. It's just a general poll. It's difficult to make such conclusions because the topics they have made a survey on are complex and are seen and expressed differently by Muslims around the world. That's why i can't comment on this poll.

They just say they have conducted interviews which means they have made conclusions based on how they interpreted Muslims responses so we can't ignore the presence of bias nor the possibility of misunderstanding.

icehorse said:

I'm still interested in understanding what moral guides Muslims use to interpret their scripture...

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We take Prophet Mohamed and his companions as guidance and example on how we should interpret the scripture, and then we rely on many other things like scholars depending on their field of expertise, and our common sense, etc.

An interesting aside: how significant is oral tradition in Islamic communities now, and how was it at the time when Mohammed was alive?

We from the Dharmic traditions tend to believe that scripture alone is not enough as a religious or moral guide. I certainly do.

@gilligan: if you believe they do not exist, surely you must have your own understanding of what they would be like. Why don't you share it with us?

TashaN said:

We take Prophet Mohamed and his companions as guidance and example on how we should interpret the scripture, and then we rely on many other things like scholars depending on their field of expertise, and our common sense, etc.

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First you mention Muhammad as the example to learn from. But the only way we know about Muhammad is through the scripture, correct? So are you saying you use the scripture to interpret the scripture?

Next you mention scholars, cool. Can you say more about these scholars? Are they scholars from shortly after the time of Muhammad? Or more recent scholars? A mix?

Finally you mention common sense. Also cool! This gets back to one of my feelings that in fact morals and values exist outside of religion, and in fact they pre-date religion.

LuisDantas said:

An interesting aside: how significant is oral tradition in Islamic communities now, and how was it at the time when Mohammed was alive?

We from the Dharmic traditions tend to believe that scripture alone is not enough as a religious or moral guide. I certainly do.

@gilligan: if you believe they do not exist, surely you must have your own understanding of what they would be like. Why don't you share it with us?

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Oral tradition now is used only side by side with written one because it's basically the same. Whatever people memorize orally it's available in a written format, but that was not the case in the past when it was very expensive to write on exported papers.