Noah

Hello dear LDS friends,

While reading Ensign, the concept of Noah=Gabriel attracted me.
The article here explains that Noah - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism
I wonder what this means:

Noah stands "next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood" (HC 3:386), and "in third position from the Lord"

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What positions are, and who stands in each position?

In D&C 128:21 says:

And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights,

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The question is: Who is Raphael from LDS POV.

Can you prove that Adam = Michael, Noah = Gabriel from the HB only, or is it a new reveletion has been revealed to JS?

I have one more question about the flood will leave it for next time, guess enough qsing

Thanks in advance

Marco19 said:

Hello dear LDS friends,

While reading Ensign, the concept of Noah=Gabriel attracted me.
The article here explains that Noah - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism
I wonder what this means:

What positions are, and who stands in each position?

In D&C 128:21 says:

The question is: Who is Raphael from LDS POV.

Can you prove that Adam = Michael, Noah = Gabriel from the HB only, or is it a new reveletion has been revealed to JS?

I have one more question about the flood will leave it for next time, guess enough qsing

Thanks in advance

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Since I usually take a stab at your questions, Marco, I just didn't want you to think I'd missed this one. I really don't have a clue as to "what the positions are and who stands in each position." I also don't know who Raphael is or why we believe Adam to be Michael or Noah to be Gabriel. So if someone responds to your questions, I'll learn something, too.

Hello,

LDS hold that God is a God of order. The divine realm is organized. Archangels are not original to Mormon Thought (the same notion can be found in Judaism, Islam and larger Christianity), but Mormons recognize the concept. Archangels are angels that have higher authority than others. Michael is held as the Archangel. Depending on the sect there are up to seven archangels. The most commonly held archangels are:

Michael
Gabriel
Raphael

The remaining four have different names, depending on the text and sect. For example, in the Book of Enoch the list is:

Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel, Saraqael.

In writings of Pseudo-Dionysus* the list is:

Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Chamuel, Jophiel.

Eastern Orthodoxy has the list as:

Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Selaphiel, Jegudiel

Islam again has different names. In Judeo-Christian Tradition, the Devil is often seen as having been an archangel who then fell. Mormons also believe he was one with authority: a Son of the Morning** though there is no explicit reference to him being an archangel.

LDS hold that Michael is Adam. This is based on DC 128:21. It is simply an assertion in the revelation. Joseph Smith is reported to have said that Gabriel was Noah. There is no scriptural reference for this, though most Mormons accept the claim. Raphael has never been explicitly identified with any mortal by Mormon leadership or scripture.


*A 5th Century work that is Neo-Platonic in orientation but had massive impact on Medieval Christian Thought.

** This is what the name/title Lucifer means: it’s a reference to the morning star: Venus.

Hello dear LDs friends,

Thank you both for your respond and sharing thoughts, I'm going to make deeper research about this issue.

Since everything has an order, then I wonder what would be Satan's position? was/is he part of high positioned angels, I'm trying to not say Archangel since you didn't mention him.
Is there a rank for angels, as Maimonides mentioned in Judaism or it's simply two types "Arch" and "regular" angels?

Sorry for my naive question, but I wonder how comes that somebody resurrected and transformed into an angel even before the Armageddon occured?
Isn't the case is to die wait till resurrection, then going to spirit world (but not back to our pre-mortal condition)?
Adam & Noah being Angels then having a mortal body then becoming angels again (Noah appeared to Mary), Moroni ... and may be some others left the earth before the day of Judgement?
Actually I have two questions here:
-How they've resurrected before the day of judgment?
-How they've become Angels again? (It's not what the plan of salvation is about)

Thanks again

Marco19 said:

Hello dear LDs friends,

Thank you both for your respond and sharing thoughts, I'm going to make deeper research about this issue.

Since everything has an order, then I wonder what would be Satan's position? was/is he part of high positioned angels, I'm trying to not say Archangel since you didn't mention him.
Is there a rank for angels, as Maimonides mentioned in Judaism or it's simply two types "Arch" and "regular" angels?

Sorry for my naive question, but I wonder how comes that somebody resurrected and transformed into an angel even before the Armageddon occured?
Isn't the case is to die wait till resurrection, then going to spirit world (but not back to our pre-mortal condition)?
Adam & Noah being Angels then having a mortal body then becoming angels again (Noah appeared to Mary), Moroni ... and may be some others left the earth before the day of Judgement?
Actually I have two questions here:
-How they've resurrected before the day of judgment?
-How they've become Angels again? (It's not what the plan of salvation is about)

Thanks again

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Actually, we believe that angels can be either resurrected beings or beings who still haven't experienced mortality. We believe that a very small number of people who have already lived have been resurrected already, but these are definitely in the minority. Since an angel is merely a messenger, it's entirely possible that someone like Adam, Noah or Moroni could be angels with respect to the role they have now assumed, but no longer be angels once the need for angels is no longer needed.

(You come up with some really good questions, Marco!)

Marco19 said:

Hello dear LDs friends,

Thank you both for your respond and sharing thoughts, I'm going to make deeper research about this issue.

Since everything has an order, then I wonder what would be Satan's position? was/is he part of high positioned angels, I'm trying to not say Archangel since you didn't mention him.
Is there a rank for angels, as Maimonides mentioned in Judaism or it's simply two types "Arch" and "regular" angels?

Sorry for my naive question, but I wonder how comes that somebody resurrected and transformed into an angel even before the Armageddon occured?
Isn't the case is to die wait till resurrection, then going to spirit world (but not back to our pre-mortal condition)?
Adam & Noah being Angels then having a mortal body then becoming angels again (Noah appeared to Mary), Moroni ... and may be some others left the earth before the day of Judgement?
Actually I have two questions here:
-How they've resurrected before the day of judgment?
-How they've become Angels again? (It's not what the plan of salvation is about)

Thanks again

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To you questions:


Satan no longer has a position. He is cast out. As I mentioned, prior to that event he was a Son of the Morning which we understand means he had high standing among the heavenly hosts.


Aside from Archangels, there are references to Seraphim and Cherubim. These are thought to be rankings among angels.



As Katzpur mentioned: the meaning of angel is messenger*, thus any being acting as a messenger for the Divine is an angel, resurrected or no is not a factor.


Per resurrection: We hold that Christ was the first fruits (first to be resurrected). The First Resurrection commenced with Him and continues through to His Return. LDS also hold that Christ went to the Spirit World during His three days between His death and resurrection. Part of what occurred there was He broke the Gates of Hell, meaning death could not longer hold back the worthy from moving to the next step which includes resurrection. It is believed those from the time of Adam down to Christ's intervention that were worthy were resurrected following Christ and received their portion. Abraham is given as an example.


Do the above answer your questions?



* We have been using angel in a general sense. Many take angel as a being (something created as such), rather than one performing a function. To be technically correct, unless one is performing that role, we should think it terms of spirits and resurrected beings.

Do the above answer your questions?

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Sort of, but still have qs

According to LDS Bible dictionary: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/angels?lang=eng
says:

We learn from latter-day revelation that there are two classes of heavenly beings who minister for the Lord: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Spirits are those beings who either have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone (unembodied) or who have once had a mortal body and have died and are awaiting the Resurrection (disembodied). Ordinarily the word angel means those ministering persons who have a body of flesh and bone, being either resurrected from the dead (reembodied), or else translated, as were Enoch, Elijah, etc. (D&C 129).

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OK, it's clear, except the idea that:

Christ was the first fruits (first to be resurrected)

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I'm stumped with the idea, if Jesus was the first, then how comes Noah appeared to Mary?

He broke the Gates of Hell

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In this case, none was there (spirit world) and will be till the end time, is it correct?

D&C 132 says:

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

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17 talk about punishment (being single), 18 adds that the only way for eternal marriage can be done here on earth with temple sealing,
I wonder how a single person feels about these two verses? or in other words, do they have any hope for marriage after resurrection?

Thank you

Marco19 said:

OK, it's clear, except the idea that:
I'm stumped with the idea, if Jesus was the first, then how comes Noah appeared to Mary?

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I'm not sure this is the right answer, but it's the best I can do... We LDS believe that the spirit essentially has the same appearance as the physical body. As you will recall, when Jesus first appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection, they were at first afraid because they thought they'd "seen a spirit." This would imply that a spirit can, in fact, be seen -- at least under certain circumstances. My theory is that when Noah appeared to Mary (by the name Gabriel), he had died but was not yet resurrected. In other words, she was seeing him in spirit form, just as the Apostles thought they were seeing Jesus. The only way we would know for sure whether he was a resurrected being (and I don't believe he was, since you are right that Christ was the first) was if Mary had been able to touch him to confirm that, like the risen Christ, he had a body of flesh and bones.

In this case, none was there (spirit world) and will be till the end time, is it correct?

D&C 132 says:


17 talk about punishment (being single), 18 adds that the only way for eternal marriage can be done here on earth with temple sealing,
I wonder how a single person feels about these two verses? or in other words, do they have any hope for marriage after resurrection?

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Yes, we believe the Spirit World will be around as long as there is a need for it, which would actually be until the end of the Millennium at the time of the Second Resurrection.

As far as how a single person might see these verses, it's hard for me as a married person to say with any degree of accuracy. Of course, we perform posthumous sealings, just as we do posthumous baptisms, so sealings can be done for those who were not sealed during their mortal lives. As far as those who never married are concerned, the following statement from a late-General Authority, Marion D. Hanks, comes to mind: “To believe in God is to know that all the rules will be fair, and that there will be wonderful surprises.” (The original quote comes from Ugo Betti, an Italian judge and author.)

My theory is that when Noah appeared to Mary (by the name Gabriel), he had died but was not yet resurrected. In other words, she was seeing him in spirit form, just as the Apostles thought they were seeing Jesus.

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The Apostles saw him because he was risen, is that the case with Noah?

And in general, the idea of death is to wait till resurrection, then how comes Noah get a spirit form? I'm curious to know how you get to this conclusion.

Thanks in advance

Marco19 said:

The Apostles saw him because he was risen, is that the case with Noah?

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Yes,they saw Him because He was risen, but I don't think that was the case with Noah. When Jesus corrected His Apostles and told them not to be afraid, He specifically told them that He was not just a spirit but had flesh and bones. What He did not do was say something like, "If I were not a resurrected man, you would not have been able to see me, because spirits are invisible."

And in general, the idea of death is to wait till resurrection, then how comes Noah get a spirit form? I'm curious to know how you get to this conclusion.

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I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "a spirit form." We believe, as you may already know, that we believe all spirit to be matter -- just highly refined matter that cannot as a rule be seen by mortal beings. We believe that the spirit of men exists in Heaven prior to the time a person is born. During a person's premortal life, he has "a spirit form." During mortality, the spirit resides within the physical body, giving it life. At death, it leaves the mortal body but does not die. It continues to exist in "spirit form." I believe this must have been Noah's state when he appeared as Gabriel to Mary. Once he is resurrected, his spirit will once again reside in a body of flesh and bones, just like Jesus' resurrected spirit did when He appeared to His Apostles. It's just that this new body is immortal, meaning that the spirit will never again be separated from it.

I don't know if that's what you were getting at or not, but if it's not, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

You are correct,

At death, it leaves the mortal body but does not die. It continues to exist in "spirit form."

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I think it's my mistake because I thought that the spirit world will be open only after Jesus, as Orontes mentioned:

He broke the Gates of Hell, meaning death could not longer hold back the worthy from moving to the next step which includes resurrection

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So, it seems that the spirit world was always open and all who die they directly go there as spirit form (before and after Jesus' 1st advent).

But the concept of teaching the gospel has been started after Jesus being there for three days, even he taught them.

I hope now the picture is unblurred, plz feel free to correct.

Thanks in advance

Marco19 said:

You are correct,


I think it's my mistake because I thought that the spirit world will be open only after Jesus, as Orontes mentioned:

So, it seems that the spirit world was always open and all who die they directly go there as spirit form (before and after Jesus' 1st advent).

But the concept of teaching the gospel has been started after Jesus being there for three days, even he taught them.

I hope now the picture is unblurred, plz feel free to correct.

Thanks in advance

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I think you've got it. The Spirit World has existed since the beginning. Prior to Jesus' death, those who were there had no hope of redemption for their sins, and the part of it known as "prison" was separated from the part known as "paradise" by a large, impassible gulf. Jesus bridged that gulf and made it possible for the dead to hear his gospel preached -- by Him, for the three days He spent teaching there, and forever afterwards by those there who had already accepted the gospel. Even today, we don't believe that anyone dies and immediately goes to Heaven. Everyone -- the good and the bad -- await the resurrection in the Spirit World.

May I just add, Marco, that I think you are one class act. I've never run into anybody on these forums who has such an interest in learning about all religions and actually understanding their beliefs. You ask such intelligent questions and you really do make an effort to appreciate where people are coming from in their beliefs.

Marco19 said:

You are correct,


I think it's my mistake because I thought that the spirit world will be open only after Jesus, as Orontes mentioned: "He broke the Gates of Hell, meaning death could no longer hold back the worthy from moving to the next step which includes resurrection "
Thanks in advance

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I think Katzpur answered your questions since my last post. Just to clarify my statement you note above: the key is the adjective 'worthy'. Those who had kept their covenants prior to Christ's advent were ready to move forward. The rest still needing to be washed clean through the Lord's atonement remained. Based on things you reference, I assume you have access to the Doctrine and Covenants. Look at Section 138.

Thank you Katzpur for clarifying, now I have the whole picture.
Well, it's my duty to ask and learn, at the end we are all brothers and sisters NOT only by simple words, but rather implying in our daily life.
As I make effort to love/know/understand my physical brother & sisters, I believe it's the same with all other world wide brothers and sisters.
I'm indeed happy that most are kind try to help me to understand them, they open their doors and welcome me anytime, this makes me more eager & responsible to know them better.

Thanks Orontes, I haven't read that section before, it really helps to imagine/have the feeling how it looks like.
By the way the author is a very special person, whenever I feel down simply I play "does the journey seem long" from a few years back conference.

Well, as I mentioned in my first post, I still have one more tiny question:

In the link below
LDS Church News - Noah, who is Angel Gabriel, is next to Adam in priesthood
says:

Noah lived 600 years before the flood and 350 years after the flood (Gen. 7:6; 9:29.)
Life spans were reduced by about half after the flood of Noah . . . and half again after the Tower of Babel. . . .
"What caused such long life at first and then the phased reductions has not been revealed. Although some hypotheses have been raised, neither research nor revelation has yet sustained any of them." (A Latter-day Saint Commentary on the Old Testament, pp. 24,32.)

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Is this means that the creator punished the people by reducing the life span ?

If the flood reduced to 350, then tower of Babel made another half (175), then there is another event to reduce into 87.5?
I'm assuming so, because nowadays none can live 175 years, but half of it is sort of an average (even less, Wikipedia says 67.2)
So, what is the third event?

Thanks in advance

There is no official LDS stance on life spans.

There is a view that the life span of men changed from the Antediluvian Period and after, gradually moving toward what is common in the Modern Era. Noah as a creature from before The Flood lived a life span compatible with those from that prior era. A changed world meant those that followed reflected that changed reality, gradually lessening in years over time. This perspective usually culminates with Psalms 90:10 (which is taken to have been written by Moses) where things seem to be generally fixed thereafter, save for the ravages of living in poverty or a culturally undeveloped area etc..






The above is not the only view. Another perspective would be that the writers of the Torah (around the 10 Century B.C.E. at the earliest) elongated the lives of the great men of the past to add significance to their persons. As one gets closer to the time frame of the writers, the asserted life spans get closer to what one would take as a more normal life span.