Allow me a moment to rant about something that really gets on my nerves. I love how some short sighted people think that a book (mind you a very important book) can tell them what happened when this universe was formed. Needless to say a book that has been edited by kings, popes and monks for millennium to suit their own personal and political views and ideas. How can I or anyone on the tiny speck of dirt know the true meaning of creation? I am boggled by the size of this rock I live on and the sheer numbers of stars in the sky. So tell me again how this book explains anything and why it got here. It's a bit arrogant to think you know God when you can't comprehend the basic things that make up His creation.. Rant over
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just a little rant I wrote about this whole silly debate
- Thread starter Thephio
- Start date
Greetings, new guy!
I put no stock in books, so I can't answer your question.
I put no stock in books, so I can't answer your question.
Welcome. I feel the same.
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Interesting view from a Christian in general, however I see it more likely that a Protestant say that rather than a Catholic. I've seen many Christians with the same thought as you, however says that it is mostly if not completely hypothetical.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I do not exactly use the Bible as a source of my spirituality. But, while I find it can be reliable at times, I will just say that, instead of it being accurate metaphysically, I think that it can be accurate philosophically.
Also: Warm welcome to you, sir! Here's a drink to the both!
I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I do not exactly use the Bible as a source of my spirituality. But, while I find it can be reliable at times, I will just say that, instead of it being accurate metaphysically, I think that it can be accurate philosophically.
Also: Warm welcome to you, sir! Here's a drink to the both!
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
While I appreciate the sentiment, I think we tend to commit the sin of ethnocentrism when we assume that the people of old were so crass and ignorant. I am not convinced by the fundamentalists nor the anti-religious atheists who insist that we read Genesis literally. Within the Christian tradition, from the time of the Church Fathers, Genesis chapter one has commonly been interpreted metaphorically (see below). Margaret Barker asserts that Genesis chapter one is a narrative about the construction of Solomon's Temple, which served as a sacramental microcosm of creation.
I also want to point out that the biblical literature has not really been edited by "kings, popes and monks." We have manuscripts that date pretty far back to late antiquity. The biblical texts we possess are generally considered to be pretty decent in their accuracy.
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Clement of Alexandria
"And how could creation take place in time, seeing time was born along with things which exist? . . . That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: ‘This is the book of the generation, also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth’ [Gen. 2:4]. For the expression ‘when they were created’ intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression ‘in the day that God made them,’ that is, in and by which God made ‘all things,’ and ‘without which not even one thing was made,’ points out the activity exerted by the Son" (Miscellanies 6:16 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first and second and third day existed without a sun and moon and stars and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? . . . I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance and not literally" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:1:16 [A.D. 225]).
St. Augustine
"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 [A.D. 408]).
I also want to point out that the biblical literature has not really been edited by "kings, popes and monks." We have manuscripts that date pretty far back to late antiquity. The biblical texts we possess are generally considered to be pretty decent in their accuracy.
----------------------------
Clement of Alexandria
"And how could creation take place in time, seeing time was born along with things which exist? . . . That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: ‘This is the book of the generation, also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth’ [Gen. 2:4]. For the expression ‘when they were created’ intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression ‘in the day that God made them,’ that is, in and by which God made ‘all things,’ and ‘without which not even one thing was made,’ points out the activity exerted by the Son" (Miscellanies 6:16 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first and second and third day existed without a sun and moon and stars and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? . . . I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance and not literally" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:1:16 [A.D. 225]).
St. Augustine
"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 [A.D. 408]).
shawn001
Well-Known Member
My relatives took in Martin Luther when he was 16. Frau Von Cotta.
However, I am agnostic.
The Essene Gosel Of Peace
Book One
"And Jesus himself sat down in their midst and said: "I tell you truly, none can be happy, except he do the Law."
And the others answered: "We all do the laws of Moses, our lawgiver, even as they are written in the holy scriptures."
And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"
"How may we read the laws of God elsewhere than in the scriptures? Where are they written? Read them to us from there where you see them, for we know nothing else but the scriptures which we have inherited from our forefathers. Tell us the laws of which you speak, that hearing them we may be healed and justified."
Jesus said: "You do not understand the words of life, because you are in death. Darkness darkens your eyes and your ears are stopped with deafness. For I tell you, it profits you not at all that you pore over dead scriptures if by your deeds you deny him who has given you the scriptures."
It just fit what your were saying it seemed to me.
I personally don't believe in any one particular organized religion. I actually suspect, we along the long road evolved different religions as well.
"can tell them what happened when this universe was formed."
It can't of course. Fortunately, we have science. Its amazing too how much of the beauty of the universe and how it works is missed by some people who don't bother to look or understand because of personal belief in taking the Bible literally.
However, I am agnostic.
The Essene Gosel Of Peace
Book One
"And Jesus himself sat down in their midst and said: "I tell you truly, none can be happy, except he do the Law."
And the others answered: "We all do the laws of Moses, our lawgiver, even as they are written in the holy scriptures."
And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"
"How may we read the laws of God elsewhere than in the scriptures? Where are they written? Read them to us from there where you see them, for we know nothing else but the scriptures which we have inherited from our forefathers. Tell us the laws of which you speak, that hearing them we may be healed and justified."
Jesus said: "You do not understand the words of life, because you are in death. Darkness darkens your eyes and your ears are stopped with deafness. For I tell you, it profits you not at all that you pore over dead scriptures if by your deeds you deny him who has given you the scriptures."
It just fit what your were saying it seemed to me.
I personally don't believe in any one particular organized religion. I actually suspect, we along the long road evolved different religions as well.
"can tell them what happened when this universe was formed."
It can't of course. Fortunately, we have science. Its amazing too how much of the beauty of the universe and how it works is missed by some people who don't bother to look or understand because of personal belief in taking the Bible literally.
What I am getting at is the people who truly believe that the earth is 6000 years old. It makes me quite ill to think that these people would want children taught falsehoods and myths made by a bronze age tribe 3000 some odd years ago to explain how their world worked. I respect other peoples views and beliefs but being asinine to this extreme is a hard pill to swallow. Furthermore what does any of this have to do with your personal salvation? Zip zero nothing. Its just a few people who take a book albeit an important book literally to gain attention and maybe 15 minutes of fame...
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Thephio said:
Anyone who believes that the earth and the universe is only 6,000 years old is out of touch with both science and the Bible.
If you read Gen 1:1 it simply says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". There is no timeframe given between verse one and what comes after. It could have been millions or even billions of years.
The creative "days" were not literal 24 hour days either, but epochs of thousands of years each. Peter tells us that God counts time in a very different way to us. (2 Pet 3:8)
Well there are as many interpretations as there are religions. You have to evaluate what each one teaches on its merits, remembering that God's people have never been 'mainstream'. Jesus was seen as the leader of a small Jewish sect, but who exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the day. He posed such a threat to them and their lifestyle that they plotted to do away with him. Jesus said that his disciples would cop the same treatment that he did. (John 15:19, 20)
The Bible is not a science textbook but when it touches on matters of science, it is very accurate.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Religious debate forums are the only way to go!
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
When does the bible touch on science???
Hah!
We have the truth here!
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Chapter Two....Genesis
A petri dish, a chosen specimen, anesthesia, surgery, cloning, genetic manipulation
and behavior alteration.
Man of Faith
Well-Known Member
Uh, why?
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
I fail to see how you getting rid of them will make any difference seeing as it is painfully obvious you do not understand anything written in them.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Those are things done by understanding science they aren't science...I'm fairly sure you don't know how cloning works...or genetic manipulation...or what an allegory is.
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
The Origin of Species is not a book about the origin of the world.
Man of Faith
Well-Known Member
I should still get rid of it because according to the OP, books have been edited "to suit their own personal and politcal views and ideas."