e.r.m.
Church of Christ
The Bible needs to actually make a statement for itself connecting the two. It doesn't. This is getting old.
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Baptism with the Holy Spirit Salvation
- Thread starter e.r.m.
- Start date
Really.
Here is the statement. ITS AN EXAMPLE of salvation.
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
NT:5178 a
tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).
This is getting old.
Here is the statement. ITS AN EXAMPLE of salvation.
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
NT:5178 a
tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).
This is getting old.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
1 Corinthians 10:1, 7-10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. [7] Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry. [8] We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did---and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. [9] We should not test Christ, as some of them did---and were killed by snakes. [10] And do not grumble, as some of them did---and were killed by the destroying angel.
1 Corinthians 10:11 makes reference to the Hebrews with Moses.
Neither it, nor anywhere else in the Bible makes any link between the thief and anyone else's salvation. Again, it is YOU that does this. It is YOUR belief and nothing more. It is not Biblical.
Yes this verse is refering to Moses, but it also show us God uses examples, types, patterns, parables, allogories
Take the example of the lamb of God. It it a small wooly baby sheep eating grass????
No its an example and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come
There are many examples of salvation in scripture and this is one of them.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
It is not up to you to decide what goes with what. A broad principal can be drawn that God responds to humility. The Bible makes no connection between the thief's salvation and any other soul. You go by what's written in the Bible, not your own opinion.
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It was written. It had to do with the thiefs salvation. He was speaking to Jesus. Jesus said this day you will be in paradise.
What do you want?
need?
Why does this bother you so bad?
I did not write that what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, nor is it your right for you to ignore what was written in the Bible which you seem to claim you believe in.
Because it was written in scripture about the thiefs salvation makes it a spiritual and scriptural example; thats is reason enough to make this an example of salvation.
It is you who are deny what was written.
The thief was justified by faith because He saw Jesus as the Christ.
AND JESUS confirmed his salvation right there on the spot.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
A scripture that says what you say.
It's wrong when people try to pass off their inferrred beliefs as Biblical instead of as their inferred beliefs.
You gave me only a scripture on the Hebrews with Moses.
No, the account of the thief being told does not make it an example for those after.
Luke 5:24 is the precedence. That if you're face to face on earth with Jesus, he could forgive your sins directly. The paralytic and Mary the sister of Martha were examples of Luke 5:24 for those who came after. The thief on the cross was the final illustration of Luke 5:24, as Jesus left earth soon thereafter. The thief was no model itself for anyone after him.
Jesus did, with the thief only, and with those who fit Luke 5:24 before him. He was not a model for the future.
The Bible already establishes its pattern, When you look. You are instead just seeking out your own pattern.
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e.r.m
The justification for my belief is Jesus told the thief he would be in paradise and absolutely was no condition attached to it. I do not need you or your pope or preacher or system of whatever religious system to tell me something is not true because you cannot line it up to your taboo. No I am not denying what is written, I am embracing Jesus words to the thief on the cross. You are denying what he said and what was spoken to the thief has no place in your taboos. Paradise speaks of being with God.
Luke 23: 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Here is the verse you told me I did not have.
What does paradise mean in this verse?
The justification for my belief is Jesus told the thief he would be in paradise and absolutely was no condition attached to it. I do not need you or your pope or preacher or system of whatever religious system to tell me something is not true because you cannot line it up to your taboo. No I am not denying what is written, I am embracing Jesus words to the thief on the cross. You are denying what he said and what was spoken to the thief has no place in your taboos. Paradise speaks of being with God.
Luke 23: 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Here is the verse you told me I did not have.
What does paradise mean in this verse?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I hate when that happens!
That doesn't answer my question, though. Here's the question again:
Why should God's salvific efficacy be confined to a command? It's too legalistic an approach. Spirituality isn't legalistic.
If the water isn't efficacious, it's symbolic, because it's unnecessary.
"Part" of being saved. A part that's largely symbolic or sacramental, rather than efficacious in and of itself.
If you're into bibliolatry, then yes. If not, then not necessarily.
According to a church that is heavily invested in symbology.
Not, if I understand your use of that term correctly. The bible has no authority other than that which the church has bestowed upon it.
Corruption? Who said anything about corruption? I'm approaching it from the fact that the bible was written by believers for believers, and carries the authority of the church of believers. Something can only be corrupt if it has become something other than what it was meant to be.
That's fine and I respect that. But you don't get to choose for a world full of Xtians.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I disagree. Jesus, himself breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Salvation is salvation. Why do we have to have all these hard and fast rules to follow as if we can somehow channel God's works ourselves? if God can save the thief on the cross, God needs no human sacrament in order to effect salvation for anyone else. The sacrament is there merely for our convenience, not God's necessity.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You'll have to define what it ultimately means to "get saved" before you can make such a statement.
I agree with you, to me basic salvation is pretty darn spiritual but really basic. Its believing. The thief on the cross knew Jesus was the messiah. nothing more. But our full salvation is a life time effect and that is where the glory is. So many of God' peoplebelieve once there are saved there is nothing more. WRONG... there is God's elect and thean there is all the rest of us.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I disagree. Salvation is God taking pity on us and loving us in spite our dirt. Salvation is an act of God, not a mind set of human beings.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Sorry, been away for a while.
Jesus said this to the thief on the cross. That's only as much as you can substantiate. The Bible has to say that there is a relationship between this blessed man and somebody else.
You are just digging in your heals, nothing else. YOU WANT TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE. You're screaming and stomping your feet on the ground. "IT IS THIS WAY!!!"
People do this OFTEN when they have no proof.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
.Trying to catch up. A lot has been written in my abscence.
1. God can make so whatever He wants. 2. It only seems legalistic to the gentile western mind. To the first century church, who had no problem with it, it was not in the least bit legalistic.
God is efficacious in the water, theferore necessary. 'Symbolic' is exclusively a concoction of later centuries.
I had to look up that word, lol. I'm into original intent, which is in the Biblical authors' words, and form of expression, not in later revisions, e.g.- 'Symbolic'. That was language of a later era. The original is pristine.
The Church has no authority other that what the Bible has bestowed upon it. Nothing the Church says can stand up if what they say contradicts Jesus and the apostles.
Like 'Symbolic'. Placing truth in the hands of men leads to inevitable deviation from the Bible, and prolifertaion of divison and diversification.
Not trying to.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Your point? Not challenging, just asking for clarification.