Tumah
Veteran Member
Not at all. Just that the wrong intention doesn't necessarily negate the requirement to fulfill the Law.
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Fulfilling the Law
- Thread starter Tumah
- Start date
Not at all. Just that the wrong intention doesn't necessarily negate the requirement to fulfill the Law.
Quite true, and then we have the teaching that proper action can lead to a change in beliefs.
If you care for the poor, regardless of your motivation, you will begin to really care for the poor.
If you mind what you say about others, regardless of why you do it, you will eventually care about what you say.
If you treat others with kindness and respect, you will eventually respect and feel kindness towards others.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
thats true, but only partly. Jews and all mankind are alienated from God. To get closer to God, we need permanent & lasting atonement from sin (which keeps us alienated) and death (which ends our life and makes us even more alienated)
The mosaic law alone will not end sin and death. More is needed and that is why God promised to send a messiah who would "...finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite..." as prophesied in Dan 9:24 and also described at length in Isaiah 53.
The only way to get close to God is to be free of sin and death.
Tumah
Veteran Member
So instead of that being a fairly strong proof that the Messiah won't be a king and priest, you decided that the Law of Moses has to end.
CMike
Well-Known Member
CMike
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by CMike
The purpose of jewish law is to get closer to G-D.
Oy.
Man will always sin. It's the ability to overcome temptation that brings us closer to G-D.
Without the temptation to sin we can't get closer to G-D. We would be robots.
As far as the passage from Daniel you quoted, once again context.
24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
It's dealing of a specific time. The seventy years is from the destruction of the first temple until it's destruction the second time.
The purpose of jewish law is to get closer to G-D.
Oy.
Man will always sin. It's the ability to overcome temptation that brings us closer to G-D.
Without the temptation to sin we can't get closer to G-D. We would be robots.
As far as the passage from Daniel you quoted, once again context.
24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
It's dealing of a specific time. The seventy years is from the destruction of the first temple until it's destruction the second time.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Originally Posted by CMike
The purpose of jewish law is to get closer to G-D.
Oy.
Man will always sin. It's the ability to overcome temptation that brings us closer to G-D.
Without the temptation to sin we can't get closer to G-D. We would be robots.
As far as the passage from Daniel you quoted, once again context.
24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
It's dealing of a specific time. The seventy years is from the destruction of the first temple until it's destruction the second time.
do you really think the Daniel prophecy refers to the temples destruction the 2nd time?
roger1440
I do stuff
The foundation of all the commandments in the Torah rests on the very first one, to walk in Gods way and to cleave to him. Without the very first one, the remaining commandments are meaningless. I am deliberately using the King James Version of the Bible for the following verses because of the use of the word cleave. The kabbalists have a preference for the word cleave. I prefer to use the word embrace. Either or, it means the same. The starting point on ones path must be to seek God. The destination of the path is to embrace God. It is no coincidence the meaning of the English word religion means to reunite. Wrong motivation will only accomplish wrong results.
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (Deuteronomy 13:4)
22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him; 23 Then will the Lord drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves. (Deuteronomy 11:22-23)
G-d Awareness - Chasidic Masters
roger1440
I do stuff
The Gospel writers were so insistent on Jesus keeping the Law, Jesus observed the Law even after death.
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. (Deuteronomy 21:23)
52 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus body. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. (Luke 23:52-54)
52 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus body. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. (Luke 23:52-54)
CMike
Well-Known Member
And look closely at the passages that you posted.
They are based on actions. You shall do the commandments, you shall cleave to him, etc.
It's not really talking about intentions that much. It's talking about actual things that are supposed to be done.
It's always great to do things with great intentions. However, the actions may cause the beliefs to follow.
For example, one may make big donations to the poor to get big tax donations. However, he still fulfills the commandment to help the poor regardless of the intention.
It would be cooler if he did it for the sole intention of helping the poor, but he still gets credit for the mitzvah.
I think this is contrary to christianity.
In christianity all you have to do is believe in jesus. It doesn't matter if you sin or if you don't sin, as long as you accept jesus as "your saviour" you are supposedly going to heaven.
So theoratically Hitler can be in heaven if he accepted jesus right before he died.
Judaism is much harder. You have to actually do things.
I think that's why Paul got so many butts in the seats.
It's a lot easier to sell when all you have to do is say believe in jesus and you are saved than keeping 613 commandments.
roger1440
I do stuff
A person who gives and wants nothing in return gives far more than a person who wants to receive something back.
"The wicked borrow and do not repay,
but the righteous give generously;" (Psalm 37:2)
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If you really dont know why you should take a beginners course in your your own faith
Joshua 8:31, 32 "the law of Moses"
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Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes. Context is king. If you read Daniel's whole prayer there, you will see that he first offers prayers of repentance, then requests G-d's mercy on Jerusalem, the Temple and Israel. So the answer that he received is going to be about Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple.
I don't understand what you mean about "the very first one." In the verses you quote Israel is required to follow G-d's commandments. I don't understand what you meant to sat.
Avi1001
reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Well stated, Tar. I think it would be very valuable to discuss the purpose of interfaith dialogue with other posters, in this forum. I feel that all too often, it is used to convince themselves: "I am right and you are wrong" !
dantech
Well-Known Member
Your point is incorrect because stoning and sacrifice are no longer applied because of scripture which clearly shows that animals may only be sacrificed in a holy place which God chooses (ie: The Temple). Stoning was only done when there was a Sanhedrin, which there isn't anymore. It has nothing to do with the current culture or time we live in, it has to do with scripture.
If you were to say "We are Christians and the law doesn't apply to us." I would just leave it at that. By saying that they are no longer relevant implies that they once were relevant to you. So explain to me why it was relevant at some point in time to not eat pork, but it is irrelevant to do so today.
He is merely quoting the Torah. This same Torah says about many laws or feasts that they should be everlasting to future generations. At the very least, if the Torah was once relevant to you, then these laws should still be followed.
Because God is a progressive God and His seconds are always greater than his first.
dantech
Well-Known Member
Oh really?
Please show me how God is a progressive God, using scripture. Please show me how he hasn't been perfect since day 1 (figure of speech).
I can also say things like 1+3=48 without backing up my claims.
CMike
Well-Known Member
roger1440
I do stuff
Jesus was Jewish. Jesuss audience was Jewish. The writers of the canonical Gospels were Jewish. Jewish scripture was used as a point of reference for the canonical Gospels. According to the canonical Gospels, Jesus stressed to his Jewish audience they are to observe the commandments. But how do Gentiles fit into the equation? The answer must be found within Jewish scripture. To the best of my knowledge Gentiles are not required to convert to Judaism. But then again, what do I know? Im just some heretic Christian, LOL