The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Tumah said:

Please feel free to provide Scriptural references to back up your incredible statements.

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

Hello Tumah. Then I will put some commandments of the Old Testament that Jesus Christ abolished because missing to mercy.
The Law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament because they were not God's true Law. The Gospel says so:

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. Nevertheless I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced, commits adultery" (Matthew 5:...)

The jews of that time wrote in the law of the Old Testament that could separated from women for many reasons when they tired of them, but Jesus abolished these commandments. These commandments were written into the Old Testament and Jesus Christ abolished them.

"Again you have heard that it was said by them of old not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. Nevertheless I tell you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because you can not do a single white or black hair. But let your ' Yes, yes, no, no, because what is more than these cometh of evil" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were accustomed to swear in many cases, and so wrote it in the laws of the Old Testament... The Lord abolished these precepts of the oaths.

The law of retaliation ("Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth") ABOLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were in the habit of applying the talionis law (law of revenge) in their judgments (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn... and so on.), And so they wrote it in the laws of the old Testament (Exodus 21:24-25). The Lord abolished this law of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" because it was a law that did not included forgiveness or mercy, then weren't God's Law, because what God likes is the mercy.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you...." (Matthew 5...)

The Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ abolished these Old Testament laws and commands us to love our enemies.

Other Old Testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be dead". (Leviticus 20:10)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she fornicate, dishonor his father; she shall be burnt with fire" (Leviticus 21:9)

That Is not what Jesus did with the adulterous woman in the Gospel Example:

"And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more. Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life". (Juan 8:3-12)

With this teaching, Jesus abolished the Old Testament commandments that ordered kill people for various reasons. So far we have collected some examples of Old Testament commandments that Jesus abolished, but the argument that Jesus had with the Jews because of the law, is much broader and at this discussion is devoted a large part of the Gospel. Jesus taught us the true law of God.

ABOUT THE SHABBAT'S LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

Says the Old Testament:

"And while the children of Israel in the wilderness , they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation, and put him in prison, because was not declared what should be done to him. and the Lord said to Moses: man dies, all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp. congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him, and died, as the LORD commanded Moses" (Numbers 15: 32-36)

That's not what Jesus commanded us:

"At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath, and His disciples were hungry and began to pluck heads of grain and eat. Seeing the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do on the day rest. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did when he and those with him were hungry, how he entered the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful to eat neither he nor those who were with him, but only for the priests ? or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? for I say that one greater than the temple is here. and if you had known what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, not have condemned the innocent, for the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. " (Matthew 12: 1-8)

"Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.........

And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5: 8-18)

Click to expand...

Tumah said:

These are not Scriptural references, these are NT references. If I were to write a book today describing how everything it says in the NT is also changed now, would that void the NT in your eyes?

Click to expand...

RabbiO said:

Tumah,

The problem here is apples vs. oranges. Your definition of scripture is not the same definition as Porque77's. For a Christian, what they refer to as the New Testament is scripture, just as, say, the Qu'ran is scripture to a Muslim. The fact that we, as Jews, do not consider those to be scripture does not make it less so for them.

It is fair to note that you disagree with Porque to the extent that he relies on material that is not part of our scripture - even if you agree with his interpretation of his scripture. However, your response was heavy handed because it lacked nuance.

Porque's position is assailable on other grounds, beginning with his misread of Jeremiah and carrying through with his ignorance of Judaism and Jewish law.

Peter

Click to expand...

Tumah said:

I recall once hearing that Christians call the "OT" Scriptures, the "NT" Gospels and the whole kit and caboodle, the Bible.

Click to expand...

RabbiO said:

Porque's position is assailable on other grounds, beginning with his misread of Jeremiah and carrying through with his ignorance of Judaism and Jewish law.

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

The Jews books of the Old Testament were destroyed by the Romans in the time of General Tito, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans...........

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

The Jews books of the Old Testament were destroyed by the Romans in the time of General Tito, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

The books of the Old Testament written in Greek, which was the official language of the Roman Empire remained. And books written in Greek, the Septuagint, which is what survived the destruction, is where everyone took to write the Old Testament.

The Old Testament written in Greek was the translation of the first Christians, and Christians knew very well what they were saying those books.

Depues the centuries, the Jews wanted to build again the scriptures of the Old Testament, but they only had the books of the Old Testament in Greek. Books kept by Christians.

The Writing in Hebrew translations were taken from the Old Testament written in Greek preserved by Christians. But these Hebrew translations are not faithful to the Greek text used by Christians.

Those writings Jews, you have in your hands are just translations of Christian writings. There is no others writings Oldest of the Old Testament.

Christians are well aware of the stories of the Old Testament, and know very well the laws of death sentences, of slavery and sacrifices containing the Old Testament.

Christians carried the gospel to all peoples of the world with a heroic effort. And the Jews, now want to change everything and want to return to silence the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Tumah said:

-Psalms 119:89, Isaiah 40:8
-Isaiah 2:3, Nehemia 8:9

Click to expand...

Jsajeff said:

I would have to counter this thought process entirely with that of my own, an omnipotent and perfect being that created the world itself would never have to change for it. Omnipotence in itself tends to eliminate any need for change, if it is of course true omnipotence.

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

The Jews books of the Old Testament were destroyed by the Romans in the time of General Tito, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

The books of the Old Testament written in Greek, which was the official language of the Roman Empire remained. And books written in Greek, the Septuagint, which is what survived the destruction, is where everyone took to write the Old Testament.

The Old Testament written in Greek was the translation of the first Christians, and Christians knew very well what they were saying those books.

Depues the centuries, the Jews wanted to build again the scriptures of the Old Testament, but they only had the books of the Old Testament in Greek. Books kept by Christians.

The Writing in Hebrew translations were taken from the Old Testament written in Greek preserved by Christians. But these Hebrew translations are not faithful to the Greek text used by Christians.

Those writings Jews, you have in your hands are just translations of Christian writings. There is no others writings Oldest of the Old Testament.

Christians are well aware of the stories of the Old Testament, and know very well the laws of death sentences, of slavery and sacrifices containing the Old Testament.

Christians carried the gospel to all peoples of the world with a heroic effort. And the Jews, now want to change everything and want to return to silence the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has the true commandments of God given to Moses at Sinai. The commandments of the Old Testament are other thing, because the Law was changed by the scribes, as say the prophets:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Click to expand...

Jsajeff said:

I would have to counter this thought process entirely with that of my own, an omnipotent and perfect being that created the world itself would never have to change for it. Omnipotence in itself tends to eliminate any need for change, if it is of course true omnipotence.

Click to expand...

Tumah said:

There is no icon that can adequately express my exasperation to this comment. This is just... I don't even know what.

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

The Jews books of the Old Testament were destroyed by the Romans in the time of General Tito, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

The books of the Old Testament written in Greek, which was the official language of the Roman Empire remained. And books written in Greek, the Septuagint, which is what survived the destruction, is where everyone took to write the Old Testament.

The Old Testament written in Greek was the translation of the first Christians, and Christians knew very well what they were saying those books.

Depues the centuries, the Jews wanted to build again the scriptures of the Old Testament, but they only had the books of the Old Testament in Greek. Books kept by Christians.

The Writing in Hebrew translations were taken from the Old Testament written in Greek preserved by Christians. But these Hebrew translations are not faithful to the Greek text used by Christians.

Those writings Jews, you have in your hands are just translations of Christian writings. There is no others writings Oldest of the Old Testament.

Christians are well aware of the stories of the Old Testament, and know very well the laws of death sentences, of slavery and sacrifices containing the Old Testament.

Christians carried the gospel to all peoples of the world with a heroic effort. And the Jews, now want to change everything and want to return to silence the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has the true commandments of God given to Moses at Sinai. The commandments of the Old Testament are other thing, because the Law was changed by the scribes, as say the prophets:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

The Jews books of the Old Testament were destroyed by the Romans in the time of General Tito, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

The books of the Old Testament written in Greek, which was the official language of the Roman Empire remained. And books written in Greek, the Septuagint, which is what survived the destruction, is where everyone took to write the Old Testament.

The Old Testament written in Greek was the translation of the first Christians, and Christians knew very well what they were saying those books.

Depues the centuries, the Jews wanted to build again the scriptures of the Old Testament, but they only had the books of the Old Testament in Greek. Books kept by Christians.

The Writing in Hebrew translations were taken from the Old Testament written in Greek preserved by Christians. But these Hebrew translations are not faithful to the Greek text used by Christians.

Those writings Jews, you have in your hands are just translations of Christian writings. There is no others writings Oldest of the Old Testament.

Christians are well aware of the stories of the Old Testament, and know very well the laws of death sentences, of slavery and sacrifices containing the Old Testament.

Christians carried the gospel to all peoples of the world with a heroic effort. And the Jews, now want to change everything and want to return to silence the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has the true commandments of God given to Moses at Sinai. The commandments of the Old Testament are other thing, because the Law was changed by the scribes, as say the prophets:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Click to expand...

Space holdings said:

theres a lot to get here guys, i may have to re read it

Click to expand...

Tumah said:

There is no icon that can adequately express my exasperation to this comment. This is just... I don't even know what.

Click to expand...

Levite said:

This is one of the most abysmally ahistorical, uninformed, and generally appalling posts I have ever seen on this forum. And that is really saying something.

Click to expand...

Porque77 said:

:sleep: It is shown that the Jews have nothing to say to Christians that we are writing these arguments.

In times of Jesus Christ went well. The Jews became mad with the wisdom of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is true wisdom and the rest is old wives tale.

Click to expand...