Detroit police chief says armed citizens deter crime

Or to inspire someone to believe that if you are to steal a tv then the best option is to kill the inhabitants before they know you are there - just in case.

There are a lot of potential escalation problems when you bring in a significant disparity in lethality.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Frankly, I think the naive - or at least immature - view is more often held by people on the pro-gun side. They're the ones who often frame things in overly simplistic, black-and-white language of "law-abiding citizens" and "bad guys" (and never the twain shall meet) and think that they're somehow immune to the additional risk that having a gun in their home represents.

However, there's something else that worries me more: the literal "armed camp" mentality I see from many gun advocates. As they say, to the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I get a strong impression from many pro-gun people of an "I've got mine, screw everyone else" mindset, as if their ability to kill someone trying to take their TV means that they don't have to worry about the societal problems that could lead someone to decide that stealing TVs is his best available option in life.

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Yeah, I was talking about this with my hubby. We came to the conclusion that, by carrying a weapon, their perception of the world as a dark and frightening place, and of their fellow human beings as potential threats is reinforced. I think about every time I reach into my purse to feel around for my keys, everything I feel in there brings various ideas to mind. Dry hands or lips, headaches, runny noses, etc. Just imagining carrying around something like pepper spray kind of put me off. Do I want to think about being attacked every time I reach for a Kleenex? Even briefly, idly or subconsciously?

By carrying a weapon, you're reinforcing a perception of the world that it's a violent and dangerous place, which is kind of an unpleasant way to live. You have to work pretty hard to justify that, which is why proponents are so black and white about the whole thing, and seem to live in a "two choices: kill or die" paradigm.

That's just our theory. Very speculative, but it makes sense to us.

Father Heathen said:

Why are you assuming that everyone is untrained? Even the most staunch supporters of the 2nd amendment don't condone irresponsible ownership.

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I wrote:-

Originally Posted by oldbadger View Post
The thread is about a senior cop who seems to be encouraging untrained, uninsured civilians to 'have a go'. It is not about 'guns awash America'. The debate just ran off course.

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Assuming? Everybody untrained?
I'm assuming that a % is untrained, and a huge % is uninsured.

Are you trained? Want to show me? Want to have a go?
This is not a nasty catch-you out job. Just try it. You might do very well.....
EDIT...... It's certainly more fun than arguing round and round.....

Let's say (however likely or unlikely) you are walking towards your car in a superstore car-park with some shopping bags on a quiet Tuesday morning. You have a legal concealed handgun with you. As you reach your car you hear two gun-shots about twenty yards behind you (!).... as you duck down and turn towards the sound, through the gaps of other parked vehicles you can see two males of about twenty years of age, white skinned but with heavily suntanned complexions, wearing 'hoody' training tops, jogging pants and trainers, running after and about thirty yards behind a tall white male of about 45 years, wearing a blue suit and carrying a briefcase in his left hand and a handgun in his right. This single male is running away from the two young males. As he runs you see him fire his handgun back towards the young men as he continues to run away from them, but towards the opposite side of your vehicle. As far as you can tell nobody has seen you. You now, in a fleeting glance (to your left) see that a third young white male wearing similar clothing to the first two men is kneeling down on the ground, some distance behind the others. He is clutching his side and a handgun lays beside him on the ground. A Police officer is standing by this kneeling man, holding a drawn handgun and breathing heavily. This officer points his free hand at you and is calling loudly towards you, but he is agitated and shouting so fast that you cannot determine what he is saying. In these few seconds of time you have no chance to take in any other factors.

What..... if anything....... would you like to do?

oldbadger said:

Let's say (however likely or unlikely) you are walking towards your car in a superstore car-park with some shopping bags on a quiet Tuesday morning. You have a legal concealed handgun with you. As you reach your car you hear two gun-shots about twenty yards behind you (!).... as you duck down and turn towards the sound, through the gaps of other parked vehicles you can see two males of about twenty years of age, white skinned but with heavily suntanned complexions, wearing 'hoody' training tops, jogging pants and trainers, running after and about thirty yards behind a tall white male of about 45 years, wearing a blue suit and carrying a briefcase in his left hand and a handgun in his right. This single male is running away from the two young males. As he runs you see him fire his handgun back towards the young men as he continues to run away from them, but towards the opposite side of your vehicle. As far as you can tell nobody has seen you. You now, in a fleeting glance (to your left) see that a third young white male wearing similar clothing to the first two men is kneeling down on the ground, some distance behind the others. He is clutching his side and a handgun lays beside him on the ground. A Police officer is standing by this kneeling man, holding a drawn handgun and breathing heavily. This officer points his free hand at you and is calling loudly towards you, but he is agitated and shouting so fast that you cannot determine what he is saying. In these few seconds of time you have no chance to take in any other factors.

What..... if anything....... would you like to do?

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First order of business is to find out what the officer is saying.
now since I take "concealed carry" seriously, said officer is not going to know I am carrying until such time as I tell said officer I am carrying.

Your move.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

On a Quaker forum I used to be on, I remember another member describing his encounter with an armed burglar in his house in the middle of the night: he went downstairs to check out the noise, found the burglar, and then calmed him down and offered him a coffee. They sat down in his kitchen and had a long discussion about the burglar's life choices. In the morning, he drove the burglar to a drug rehab facility. They still consider each other friends.
I have no way to confirm his story, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

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I'm also a firm believer in using diplomacy to resolve potentially violent disputes.
I've done it. It works. My handgun (& pepper spray) are plan B, & so far unused.

Revoltingest said:

I'm also a firm believer in using diplomacy to resolve potentially violent disputes.
I've done it. It works. My handgun (& pepper spray) are plan B, & so far unused.

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Aha, the truth comes out. We're not so different then - neither of us need a gun to defuse hairy situations.

Alceste said:

Yeah, I was talking about this with my hubby. We came to the conclusion that, by carrying a weapon, their perception of the world as a dark and frightening place, and of their fellow human beings as potential threats is reinforced. I think about every time I reach into my purse to feel around for my keys, everything I feel in there brings various ideas to mind. Dry hands or lips, headaches, runny noses, etc. Just imagining carrying around something like pepper spray kind of put me off. Do I want to think about being attacked every time I reach for a Kleenex? Even briefly, idly or subconsciously?

By carrying a weapon, you're reinforcing a perception of the world that it's a violent and dangerous place, which is kind of an unpleasant way to live. You have to work pretty hard to justify that, which is why proponents are so black and white about the whole thing, and seem to live in a "two choices: kill or die" paradigm.

That's just our theory. Very speculative, but it makes sense to us.

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The world is a violent and dangerous place.

Ignoring that puts you in great risk of being a victim.

CMike said:

The world is a violent and dangerous place.

Ignoring that puts you in great risk of being a victim.

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The world is only sometimes dangerous and violent. Ignoring this fact walls you off from benefit and opportunity.

CMike said:

The world is a violent and dangerous place.

Ignoring that puts you in great risk of being a victim.

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You know who else doesn't carry a gun? My cousin. She's five foot feck all, and her job is to go to places like the DRC and Darfur and work in refugee camps for outfits like the UN.

Last newsletter I got from her, she's just started a new job in some benighted corner of Africa. In get first few days, she somehow found herself sitting at a table with some of the biggest ******** on the planet - Joseph Kony calibre ******** - negotiating the release of a couple dozen captive children. These were boy soldiers and horrifically abused girls.

When negotiations were concluded, she realized she had nowhere to put all these kids. So she brought them to her house. Girls in her bedroom, boys in her living room.

No gun though. She must be living in a pampered, sheltered liberal fantasy land where she has no idea that the world can be a dangerous place. :sarcastic

The point of that story was that if my cousin can sit down with a bunch of nasty African warlords and convince them to let her take a dozen drug addled little war criminals home with her without a gun, I can most certainly pop out to a Canadian grocery store without a gun.

Alceste said:

Yeah, I was talking about this with my hubby. We came to the conclusion that, by carrying a weapon, their perception of the world as a dark and frightening place, and of their fellow human beings as potential threats is reinforced. I think about every time I reach into my purse to feel around for my keys, everything I feel in there brings various ideas to mind. Dry hands or lips, headaches, runny noses, etc. Just imagining carrying around something like pepper spray kind of put me off. Do I want to think about being attacked every time I reach for a Kleenex? Even briefly, idly or subconsciously?

By carrying a weapon, you're reinforcing a perception of the world that it's a violent and dangerous place, which is kind of an unpleasant way to live. You have to work pretty hard to justify that, which is why proponents are so black and white about the whole thing, and seem to live in a "two choices: kill or die" paradigm.

That's just our theory. Very speculative, but it makes sense to us.

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Sure when you feel those things like Kleenex or chapstick in your purse you may think "I'm definitely going to catch a cold combined with major chapped lips". However you may also think "If I catch a cold with terminal chapped lips, I will be as prepared as possible". I think I'd rather have my wife sneeze into a handy Kleenex than have to look around for a convenient sleeve.

Alceste said:

In addition to preventing both a sexual assault and a burglary by simply saying "**** off or I'll call the police", I've also been physically attacked and dropped the attacker (a woman) with a punch to the solar plexus - and that was before I took lessons.

Now you know of three successful attempts to defend oneself or others without packing a gun around everywhere.

You're welcome!

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Fascinating, but point being?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Anybody participating in this thread is not having their front door kicked down by armed intruders. If they did, they'd probably be dealing with that and not hanging out on an internet forum.

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Anyone participating in this thread is not having their car involved in a collision, either, but I wouldn't consider wearing a seat-belt to be an unreasonable precaution.

There's nothing wrong with thinking about ways to prevent a home invasion that don't end up with someone dead.

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And no one has suggested otherwise. Also, there is nothing wrong with using a skateboard to commute to work either if it works for the individual, but it would be rather asinine to insist that's it's the only acceptable form of transportation for everyone everywhere ever.

A significant number of societal failures have to have happened before a person gets to the point where they've decided to commit a home invasion and are actually breaking down that door.

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Well yeah, hence why I've noted on multiple occasions that violent crime is a psychological, sociological, economic, and cultural issue.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

On a Quaker forum I used to be on, I remember another member describing his encounter with an armed burglar in his house in the middle of the night: he went downstairs to check out the noise, found the burglar, and then calmed him down and offered him a coffee. They sat down in his kitchen and had a long discussion about the burglar's life choices. In the morning, he drove the burglar to a drug rehab facility. They still consider each other friends.

I have no way to confirm his story, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

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It's a delightful story, but do you think you could promise anyone who might attempt something similar a high chance of success?

oldbadger said:

Are you trained?

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Nope, nor do I own a firearm. But if I did I would take proper courses.

Let's say (however likely or unlikely) you are walking towards your car in a superstore car-park with some shopping bags on a quiet Tuesday morning. You have a legal concealed handgun with you. As you reach your car you hear two gun-shots about twenty yards behind you (!).... as you duck down and turn towards the sound, through the gaps of other parked vehicles you can see two males of about twenty years of age, white skinned but with heavily suntanned complexions, wearing 'hoody' training tops, jogging pants and trainers, running after and about thirty yards behind a tall white male of about 45 years, wearing a blue suit and carrying a briefcase in his left hand and a handgun in his right. This single male is running away from the two young males. As he runs you see him fire his handgun back towards the young men as he continues to run away from them, but towards the opposite side of your vehicle. As far as you can tell nobody has seen you. You now, in a fleeting glance (to your left) see that a third young white male wearing similar clothing to the first two men is kneeling down on the ground, some distance behind the others. He is clutching his side and a handgun lays beside him on the ground. A Police officer is standing by this kneeling man, holding a drawn handgun and breathing heavily. This officer points his free hand at you and is calling loudly towards you, but he is agitated and shouting so fast that you cannot determine what he is saying. In these few seconds of time you have no chance to take in any other factors.

What..... if anything....... would you like to do?

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Not a damn thing other than stay behind cover. I'm not being attacked, and no professional cop would request for a civilian to engage in a gun fight.

I'm curious as to what sort of answer you were expecting?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Frankly, I think the naive - or at least immature - view is more often held by people on the pro-gun side. They're the ones who often frame things in overly simplistic, black-and-white language of "law-abiding citizens" and "bad guys" (and never the twain shall meet)

Click to expand...

Of course there are shades of grey, but there's not much ambiguity when it comes to a group of armed men trying to kick your door in.

and think that they're somehow immune to the additional risk that having a gun in their home represents.

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That risk is diminished, if not negated, by being informed, aware, and responsible. Anyone who isn't shouldn't possess a firearm.

However, there's something else that worries me more: the literal "armed camp" mentality I see from many gun advocates. As they say, to the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I get a strong impression from many pro-gun people of an "I've got mine, screw everyone else" mindset, as if their ability to kill someone trying to take their TV means that they don't have to worry about the societal problems that could lead someone to decide that stealing TVs is his best available option in life.

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But no one has advocated killing people for taking property. It's been made clear that deadly force should only be used when people feel that their own lives are threatened. If you have a group of armed mean who've forced their way into your home, you don't just wait to see if they only want your TV. Surely you can see why that would be rather stupid gamble, yes? I would rather risk someone who only wanted to take my **** getting killed, than risk myself or my family getting killed. My own well-being, and that of my loved ones, will always precede by an extremely large margin the well-being of someone attempting to victimize me in some way.

I have my 12 gauge at home "cruiser ready" with 5 rounds loaded, nothing in the tube, and the safety off. Though I was thinking that if I take that precaution at home why don't I do it everywhere I go?

Father Heathen said:

It's a delightful story, but do you think you could promise anyone who might attempt something similar a high chance of success?

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Sure... to the same degree that you can promise someone considering using a gun for home defense that his own weapon won't end up being used against him.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Sure... to the same degree that you can promise someone considering using a gun for home defense that his own weapon won't end up being used against him.

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I think there would be less chance of my gun being used against me than successfully sweet talking an assailant.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Sure... to the same degree that you can promise someone considering using a gun for home defense that his own weapon won't end up being used against him.

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This doesn't tell us anything about the efficacy of various approaches to self defense though. In Americastan, the murder-by-gun rate is far far smaller than the rate of guns used in self defense, which points towards a net effect of guns being useful for this purpose. So far, I've seen no reasonable argument against my approach being optimum for many of us, ie, avoid trouble, diffuse conflict, & have a deadly plan B.
Can I "promise" you it always works? There are no promises in the real world...just likelihoods.