God or Gods; Changing or Unchanging?

Even though elements of these have been discussed many times over, I'd like to start a thread on just these two sets of questions and, yes, I'm leading up to something. Therefore:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

I'm gonna be outta here very shortly and be gone 'til at least Sunday, so I'll try to catch up with ya's then. Have a great weekend, all, and...

Shalom.

I find that god changes each time I discuss god with a different theist. Often, god even changes multiple times during the course of a single conversation.

Kilgore Trout said:

I find that god changes each time I discuss god with a different theist. Often, god even changes multiple times during the course of a single conversation.

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WHen discussing a being who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent that is beyond human comprehension how can it not be changing?

God has changed as the Canaanite city-states began to collapse at the end of the Late Bronze Age. God further changed as more defined Israel emerged of the previous generic Canaanite environment, possibly in the central highlands of modern Israel. God further changed after the Babylonian captivity. And changed again after the Persians defeated the Babylonians and the Second Temple was established. God further changed after the conquests of Alexander the great, and then the Romans. and that's only the two millennia before the Christianization of the Near East and the Mediterranean.

A true interesting philosophical question is... if God exists, did he change through the aeons. And which aeons are more important, the historical human ones or the geological ones?

metis said:

Even though elements of these have been discussed many times over, I'd like to start a thread on just these two sets of questions and, yes, I'm leading up to something. Therefore:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

I'm gonna be outta here very shortly and be gone 'til at least Sunday, so I'll try to catch up with ya's then. Have a great weekend, all, and...

Shalom.

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My concept of what a god should be includes unchanging, eternal, etc. The later books in the old testament are the best evidence that what is represented in the torah is incomplete. The NT is the best evidenc that the OT is incorrect as a whole. The letters of paul are the best evidence that the gospel writters are not the last word. The Koran is the best evidence that both the OT and the NT are incorrect. The protestant movement is the best evidence that catholisism is incorrect. And so on and so on.

The concept that god is perfect and unchanging is the best evidence that those who claim to know the most about god, know the least. That is because those that know the most about god today, disagree with so much of what those that knew the most about god yesterday taught.

metis said:

Even though elements of these have been discussed many times over, I'd like to start a thread on just these two sets of questions and, yes, I'm leading up to something. Therefore:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

I'm gonna be outta here very shortly and be gone 'til at least Sunday, so I'll try to catch up with ya's then. Have a great weekend, all, and...

Shalom.

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In human history, only one deity has made himself known to us in any credible way. Since most ancient cultures also began as monotheistic (as far as we can tell), I'm going with that as evidence of only one deity.

Actually, as far as we can tell, all pre-Egyptian societies were polytheistic. Here in the America's, all Amerindian societies were originally polytheistic. Same was true of all eastern Asian societies, at least as far as we can tell.

the genuine God is Conscious-Energy, it is everything. We ourselves are manfestations of the this Conscious raw energy.
Why should we deny anything,since anything can possibly happen in Energy

If there was one king deity, or a thousand "gods", or if they didn't exist at all it makes no difference, since no deity(whether real or not) can compare to the Absolute reality.
And in the case that there is no deity at all, then it still doesn't matter because am Absolute reality is not dependent on a God. Although it could be titled God, if somone felt that way.

metis said:

Even though elements of these have been discussed many times over, I'd like to start a thread on just these two sets of questions and, yes, I'm leading up to something. Therefore:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

I'm gonna be outta here very shortly and be gone 'til at least Sunday, so I'll try to catch up with ya's then. Have a great weekend, all, and...

Shalom.

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metis said:

Actually, as far as we can tell, all pre-Egyptian societies were polytheistic. Here in the America's, all Amerindian societies were originally polytheistic. Same was true of all eastern Asian societies, at least as far as we can tell.

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If you read the original creation stories, they involve something more enigmatic than polytheism.

The oldest known (copied on the Shebaka Stone) tells the story of creation by a single deity, Ptah, and all the deities created by him sound more like personifications/deifications of everyday items.

We're trained to read polytheism into these documents, and that clouds our thoughts.

metis said:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

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One God=Brahman=Everything=Us. When all is considered, this is the best understanding I can grasp. It seems a less inclusive conception would be a step backwards in my thinking evolution.

metis said:

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

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Unchanging. I can't imagine the basis of the universe changes with events (and crazier to think over human events).

Is there one god or more, or none at all?

Many. There are many, many things in this world and the otherworlds that I deem worthy of worship and that I deem sacred. All of them, really; though I do not actively worship every single aspect of reality. Such a thing is not possible, and even if it were, I would prioritize my closest relations anyway; I honor the gods I know directly or that I think are especially awesome. Like Storm Spirit. Storms are just awesome to me, so they get special status in my "pantheon."

To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

It's not about being "correct." It is about having the right and responsibility to identify what is sacred to you and celebrating it as you see fit. What you are asking is like "are you certain you really like reading comic books?" and "are you certain that you're correct to go to comic book conventions because you like comic books?" Silly questions. Or, with a certain tone, such questions could be taken quite offensively - as if you are questioning my right to have preferences or life my life as I see fit.

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time?

One should first ask: what does it mean for something to change, does change happen at all, and what are its essential qualities?

I'm going to keep this simple, because what I really have to say on this gets far too paradoxical and complicated for most people (including myself, half the time). From the perspective of a biological organism existing eternally in the "right now" yet riding the currents of time, everything changes.

To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

Operating by the simplified model above, that everything changes is well beyond any reasonable doubt. Change is a fundamental constant of reality. Anybody who doubts this should try talking and moving. Or breathing. Or thinking. All of that: change. Passage through time: change.

metis said:

Even though elements of these have been discussed many times over, I'd like to start a thread on just these two sets of questions and, yes, I'm leading up to something. Therefore:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

I'm gonna be outta here very shortly and be gone 'til at least Sunday, so I'll try to catch up with ya's then. Have a great weekend, all, and...

Shalom.

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I answered these questions already once but as I'm on caffeine I want to do it twice but from a different angle this time.

Knowing you a little by now, my gut tells me with your 'To what extent are you certain' question you are indirectly trying to show the wisdom of agnosticism.

I am content that my beliefs are at least on the right track, but I still want to make a further comment. Whether one believes in the non-dualistic Brahman, the dualistic God, multiple gods, or no gods, is not to me even the most important question. It is all still abstractions beyond us. To me the more down-to-earth questions are more important; like what happens when we die. I see two basic schools of thought; the materialist (where nothing happens) and those who believe there is something more.

I guess now I'm not sure what my point is except to express my opinion that the God question is given over-importance and I think the Pope even hinted at that lately. I guess for me the paranormal has held greater interest and importance than the God debate. Those are direct things happening to people like me and I don't think the importance of these things is given enough attention and the divisions of God beliefs are given too much attention.

George-ananda said:

I answered these questions already once but as I'm on caffeine I want to do it twice but from a different angle this time.

Knowing you a little by now, my gut tells me with your 'To what extent are you certain' question you are indirectly trying to show the wisdom of agnosticism.

I am content that my beliefs are at least on the right track, but I still want to make a further comment. Whether one believes in the non-dualistic Brahman, the dualistic God, multiple gods, or no gods, is not to me even the most important question. It is all still abstractions beyond us. To me the more down-to-earth questions are more impor I'd saytant; like what happens when we die. I see two basic schools of thought; the materialist (where nothing happens) and those who believe there is something more.

I guess now I'm not sure what my point is except to express my opinion that the God question is given over-importance and I think the Pope even hinted at that lately. I guess for me the paranormal has held greater interest and importance than the God debate. Those are direct things happening to people like me and I don't think the importance of these things is given enough attention and the divisions of God beliefs are given too much attention.

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So why does your signature line say 'Brahman Alone is Real' if that is not the most important question. Pretty inconsistent I'd say.


ps: yes this is me arguing with me.....my high-tech replacement for walking down the street mumbling to myself

Something which is capable of thought or action must be capable of change and therefore be subject to time (though not necessarily our own time).

Edit: I should justify my assertion (I had thought it would stand on its own but I recognise now that some people will find it less intuitive). In order to have a thought, the following states are necessary:
-Prior to the Event
-During the Event (if the event is instantaneous this state can be abridged)
-After the Event

That means at least two distinct states of existence with a logical progression between the two, a transition from one state to another - this is called change. Time only has meaning if there is a capacity for some state to change (otherwise there is no meaning to the concept), indeed the concept of time is a reference to the perception of capacity for changes in state.

Therefore to think (let alone act) is dependent on the capacity to change which is itself the basis of time.

George-ananda said:

One God=Brahman=Everything=Us. When all is considered, this is the best understanding I can grasp. It seems a less inclusive conception would be a step backwards in my thinking evolution.



Unchanging. I can't imagine the basis of the universe changes with events (and crazier to think over human events).

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The idea that everything is God and God is everything is very hard for people of Abrahamic religions to grasp. But I believe in that concept, because it is the only one that explains the universe as a whole. And Brahmanism is the earliest historically recorded religious belief.

metis said:

Even though elements of these have been discussed many times over, I'd like to start a thread on just these two sets of questions and, yes, I'm leading up to something. Therefore:

Is there one god or more, or none at all? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

I'm gonna be outta here very shortly and be gone 'til at least Sunday, so I'll try to catch up with ya's then. Have a great weekend, all, and...

Shalom.

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I sort of a panendeistic polytheist. It makes most sense to me based off pondering or experiences of everything else not 'theology'. I don't know if I could explain better than posts I've put in other threads on "Monotheism vs. Polytheism"

But is basically about how Source/Energy or "Dark Energy"/Possibility/Ginnungagap/Great Nebulous/Tao expresses as multiplicity and manifestations. Could say, "show me The Water"...what will people show you? An expression, manifestation.

To me its the same with Spirit or the Divine. I see it fully immanent and older, more powerful, evolved spirits/souls/minds as the Gods. Glimpses of this are throughout the world's traditions and especially esoteric teachings or types of gnosticism. Just expressed differently.

The One as an ever-changing concept for primal existence/source/energy/primal-void and sum of all there is...is impersonal Mother to Gods and all things and it all changes and evolves endlessly, eternally.

It fits with what I know and feel and correlates with accounts of "supernatural/paranormal" experience and our oldest myths attempting to show wisdom and describe difficult/ineffable concepts. No problem with science no Problem of Evil, no loopholes to dance around.

It is positive and feels good, most important as it is intuitively a sign when healthy and beneficial. Especially esoteric teachings that we may continue to rise/ascend/evolve into Gods/Immortals ourselves. Grow our soul/spirit/aware-consciousness/energy-being thingy rather than just dissolve into the Abyss.

Time to go ask some ghosts what they think

Edit: the post is full of rushed misspelled words and crap grammar but I'll leave it in the spirit of things.

Another way to express it. Gods, humans, all beings are the impersonal Universe/Absolute/Infinite screaming out "I am Alive!" Matter, energy, source becoming aware and seeing, feeling, breathing, witnessing existence. Animism and awareness in multiplicity.

What if the little ego/self is not so illusory and deceptive but an internal message from the big Ego/Self/Soul/Spirit/Energy-Being in expression...not the No-Self/Absolute/Void/Abyss.

I think we will be breathless and speechless when we understand more who and what we truly are.

metis said:

Is there one god or more, or none at all?

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My definition of a god is a particular subjective reality that influences how a person thinks, speaks, and acts. There are many gods defined not so much by name as by their nature. There are even deities of the same name that manifest in different forms in a person's psyche.

To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

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Based on that definition, 100% certain.

If you believe in a god or gods, has that god(s) changed over time? To what extent are you certain that you're correct?

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No but my conception and understanding of God has changed over the years. I'm certain of that.

Sees said:

The One as an ever-changing concept for primal existence/source/energy/primal-void and sum of all there is...is impersonal Mother to Gods and all things and it all changes and evolves endlessly, eternally.

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:yes:

Clarity said:

In human history, only one deity has made himself known to us in any credible way. Since most ancient cultures also began as monotheistic (as far as we can tell), I'm going with that as evidence of only one deity.

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Let me guess - Zeus? Dianna? The God Emperor?



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Ingledsva said:

Let me guess - Zeus? Dianna? The God Emperor?



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He's talking about Thor, of course. Didn't you hear the thunder?