The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Nazz said:

but the whole question is whether or not the law recorded in the Bible is the law that was actually given.

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He doesn't even take context into account. For example he profusely quotes Jeremiah 8:9 and adds the written law is a killer, an enslaver and not a delight, but he ignores Jeremiah 10:25 where Jeremiah himself prays "Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you!" It is total ignorance of the nature of that wrath not to study the laws to begin with. What is the wrath of the LORD but the absence of his influence? "His thoughts are not our thoughts, his ways not our ways." For him to make war means peace comes to earth. These things come directly from the laws as written in the Pentateuch. Anything Jesus says can be drawn from there together with Psalms. Any principle that Jesus talks about is already in the Pentateuch. Even his new commandment is nothing new.

Brickjectivity said:

He doesn't even take context into account. For example he profusely quotes Jeremiah 8:9 and adds the written law is a killer, an enslaver and not a delight, but he ignores Jeremiah 10:25 where Jeremiah himself prays "Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you!" It is total ignorance of the nature of that wrath not to study the laws to begin with. What is the wrath of the LORD but the absence of his influence? "His thoughts are not our thoughts, his ways not our ways." For him to make war means peace comes to earth. These things come directly from the laws as written in the Pentateuch. Anything Jesus says can be drawn from there together with Psalms. Any principle that Jesus talks about is already in the Pentateuch. Even his new commandment is nothing new.

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I think we've discussed this before and don't see eye to eye.

nazz said:

I think we've discussed this before and don't see eye to eye.

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Yeah perhaps I'm a record on skip.

Sleeppy said:

Sure. Reread it, word by word. You'll do fine.

Start with the first question. Then answer your own.

1) Does your God repent of evil, as Moses reports?

2) What does "repent of evil" mean?

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No G-d does not "repent of evil". He is unchanging. However Scriptures speaks to us according to how we subjectively view the events around us. However G-d's thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8). G-d doesn't regret or have any feelings because that would imply that G-d is compounded of various things (eg. feelings) when really G-d is One and unchanging.

When we see G-d create the creations and then when they go against His Will, He destroys it, it seems to us as though G-d has regretted creating His creation. However, G-d is omniscient and knew that that day of destruction would come before He had even created the world.

However, it is a big leap from there to say that G-d would reneg on His promise. G-d is Truth. Any deviation from His Word is a lie. With all thew threats of punishment towards the end of Deuteronomy, G-d never renegs on the original promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Israel that they would be His nation. There is no verse in Scriptures where G-d says that He will choose another nation to take the place of Israel. Because that would contradict G-d's original promise.

Pegg said:

The Hebrew scriptures are very important to christians and should not be neglected. they lead us to Christ and teach us a great deal about how God feels about us, about our mistakes, about our misdeeds....and they also teach us that its all these things which lead us to death.

Jesus teaches us the way out of death. Were it not for the mosaic law, we wouldnt even know why Jesus was necessary. So we should be thankful for both.

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We should be grateful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who brings us the true Law of God, Law that abolished many Old Testament commandments (commandments of death sentences, of slavery and sacrifices).

The Law was given by God from the beginning. But the scribes changed the Law with many precepts of men. The prophets tell us so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

Porque77 said:

We should be grateful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who brings us the true Law of God, Law that abolished many Old Testament commandments (commandments of death sentences, of slavery and sacrifices).

The Law was given by God from the beginning. But the scribes changed the Law with many precepts of men. The prophets tell us so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

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Jesus Christ abolished the laws of slavery, wars and death sentences of the Old Testament.

All these laws that have no mercy or forgiveness, are not pleasing to Jesus Christ, because they are not true Law of God.

Jesus Christ revealed us in the Gospel that the true Law that God gave to Moses is:

"all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". (Matthew 7:12)

As you see, Jesus tells us that this is the law and the prophets. So we should not doubt, this is the Law and the Prophets.

Porque77 said:

Jesus Christ abolished the laws of slavery, wars and death sentences of the Old Testament.

All these laws that have no mercy or forgiveness, are not pleasing to Jesus Christ, because they are not true Law of God.

Jesus Christ revealed us in the Gospel that the true Law that God gave to Moses is:

"all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". (Matthew 7:12)

As you see, Jesus tells us that this is the law and the prophets. So we should not doubt, this is the Law and the Prophets.

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They also tinkered with the Gospel writings so how do we know who said what?

Sees said:

They also tinkered with the Gospel writings so how do we know who said what?

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I don't think anyone purposely tinkered with anything, Had they done so they would have produced gospels that actually got their story straight.

We may not have any verbatim words of Jesus. Certainly not all of them can be. What we have our recreations from oral traditions. But scholars use various means to ascertain what may be authentic to Jesus himself.

nazz said:

I don't think anyone purposely tinkered with anything, Had they done so they would have produced gospels that actually got their story straight.

We may not have any verbatim words of Jesus. Certainly not all of them can be. What we have our recreations from oral traditions. But scholars use various means to ascertain what may be authentic to Jesus himself.

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Right...the odd thing though is constant attempts to prove what must be believed, or what is or will be, based on something uncertain in accuracy or origin.

Porque77 said:

Jesus Christ is God made man, and his Law is the only true law of God. The precepts of Jesus Christ abolished the death penalty, slavery and sacrifices of the Old Testament.

The mercy and forgiveness is what God wants, and is the Law of the Gospel. You (many who call yourselves Jews), ye have not yet received the Gospel. So you do not know that the true commandments of God are what Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel.

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During the Second World War there were several assassination attempts on Hitler’s life. All of them failed. Do you think Jesus would approve or disapprove of these attempts? Please explain in detail.



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When it comes to the scriptural accounts, we need to remember several things. One is that we are reading someone else's account of what may have happened, and in so many cases these were people who actually didn't see what had supposedly happened.

Secondly, any scripture tends to be more subjective than objective, especially since historical objectivity wasn't really the purpose of the writings to begin with as these normally were attempts to sell the faith.

Thirdly, certain figures can well be glorified well beyond what they actually were like. For example, after Gandhi was assassinated, many Hindus began to see him as Brahman (God), but fortunately Gandhi said many times that he wasn't. IMO, we see Jesus probably being deified for much the same reason.

Fourth, translating can be a problem whether that be accidental or intentional, and let me use as an example the "virgin" birth of Jesus, whereas the actually word was not that but "young maiden".

Fifth, we have to remember that religious concepts don't remain static, but often spread from one society to another. Both the creation and flood narratives appear to have been Babylonian, written long before being adopted by us, but altered to fit our morals and values.

The approach I feel most comfortable with is to read the narratives and pick out the teachings, worrying less about whether these narratives are historically correct, and then using what seems to be useful in terms of the morals and values.

roger1440 said:

During the Second World War there were several assassination attempts on Hitler’s life. All of them failed. Do you think Jesus would approve or disapprove of these attempts? Please explain in detail.

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They did not read the Gospel.

Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace. He said:

"Blessed are the peacemakers".

Porque77 said:

They did not read the Gospel.

Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace. He said:

"Blessed are the peacemakers".

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Maybe the read the other one that says "I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword".

MATTHEW 23 [1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, THE SCRIBES AND THE PHARISEES SIT IN MOSES' SEAT: [3] ALL THEREFORE WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. [5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

I don't believe us Christians would be told to observe and do what the scribes and Pharisees say if it they were lying to us or if they changed Gods law.

What makes this an even worse puzzle is we don't really know what Jesus said. As many of you know, the gospels were written 35 to 70 years after Jesus was executed. They were written by Creeks who had not been eyewitnesses to a single event. Added to that is the Anti-Semitic tone of the gospels. Apparently, someone other than the Romans had to be blamed. Based on the questionable nature of the gospels, I vote for the Jewish laws being closer to God's laws.

I think what really happened was God came into the world as Jesus, then after giving testimony (Rev. 11 about the two witnesses) was executed by Roman soldiers. Jews had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. So why did the Gospel authors blame the Jews? Why have the Jews been blamed for so many things for hundreds of years? It is obvious, they're the world's greatest scape goats.

Porque77 said:

Dear friends, I have studied the writings of the prophets, and I found several quotes that make me think what happened to God's Law.


The writings of the prophets tell us that God's law was changed.


The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us: The God's law was changed by the scribes. The Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

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You may want to take a close look at I Chronicles, written about 250 AD.

At that time, there seem to have been copies of the Torah that (at that time) were older than Isaiah and Jeremiah. For the writer, they would only have to have been 500 years old or more.

I Chronicles two has a passage that states "now the scrolls are old", an exclamation that suggests I'm correct.

Brickjectivity said:

TSomeone once said "The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul..."(Psalm 19:7)

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The Law of God is perfect. But where is the true Law of God?

In the Old Testament laws which were abolished by Jesus Christ?

Or in the Law of the Gospel?..., where is the true Law of God?

Jesus Christ gave his life to teach the true Law of God. And this Law is the Law of the Gospel:

"all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". (Matthew 7:12)

Jesus abolished the Old Testament laws that commanded death penalty, war and slavery. This is because the true Law of God is mercy and forgiveness.

Porque77 said:

The Law of God is perfect. But where is the true Law of God?

In the Old Testament laws which were abolished by Jesus Christ?

Or in the Law of the Gospel?..., where is the true Law of God?

Jesus Christ gave his life to teach the true Law of God. And this Law is the Law of the Gospel:

"all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". (Matthew 7:12)

Jesus abolished the Old Testament laws that commanded death penalty, war and slavery. This is because the true Law of God is mercy and forgiveness.

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-Psalms 119:89, Isaiah 40:8
-Isaiah 2:3, Nehemia 8:9

Tumah said:

-Psalms 119:89, Isaiah 40:8
-Isaiah 2:3, Nehemia 8:9

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Hello Tumah. The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ is this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22


These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many commandments of the Old Testament commanded death sentences, wars and slavery. And those commandments weren't really God's Law.


The Law that God gave to Moses is the law of the Gospel. The Old Testament law is another different thing.

Porque77 said:

Hello Tumah. The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ is this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22


These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many commandments of the Old Testament commanded death sentences, wars and slavery. And those commandments weren't really God's Law.


The Law that God gave to Moses is the law of the Gospel. The Old Testament law is another different thing.

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Please feel free to provide Scriptural references to back up your incredible statements.