What if I can't be saved?

Mister_T said:

Oh I definitley agree that it works both ways. And you said yourself there are a lot of things we can't prove yet. That includes God and spirits.

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and that's your vision

Mister_T said:

But Atheists don't even consider God and spirits a possibilty. And that right there is an act of closed mindedness.

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And that is also your vision. I am an atheist and I do not think God exists, but I do consider them a possibillity. However smaller than it's nonexistance.

Mister_T said:

A lot of religious people have doubts about the exsistence of God. They consider God not being real, a possibility. BUT, they also have a lot of evidence for God that they can't ignore. And just because you personally have not experienced these things that you consider ridiculous, DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST.

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You are trully right. But if I have to follow them all on the stories, then I have to believe in both reincarnation and heaven, I have to believe that God speaks to you and that aliens have landed on this planet, with that I have to believe that you go through a tunnel of white light to heaven when you die. However, I also have to believe that is just the brains getting not enough oxygen. I'd have to believe the one God does miracles, but I also have to believe there are several gods controlling the planet.
And all of them are supposed to be true? Do you think that green little men came to earth in an area 51 and we are experimenting on them is rediculous? because we also have to believe we are the chosen people. so no little green men.

And now I have to chose wich evidence to follow. The ones that can explain me exactly what they do, how it's done and show me the stuff... Or the ones talking about "" God is love" and I can't show you and this quote says this and that quote says that...?

Mister_T said:

And if you believe that what these people are saying is ridiculous, why on earth would they try to explain something to you with that mindset.

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probably for the same reason as the people with exactly the opposite story try to tell you.. Besides, I see the world in a differnt way every weekend, does that mean the world is different in the weekends once I start telling others what i saw?

Mister_T said:

There would be no point in trying to explain something on a spritual level to you because you will just dissmiss it. It's like trying to convince a black man that he's white.

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:biglaugh: that's because he is black. of course he will refuse to be white. are you now giving examples against your own beliefs?

Anyway, I won't dismiss it. I went to church, I am searching these forums for, I had reiki sessions and all. don't tell me im not giving it all a try..

And that is also your vision. I am an atheist and I do not think God exists, but I do consider them a possibillity. However smaller than it's nonexistance.

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Anyway, I won't dismiss it. I went to church, I am searching these forums for, I had reiki sessions and all. don't tell me im not giving it all a try..

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Are you sure you're an Atheist? Sounds like you're an Agnostic.

And all of them are supposed to be true? Do you think that green little men came to earth in an area 51 and we are experimenting on them is rediculous? because we also have to believe we are the chosen people. so no little green men.

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Not at all. There is plenty of evidence for aliens. Evidence that can't be ignored. To completley disregard all of the evidence for the exsistence of other life would be intellectually dishonest.

that's because he is black. of course he will refuse to be white. are you now giving examples against your own beliefs?

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Heh. No. I was simply demonstrating the concept of how pointless it is to trying to explain spiritual experiences to somone who won't take you seriously.

Ormiston said:

What advice do the Christians have for me? I can't be saved. I can't believe. I know it with all of my heart. It is who I am. Is it my failing or Gods?

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Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Can you read?

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: Isaiah 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

I recommend you do a reading.
THE WAY TO SALVATION

ashai said:

Ushta Ormiston

You won't be punished. God is not into the business of creating creatures to torture them An invisible God that cannot be proven would not make belief in himself a requirement of his creation Specially he would not make a hell and torture ( in some way) his creatures for eternity, the more so if he were all powerful.

The whole interpretation is flawed. Sincerely, I don't know if there is a credible re-interpretation out there. I was , some 28 years ago; in a similar situation to yours. Thankfully I came to realize that it is the Theology that is non-sensical not God, indeed once you find a theology that makes sense, you will have no problem with religion at all.:bounce

Ushta Te
Ashai

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The theology is nonsensical. a loving God wouldn't permit the beloved to spend eternity apart from God. The common theology says that salvation is rewards-based. i don't think that's true. Salvation is the only action a God who is love can take. And that's what God did.

But, besides that, separation from God for an eternity, is a cruel condemnation to a spiritless eternal existence. Why must an all powerful god do this? I do not find the usual Christian defenses of this credible. Moreover, it will be a failure for God to loose his beloved creatures forever.

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I don't think you see what I'm getting at. People who are sent to Hell WANT to be there. They want to be separated from him forever. They don't want anything to do with him. What's he supposed to do with people who don't want to hang out with him? Imagine being stuck in a room 24/7 for 30 days with someone whom you absolutley despised. He's the shining star of the room and he gets everyones attention. And you HATE him. Now imagine spending eternity in that room. If you don't want to be there then do you think that God is going to force you to stay? No. Of course not. He honors that persons choice.

Mister_T said:

I don't think you see what I'm getting at. People who are sent to Hell WANT to be there. They want to be separated from him forever. They don't want anything to do with him. What's he supposed to do with people who don't want to hang out with him? Imagine being stuck in a room 24/7 for 30 days with someone whom you absolutley despised. He's the shining star of the room and he gets everyones attention. And you HATE him. Now imagine spending eternity in that room. If you don't want to be there then do you think that God is going to force you to stay? No. Of course not. He honors that persons choice.

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But self-aggrandizement is false. God is the center of the universe. Don't you think that, when these people are faced with that ultimate, in-your-face truth that they cannot ignore, that they will, in that moment, find the salvation that is theirs, and repent?

sojourner said:

But self-aggrandizement is false. God is the center of the universe. Don't you think that, when these people are faced with that ultimate, in-your-face truth that they cannot ignore, that they will, in that moment, find the salvation that is theirs, and repent?

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Oh absolutley! I believe that God judges what's in your heart rather then what you think. I believe If somebody has a good heart and they experience that that ultimate, in-your-face-truth, that they will be overwhelmed by God's goodness. They'll find that God and Heaven is everything they expected and a hundred times more. It's all about heart. You can abide by every rule, memorize the entire Bible, travel to all ends of the earth to preach the word of God, and abstain from from everything this world has to offer, and if you don't have a good intentions or a good heart, then your religion is dead. God wants to have fellowship with you. That's why you're here. Why wait to get to those pearly gates to experience Heaven when you have an oppurtunity to get a taste (although reletively small compared to the real deal) right now. And I think that out of all "religions" Christianity, although flawed, comes the closest to this truth makes the most sense. But you have to look passed the circus that is organized religion, and start using reason and common sense. God refers to the people of this world as his spouse many times in the Bible and I think that's how you should treat it. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you treat your spouse and how would you want your spouse to treat you? Once you apply the relationship concept to God it cuts out all of the B.S. that is being fed to us. He doesn't want you to kiss his butt just so you can get into Heaven.

Which brings me back to the concept of Hell. If people STILL hate God after they are up in Heaven and experienced his love, then He honors their decision and sends them to Hell. When they get there they realize that Hell SUCKS compared to Heaven. And then they want to go back. But the reason they want to go back is only because they want all of the things that Heaven offers. NOT because they want to be with God. If God were to let them back into Heaven they would STILL HATE God. People (religious people are also included in this) want the things that God offers. Not God or his love. And it doesn't matter what you do, how you act, or what you think. What matters is what's in your heart.

enton said:

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Can you read?

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: Isaiah 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

I recommend you do a reading.
THE WAY TO SALVATION

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I find this all very condenscending. Maybe that's part of the problem. I say to Christians "In all humbleness, I don't have ANY of the answers." and the Christian responds "I do!" and follows it up with a bunch of scripture and regurgitated rhetoric. I'd actually prefer to be spoken to rather than preached at.

Mister_T said:

Oh absolutley! I believe that God judges what's in your heart rather then what you think. I believe If somebody has a good heart and they experience that that ultimate, in-your-face-truth, that they will be overwhelmed by God's goodness. They'll find that God and Heaven is everything they expected and a hundred times more. It's all about heart. You can abide by every rule, memorize the entire Bible, travel to all ends of the earth to preach the word of God, and abstain from from everything this world has to offer, and if you don't have a good intentions or a good heart, then your religion is dead. God wants to have fellowship with you. That's why you're here. Why wait to get to those pearly gates to experience Heaven when you have an oppurtunity to get a taste (although reletively small compared to the real deal) right now. He doesn't want you to kiss his butt just so you can get into Heaven.

Which brings me back to the concept of Hell. If people STILL hate God after they are up in Heaven and experienced his love, then He honors their decision and sends them to Hell. When they get there they realize that Hell SUCKS compared to Heaven. And then they want to go back. But the reason they want to go back is only because they want all of the things that Heaven offers. NOT because they want to be with God. If God were to let them back into Heaven they would STILL HATE God. People (religious people are also included in this) want the things that God offers. Not God or his love. And it doesn't matter what you do, how you act, or what you think. What matters is what's in your heart.

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That seems to work on the surface..but consider this:
If God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and if we agree that we all have our beginning in God...how is it possible that we shall not, in the end, have our end in God, too?

If some choose to be separated from God, how does that work? If God is the end, will not ultimate separation from God create a new end, with the separated one as the object of that end? Wouldn't that supplant God as the end, with the individual as the end?

If God, expressed in Alpha and Omega is the center of the universe, from whom all things come, and to whom all things shall return, how is it possible that any finite human will be able to break out of that paradigm? Surely the ulimate end in God is as compelling as the ultimate beginning in God?

sojourner said:

That seems to work on the surface..but consider this:
If God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and if we agree that we all have our beginning in God...how is it possible that we shall not, in the end, have our end in God, too?

If some choose to be separated from God, how does that work? If God is the end, will not ultimate separation from God create a new end, with the separated one as the object of that end? Wouldn't that supplant God as the end, with the individual as the end?

If God, expressed in Alpha and Omega is the center of the universe, from whom all things come, and to whom all things shall return, how is it possible that any finite human will be able to break out of that paradigm? Surely the ulimate end in God is as compelling as the ultimate beginning in God?

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Re-read my edit and see if that makes anymore sense. Then I'll answer your question if you still have it.

Mister_T said:

Re-read my edit and see if that makes anymore sense. Then I'll answer your question if you still have it.

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I don't know what you mean by this. I just think that hell isn't even an issue here. If God is the end, guess where we'll all be going? I think that, faced with pure love, we will only be able to return that love. Hate will not have a place in the equation any more.

Mister_T said:

Oh I definitley agree that it works both ways. And you said yourself there are a lot of things we can't prove yet. That includes God and spirits. But Atheists don't even consider God and spirits a possibilty. And that right there is an act of closed mindedness. A lot of religious people have doubts about the exsistence of God. They consider God not being real, a possibility. BUT, they also have a lot of evidence for God that they can't ignore. And just because you personally have not experienced these things that you consider ridiculous, DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST. And if you believe that what these people are saying is ridiculous, why on earth would they try to explain something to you with that mindset. Like lunamoth said "If you start with a base assumption that there is nothing more that what we can observe and measure objectively, right there you've ruled out Something More." There would be no point in trying to explain something on a spritual level to you because you will just dissmiss it. It's like trying to convince a black man that he's white.

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The highlighted section above is absurd. I, like every Athiest I have EVER talked to have long and hard considered the existence of God/gods/spirits, etc. . . . as a possibility. Without considering their existence as a possiblility, how would one ever come to the conclusion that they don't exist?

It was after realizing the rediculousness (if that is a word) of a great deal of what I was being taught on Sundays, and realizing that I could not be both a Christian, and intellectually honest, that I began a search into theology with the express purpose of finding a way that I could be honest with myself and still believe in God. As a result of literally years, and now over a decade of research into history and theology, I have come to the stark strong conclusion that there is not one single reason to believe that the God of the Bible, Torah & Quran is any more likely to exist than Ra, Zeuss or Athena, all of which we can all agree do not exist.

There is precisely the same amount of evidence for the existence of a Judeo-Christian-Muslim God as there is for Wood Nymphs, and Flying Spaghetti Monsters. You wanna give me feelings? I feel God's spirit moving within me, or some other such "evidence?" Fine, but don't be surprised if I am not impressed. I have talked to schizophrenics who were firmly convinced that the government was monitoring their thoughts through the light bulbs in their house. Do you know how they knew this? They had that same "feeling" that all believers have. Anyone want to accept this as "evidence" that the CIA is monitoring those folks' brain waves?

Now I must agree with you, that merely because there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God, that doesn't mean He does not exist. However, there is also no evidence for the existence of unicorns and dragons, so do we now accept the existence of anything and everything that anyone ever dreams up? And if the God of the Bible/Torah/Q'uran exists based on this level of acceptable evidence, then does not Ba'al, Ra, Zeuss, Athena, Appollo, The Great Spirit, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, and any and all other gods ever dreamed up, also exist?

B.

sojourner said:

I don't know what you mean by this. I just think that hell isn't even an issue here. If God is the end, guess where we'll all be going? I think that, faced with pure love, we will only be able to return that love. Hate will not have a place in the equation any more.

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What I mean is that the sole reason we exist is to have a relationship with God. A realtionship with God is just like a relationship with you spouse or a friend. If my spouse hates me, I'm not going to force her to be with me. I'm not going to make her love me. That would not be loving and that goes against free will. That would be selfish and I would just be satisfying my need. If she told me that she would never love me again, I would honor her choice and I would seperate myself from her as much as it hurts me. If we were all going to Heaven then we wouldn't need Hell. Are you suggesting that Hell doesn't exist?

like every Athiest I have EVER talked to have long and hard considered the existence of God/gods/spirits, etc. . . . as a possibility. Without considering their existence as a possiblility, how would one ever come to the conclusion that they don't exist?

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Then that person is a Skeptic or an Agnostic. Not an Atheist. An Atheist has no doubt and 100% assurance that these things simply do not exist.

Now I must agree with you, that merely because there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God, that doesn't mean He does not exist. However, there is also no evidence for the existence of unicorns and dragons, so do we now accept the existence of anything and everything that anyone ever dreams up? And if the God of the Bible/Torah/Q'uran exists based on this level of acceptable evidence, then does not Ba'al, Ra, Zeuss, Athena, Appollo, The Great Spirit, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, and any and all other gods ever dreamed up, also exist?

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There is plenty of evidence for God, Intelligent Designer, whatever you want to call it.

^ i agree, there is plenty of evidence for god. lets look at the big bang for example, i believe in it, the qur'an does talk about the big bang is some of its verses, and it explains how the universe is still expanding, however one day it will stop. Now any discusson about the big bang would be incomplete without asking, what about god? creation was a supernatural event, hence it took place outside of the natural realm, so is there anything else that exists out of the natural realm? in my opinion yes! the master architect is god! how can you say that there is no evidence for god? the universe had a beginning, and it will have an end, one day the universe will run out of fuel, and the dark era will begin, where there will be nothing, time nor space. hence we can say that the universe was created for a purpose, biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes, and the odds are astronomical! in fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved through unintelligent processes! who gave you your conscience? your instincts? how do you explain for that small unit that is now our universe? how did it get there? can you explain for that single moment of creation? we are complex beyond our imaginations! we bear his fingerprints and those fingerprints point towards his existence. we keep on looking at the flaws and the mess that this world is in, however it is pointed out that this life is a test! almost every religious text says that! we are not to test god, god is to test us! and its not that easy to pass this test, just look at how many people have lost their faith! we look at this mess, and say how can there be god? god is not going to come to you, you will have to find him yourself. i can keep on going on and on, just giving you proof! what about miraculous phenomenon? are people just lying when they talk about spirits or answered prayers? how would you explain for that?

Mister_T said:

What I mean is that the sole reason we exist is to have a relationship with God. A realtionship with God is just like a relationship with you spouse or a friend. If my spouse hates me, I'm not going to force her to be with me. I'm not going to make her love me. That would not be loving and that goes against free will. That would be selfish and I would just be satisfying my need. If she told me that she would never love me again, I would honor her choice and I would seperate myself from her as much as it hurts me. If we were all going to Heaven then we wouldn't need Hell. Are you suggesting that Hell doesn't exist?

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Yes. God's love makes hell obsolete. My question to you is this: Is your love so apparent, so real, so genuine, so compelling, so all-encompassing that it could overshadow your wife's hatred? I'm saying that's what God's love does -- completely eclipses our hate and self-absorbtion.

sojourner said:

Yes. God's love makes hell obsolete. My question to you is this: Is your love so apparent, so real, so genuine, so compelling, so all-encompassing that it could overshadow your wife's hatred? I'm saying that's what God's love does -- completely eclipses our hate and self-absorbtion.

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Of course my love can't be as you described because I am a human. I'm not perfect. God is. And if there is no Hell how do you explain Satan and all of the Biblical references to him and Hell? There is just as much eveidence for Satan and Hell as there is for God.

I am saved because I know who I am. God created me in His image therefore He gave me all that He is. He saved me from myself- my thoughts, my ideas of how life should be, my ways, my answers. my,my,my.... I have nothing that you don't have. On the day of pentecost He poured out His spirit upon all flesh-no one excluded. Jesus came to make all this come to pass and He finished the work that He started. Therefore we are a finished product of God. We just haven't come to the knowledge and understanding of who we are. As He reveals Himself within us we are saved from ourselves. This world is of no threat spiritually. There is nothing that man can do to keep us from fulfilling our purpose in God.

Mister_T said:

Of course my love can't be as you described because I am a human. I'm not perfect. God is. And if there is no Hell how do you explain Satan and all of the Biblical references to him and Hell? There is just as much eveidence for Satan and Hell as there is for God.

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Remember, Hell doesn't appear in the OT. Hell is a hellenistic idea. And maybe Satan is a literary construct. Every good story needs a pariah...
In dualist thinking, you need evil to balance good. You need hell to balance heaven. The Hebrews didn't need hell, or Satan, because the Hebrews weren't dualistic.

sojourner said:

The theology is nonsensical. a loving God wouldn't permit the beloved to spend eternity apart from God. The common theology says that salvation is rewards-based. i don't think that's true. Salvation is the only action a God who is love can take. And that's what God did.

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Ushta Sojourner

The question, again , is saved from what? If its from error , not only where we created capable and prone to err but there are more constructive ways to deal with error than torment.

If it is from punishment , who set up puninishment? If it is from Hell who made hell? See the theology is flawed and specially so when it posits God as love who then condemns his beloved to torture for eternity

Ushta Te
Ashai