1 Corinthians 15:33 is about the association between word and understanding. It is NOT about people.
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Isaiah 24:21 ???
- Thread starter Ares
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1 Corinthians 15:33 is about the association between word and understanding. It is NOT about people.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
This former prostitute then became the wife of Salmon and the mother of Boaz in the royal ancestry of the Davidic kings; she is one of the four women named in Matthews genealogy of Jesus. (Ru 4:20-22; Mt 1:5,*6)
that psalm is about the enemies of the isrealites gaining the victory over them...its not about God killing them.
sorry, she became the wife of Salmon and the mother of Boaz in the royal ancestry of the Davidic kings; she is one of the four women named in Matthews genealogy of Jesus. Matt 1:5,*6
So here is a former prostitute who God greatly blessed. :yes:
ok good, so you know that it can mean to love less or to detest and the context would imply which meaning to use.
God hates, as in detests, immoral acts. Do you really believe that he causes us to commit the very things he detests???
The scriptures dont testify that he can make us do morally wrong things:
Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly! Job 34:10
You are too pure in eyes to see what is bad; and to look on trouble [with approval] you are not able. Hab. 1:13
Psalm 5:4 For you are not a God taking delight in wickedness; No one bad may reside for any time with you.
Isaiah 59:2 No, but the very errors of YOU people have become the things causing division between YOU and YOUR God, and YOUR own sins have caused the concealing of [his] face from YOU to keep from hearing.
1 Peter 1:15 but, in accord with the Holy One who called YOU, do YOU also become holy yourselves in all [YOUR] conduct
I only encourage you to deeply consider and meditate on these scriptures...the predestination theory cannot be true, God will not cause anyone to do wrong EVER. He wants us to live, not die...sin brings forth death and once we are dead, we cannot learn anything anymore.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. Not sure how this response is relevant to the question I asked about your reply stating: God's intention was not to have Abraham kill Isaac. I'll ask it again: Is that in the scriptures or an assumption based on indoctrination?
2. This may come as a surprise but the evidence suggests the woman named in Matthew's genealogy is not Rahab the harlot, from the book of Joshua, and neither is Ruth a racial Moabite, but an Israelite! These two youtube videos will prove it from the scriptures: (I am not nor have I ever been affiliated with this organization or the presenter in any way)
[youtube]FkWf9l1q_ZE[/youtube]
Who Was Rahab The Harlot? - YouTube
[youtube]FodQ-iPyl5I[/youtube]
Ruth The Israelite (Full Breakdown) - YouTube
3. The first three verses refer to God's dealing with Israel's past enemies. The pronouns transition from the third person (them, their) to the first person (we, us) after verse 4 irrefutably indicating the rest of the psalm is about Israel! So could you please explain why God butchered innocent Israelites?
4. You're sidetracking, Pegg. The immediate and broad context of Rom 9:13, which I posted and you conveniently left out of your reply, clearly indicate God hated [detested]--not loved less---Esau.
5. It is not God Himself that performs these acts (Jas 1:13). He uses his old reliable "tool" satan (Mat 4:1). God just creates the circumstances (ie hardening hearts) to make satan's job much easier.
6. Not exclusively and directly. But through an unusual collaboration with his servant--the devil.
7. He doesn't take delight in it no more than a father would take delight in seeing his children suffer. But, through satan, the scriptural evidence indicates, He allows it to occur.
8. Once again, as I've repeatedly said and have proven from scripture and your preconception refuses to acknowledge, there are times when God gives His people a choice to do good or evil. There are other times when He does not. He removes their free will and allows satan to move in and do what he does best. May Jehovah have mercy on you for questioning His sovereignty.
9. How could we become holy like God when His holiness allows Him to take a life whereas our holiness does not? This actually corroborates my argument--God saying do as I say, not as I do. Which is not a bad thing, as long as it's coming from Him.
10. God encourages us to study and meditate on "all" the scriptures in a topic. Not just the ones that fit neatly into our belief system .
11. The scriptures, especially Psa 44 say otherwise, Pegg. Seriously, give the WT magazine a break (not saying it is a bad publication) but learn to read the scriptures in their original languages. It is not easy but the reward is worth it. It will open up a whole new dimension of understanding about Jehovah's character you could not imagine. I admit, for some of us, it may be best to stay ignorant and keep Jehovah in our tight little neat and safe package of understanding.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Whoa! Not even sure how to begin to address this one....
:help:
Whoa! Not even sure how to begin to address this one....
I have been posting it for years now. No one has refuted it. Can you prove it isn't true?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Since you asked: The term for "company" is "homilia" and is defined as companionship, intercourse, communion. The same term is found in the LXX in Pro 7:21 referring to communication between a hearer and listener. Last I checked, a hearer and listener (communication) involves people.
LOL. Jesus is The Word. His followers listen. Good try! He is the way the truth and the life. To misunderstand is the opposite of truth. Isn't it?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
His followers also commune with Him---hence two-way communication is established and refutation of your theory is complete. Evil company corrupts. Thus asking Hosea to marry a prostitute is considered a sin according to His law. That is the topic of discussion of which you are attempting to derail with your bizarre and incomprehensible logic.
Right. Not going with the flow is bizarre and incomprehensible.
You said harlots are bad associations which are condemned and condeming. I said 1 Corinthians 15:33 is not about that. What else do you have?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
sorry, that was a comment on rahab.
Abraham was given a sheep to slaughter. An angel appeared and told him not to harm his child.
Is that not enough proof that God did not intend to allow him to sacrifice his son?
Besides that, the account itself says it was only a test:
Gen 22:1 Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: “Abraham!” to which he said: “Here I am!” 2*And he went on to say: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri′ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.”...11*But Jehovah’s angel began calling to him out of the heavens and saying: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!” 12*And he went on to say: “Do not put out your hand against the boy and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”
I can find youtube clips proving that Jesus never existed.... 'opinions' on the bible doent make them true.
Ask yourself why these women would even be named in the geneology? Look at the geneology and count the number of times women are named....all them of them are written about in some other account in the scriptures. These women are only named because they are 'known' by their relevant accounts. Thats the only reason they are named...its because they are significant figures in the scriptures.
But i can understand why some people would rather they not be moabites and Canaanite prostitutes.... apparently jewish blood is sacred, yet here are pagans and prostitutes are the ancestry of some of the most famous Isrealites who ever lived. Bloodlines obviously mean little to God who is not partial.
sure, when the nation turned away from true worship, God left them and they came to be overtaken by their enemies. It wasn't God who killed them...they were loosing battles in the promised land because they did not have God favor. When they were faithful and loyal to Jehovah, he protected them and they won their battles against enemies. Psalm 44 is simply a reflection of that. God allowed their enemies to kill them and this was a sign that God had left them...Ps 44 is a plea for God to come back and protect them.
you only take that view that he 'hated' with detest in the case of the unborn Esau because you believe in predestination. And that idea completely contradicts everything that God is. All badness and immorality does not come from God...it can't come from him because he is morally perfect and supremely righteous.
James 3:14*But if YOU have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in YOUR hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15*This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is [the] earthly, animal, demonic. 16*For where jealousy and contentiousness are, there disorder and every vile thing are.
17*But the wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, not making partial distinctions, not hypocritical. 18*Moreover, the fruit of righteousness has its seed sown under peaceful conditions for those who are making peace
If something is wicked or immoral, it doesnt come from God. He doesnt detest anyone...he detests the wickedness they carry out. God will take in any wrongdoer who repents...he has shown this time and time again that he forgives sinners who repent. But never does he lead a person to sin.
So why will he destroy Satan? The scriptures say that he is the enemy of all including God and that he 'taunts' Jehovah. Prov 27:11*Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
If they are working together, why will Jehovah destroy him? And how can Jehovah be taunted by the one carrying out his will??
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2*And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3*And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore ... 8*and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. ... But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10*And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
So who will do all this misleading when the devil is gone? And why will God remove Satan if Satan is doing the things asked of him???
as the ultimate authority, he has that right. We dont have the right to take a life because life does not belong to us...it belongs to Jehovah. This is a matter of our relative position... we should not be in a position of authority over the lives of others. Only God holds that position and thats why he has the supreme right to end a life if he so chooses.
I think you need to give up the predestination view because it distorts the scriptures and character of Jehovah. Its a bad theory... another lie of the devil designed to hide the true goodness of the God of the universe.
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. The LXX term for "test", used in Gen 22:1, is the same Greek term used for "tempt" in Jas 1:13 {peirazo] which states the "true God" Himself would never do. So who was the "elohim" that tempted Abraham??? And the plot thickens, Pegg.
2. If it is backed by solid biblical exegesis, it can be extremely beneficial. The WT is also an opinion of scripture, yet it seems you hinge your salvation on its opinion more so than the biblical text and its syntax.
3. Another coulda, woulda, shoulda fallacy?
4. But if Racharb in Mat 1:5 is not Rahab the Caananite harlot and Ruth was an Israelite, as scripture suggests, His Son's bloodline actually means much more than you and professing Christianity want to admit.
Psa 44:11,17-19: 11 You have butchered us like sheep and scattered us among the nations. All this has happened though we have not forgotten You.We have not violated Your covenant. 18 Our hearts have not deserted You. We have not strayed from Your path. 19 Yet You have crushed us in the jackal's desert home. You have covered us with darkness and death.
5. The Psalmist cried out they were faithful and loyal, yet Jehovah still killed them. It's time to face the truth about God's nature and sovereignty, Pegg. I know it's not what the WT teaches but scripture should override any opinion of man.
6. I take the view because the scriptures very clearly indicate it is true and not because my organization says predestination is wrong. My organization is actually anti-predestination.
7.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Does it make sense to us? Jehovah implies it will not because:
Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
8. The very reason He can get away with killing innocent Israelites in Ps 44 as well as unrighteous Canaanites in the Pentateuch, right?
9. He has also shown He can destroy the innocent (Israelites in Ps 44, Canaanite children etc)
10. There is no indication Satan will be destroyed. It states he will be tormented. And even if he was going to be destroyed, God isn't going to need him during and after the millennium.
Pro 27:11 Be wise, my child, and make my heart glad. Then I will be able to answer my critics NLT
11. Don't know how you get satan taunting God from this verse.
12. My best guess is God will no longer be hardening people's heart--hence no need for the "middle man".
13. So now you agree our holiness cannot be equal to God's holiness, when just a few posts ago you implied we should be holy like God.
14. I once thought like you and it didn't distort my view of God at all. It instilled in me a greater sense of awe, fear, and respect for Jehovah that I did not have before! My thinking was and still is, if God does not sovereignly and providentially control whatever comes to pass then how could He make statements that are predictive and expect specific results in the future?
15. Or it is a very clever ploy masterfully executed by the ultimate con-artist, under God's supervision, to keep the masses deceived about God's true sovereignty that God knows not very many, even of His current elect, would be able to handle in their physical state. And as you can see, he's doing an excellent job.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there is no plot here. James 1:13 is discussing 'trials' that befall us, ie sickness, persecution etc. He says God never brings those things upon us...but he does test our faith and obedience which is not a bad thing.
What this account does show is that God did not know if Abraham would obey him or not...and that really shows that the predestination theory is just that - a theory and not a reality.
“Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”
Do you think God would have made this statement if he knew in advance that Abraham would obey?
yes, i do because the WT stick to the views of the bible writers. And its the bible writers who offer us an honest explanation of spiritual truths. Their explanation is inspired by God and therefore can be trusted. The WT are very good at only presenting the bible view which is why they are worthy of paying attention to.
according to the scriptures they are not natural isrealites....they are proselytes.
There are many people who 'think' they are loyal and faithful to God, yet they are fooling themselves. Unfortunately for the Israelites, when they entered into the mosaic covenant, they agreed that 'every' Israelite would abide by it. The covenant stipulated that if even one Isrealite failed to abide by it, they would all be punished. When God left the nation due to the unfaithfulness of some, they suffered, not at the hands of God, but at the hands of their enemies because they lost Gods protection.
surely you dont read that account as evidence that God himself was fighting them? How could that be?? Once again, you are ascribing immoral behaviour to God himself. Remember Elihu's words to Job: Job 34:10-11 “Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly! For according to the way earthling man acts he will reward him.”
I think your view is very wrong and If you actually 'knew' God, you wouldnt have it.
You can't reconcile a God of Love, a God who is described as being the very essence of 'love' with this idea that God also brings pain and suffering to us for whatever reason he likes.
You just can't reconcile that and for that reason, i think its the wrong view.
He doesnt kill anyone in Ps 44. Why dont you read the historical information of that particular time in Israels history. The ones who wrote that Pslam were the Sons of Korah. Korah lead a rebellion against Moses while they were in the wilderness and God put Korah and his supporters to death. this was before they entered the promised land.
In the book of Joshua chapter 7, the account tells us that under Joshua's command, they were to go into Canaan as God directed... but someone in the camp had committed a sin against Jehovah and this caused them to loose his protection and blessing.
2*Then Joshua sent men out from Jer′i·cho to A′i, which is close by Beth-a′ven, to the east of Beth′el, and said to them: “Go up and spy on the land.” Accordingly the men went up and spied on A′i. 3*After that they returned to Joshua and said to him: “Let not all the people go up. Let about two thousand men or about three thousand men go up and strike A′i. Do not weary all the people with going there, for they are few.”
4*So about three thousand men of the people went up there, but they took to flight before the men of A′i. 5*And the men of A′i got to strike down about thirty-six men of them, and they went pursuing them from before the gate as far as Sheb′a·rim and continued striking them down on the descent. Consequently the heart of the people began to melt and became as water.
6*At this Joshua ripped his mantles and fell upon his face to the earth before the ark of Jehovah until the evening, he and the older men of Israel, and they kept putting dust upon their heads. 7*And Joshua went on to say: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, why did you bring this people all the way across the Jordan, just to give us into the hand of the Am′or·ites for them to destroy us? And if only we had taken it upon ourselves and continued dwelling on the other side of the Jordan! 8*Excuse me, O Jehovah, but what can I say after Israel has turned his back before his enemies? 9*And the Ca′naan·ites and all the inhabitants of the land will hear of it, and they will certainly surround us and cut our name off from the earth; and what will you do for your great name?”
10*In turn Jehovah said to Joshua: “Get up, you! Why is it that you are falling upon your face? 11*Israel has sinned, and they have also overstepped my covenant that I laid as a command upon them; and they have also taken some of the thing devoted to destruction and have also stolen and also kept it secret and have also put it among their own articles. 12*And the sons of Israel will not be able to rise up against their enemies. The back is what they will turn before their enemies, because they have become a thing devoted to destruction. I shall not prove to be with YOU again unless YOU annihilate the thing devoted to destruction out of YOUR midst. 13*Get up! Sanctify the people, and you must say, ‘Sanctify yourselves tomorrow, for this is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said: “A thing devoted to destruction is in your midst, O Israel. You will not be able to rise up against your enemies until YOU people have removed the thing devoted to destruction from YOUR midst. 14*And YOU must present yourselves in the morning, tribe by tribe, and it must occur that the tribe that Jehovah will pick will come near, family by family, and the family that Jehovah will pick will come near, household by household, and the household that Jehovah will pick will come near, able-bodied man by able-bodied man. 15*And it must occur that the one picked with the thing devoted to destruction will be burned with fire, he and all that belongs to him, because he has overstepped the covenant of Jehovah and because he has committed a disgraceful folly in Israel.”’”
God is true to his word, the covenant was binding on all of them. There was 'community responsibility', ie, every person of the community were responsible and the sin of one would bring reproach on the entire tribe.
The Sons of Korah, who did not follow their father in his rebellion against moses, were the ones who wrote this Psalm....they were faithful, yes...as were many more Israelites, yet their were some among them who were not upholding the covenant and that is why God removed his protection from the entire tribe. They had to 'all' be clean and sanctified to receive Gods protection and blessing.
Thats what Pslam 44 is about. Read the historical information, otherwise you are going to attribute something to God that you really shouldnt.
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. The patriarch Job has to be turning over in his grave right now
2. You are basically repeating what I've been asserting. It is not God Himself that brings upon persecution and sickness to our lives--but He is indirectly involved by allowing satan to do so. Job is a perfect example. Which brings us back to my original question which you ignored. The LXX term for "test", used in Gen 22:1, is the same Greek term used for "tempt" in Jas 1:13 {peirazo] which states the "true God" Himself would never do. So who was the "elohim" that tempted Abraham???
3. Not quite Pegg. That kind of language is found throughout Scripture. In Gen 3 God asked Adam, “Where are you?” (3:9). In chapter four, He asked Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” (4:9). The book of Job reveals that at the beginning of God’s first speech to Job, God asked, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (38:4). Are we to assume questions like these or the statement in Genesis 22:12 imply a lack of knowledge on God’s part? Of course not.
The meaning of the phrase, “now I know” (Genesis 22:12), therefore, “is not that God had obtained information regarding Abraham's character that He did not previously possess; but that these qualities had been made apparent, had been developed by Abraham's outward act
Similar to how God instructs man to pray and make “known” to Him our petitions for our benefit (Philippians 4:6), even though He actually already knows of our prayers and needs before they are voiced (Matthew 6:8), for our profit, the all-knowing God sometimes is spoken of in accommodative language as acquiring knowledge.
4. The only ones proven to be inspired by God are the biblical authors (2 Ti 3:16). The WT authors provide an interpretation with no proof of inspiration.
5. Where in scripture does it specifically state Ruth became a Jew as exemplified in Est 8:17? The woman in Mat 1:5 is not Rahab the harlot. Check the Greek. Totally different spelling and pronunciation with no harlot designation.
6. You are confusing what God allows with who God is. God allows His people to kill innocent Canaanite children upon His command. Does that make Him a murderer? Of course not. Elihu's statement is completely true and does not contradict the assertion that God can cause and allow evil. As we've demonstrated with scripture, God Himself does not act wickedly nor does He Himself act unjustly! But, occasionally, in accordance with His sovereign will, can prepare our hearts so satan can influence us into acting wickedly and unjustly! Other times, He allows us to make our own choice, as He did Abraham, which does not exclude Him from already knowing the outcome.
7. Really? So the man God labeled as the most upright and blameless man on earth (Job 1:8), at the time, deserved to have his business, family, and health destroyed? C'mon Pegg. I've seen you and the WT take verses out of context better than that
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
8. The problem is you are having a very difficult time proving it from scripture.
9. Think of all the killing God commanded Israel to perform, not to mention all those He killed Himself, or how about the sending of a lying spirit into Ahab's prophets, why?--to make them sin even more??? Yet He is still a God of love.. I believe we can easily discern who is the one who clearly does not understand God or His unfathomable love.
10. Been doing it for several posts now.
11. Particular time in Israels history??? Scholars can't even agree on who wrote the Psalm much less when.
12. You are jumping to conclusions, Pegg. We really don't know who wrote this Psalm. Here is Barnes Commentary:
The title of this psalm, “To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, Maschil,” is the same as the title prefixed to Psa_42:1-11, except with a slight transposition. See the notes at the title to Psa_42:1-11.This does not, however, prove that the psalm was by the same author; or that it was composed on the same occasion; or that the design and the contents of the two resemble each other; but merely that they were alike submitted, for the same purpose, to those descendants of the family of Korah who were employed in regulating the music of the sanctuary. It may be true, indeed, that the psalm was composed by one of the descendants of Korah, or one who had the charge of the music, but that is not made certain by the title. There is no way in which the authorship can be determined.
13. But for arguments sake lets say it was written by the sons of Korah, not one thing you wrote even begins to answer the burning question that has many scholars baffled. Would God kill innocent Israelites? The psalmist states He did and many scriptures support God most certainly could have.. Ask yourself this, Pegg. Can God martyr His people? And if He did, does that make Him unjust and evil? This is precisely what He did in Psa 44! Less WT more bible, Pegg...
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
1. The patriarch Job has to be turning over in his grave right now
2. You are basically repeating what I've been asserting. It is not God Himself that brings upon persecution and sickness to our lives--but He is indirectly involved by allowing satan to do so. Job is a perfect example. Which brings us back to my original question which you ignored. The LXX term for "test", used in Gen 22:1, is the same Greek term used for "tempt" in Jas 1:13 {peirazo] which states the "true God" Himself would never do. So who was the "elohim" that tempted Abraham???
well the account of Job shows that it is NOT God who causes our suffering...Satan is the one who does that.
With regard to the LXX and the word for test/trial, they can mean the same thing, or depending on the context, they can mean different things.
James is certainly speaking of disasters that befall us...they are trials/tests. But they are not given to us by God. Disaster/sickness/suffering can test our faith...but that doesnt mean that God is causing the distressing situation.
In Genesis, the situation was an actual 'test' of faith as the account specifies it as such. Abraham was not left with the pain of loosing a child, he did not suffer loss.
But James is talking about suffering trails, which can test our faith in God. He's not using the word to mean God causes the situation to make us suffer as a way of testing our faith. God simply does not do that. He allows us to go through the trials of life, but he never causes them.
once again you are taking scriptures out of context. Its amazing what the bible says when we do that.
actually i think you have that mistaken. The bible authors do provide the interpretation, the WT follow that interpretation which is why we dont teach that God punishes the wicked in eternal hellfire, or that he is a trinity, or that Jesus is God, or that the dead return to the ground and are no longer conscious, or that the soul dies, or that the spirit belongs to God, or that life can only be restored through the resurrection etc etc etc
These spiritual truths are given by the bible writers....its what they wrote.
Ruth 1:1 Now it came about in the days when the judges administered justice that a famine arose in the land, and a man proceeded to go from Beth′le·hem in Judah to reside as an alien in the fields of Mo′ab, he with his wife and his two sons. 2*And the mans name was E·lim′e·lech, and his wifes name Na′o·mi, and the names of his two sons were Mah′lon and Chil′i·on, Eph′rath·ites from Beth′le·hem in Judah. Eventually they came to the fields of Mo′ab and continued there.
3*In time E·lim′e·lech the husband of Na′o·mi died, so that she remained with her two sons. 4*Later the men took wives for themselves, Mo′ab·ite women. The name of the one was Or′pah, and the name of the other Ruth.
Ruth chose to leave her home and her family and remain with her mother-in-law and become a worshiper of Naomi's God:
Ruth 1:16*And Ruth proceeded to say: Do not plead with me to abandon you, to turn back from accompanying you; for where you go I shall go, and where you spend the night I shall spend the night. Your people will be my people, and your God my God. 17*Where you die I shall die, and there is where I shall be buried. May Jehovah do so to me and add to it if anything but death should make a separation between me and you.
The book of Ruth records the events of how she came to be married to Boaz And finally it relates:
Ruth 4:13*Accordingly Bo′az took Ruth and she became his wife and he had relations with her. So Jehovah granted her conception and she bore a son. 14*And the women began to say to Na′o·mi: Blessed be Jehovah, who has not let a repurchaser fail for you today; that his name may be proclaimed in Israel. 15*And he has become a restorer of your soul and one to nourish your old age, because your daughter-in-law who does love you, who is better to you than seven sons, has given birth to him. 16*And Na′o·mi proceeded to take the child and to put it in her bosom, and she came to be its nurse. 17*Then the neighbor ladies gave it a name, saying: A son has been born to Na′o·mi. And they began to call his name O′bed. He is the father of Jes′se, Davids father.
So the bible records the fact that a moabite woman was the grandmother of King David, son of Jesse. And thats the only reason why it was noteworthy for Mathew to mention it. Remember that that christians were teaching that God is not partial and that all mankind can be saved through Christ...they were using these examples to show that God does not have an issue with a persons heritage.
Matt 1:5*Sal′mon became father to Bo′az by Ra′hab;
Bo′az became father to O′bed by Ruth;
O′bed became father to Jes′se;
*6*Jes′se became father to David the king
Traditionally, it has always been viewed that this Rahab is the harlot from the city of jericho. She certainly fits in with the timing of the Jericho incident in this geneology. And there is the fact that Paul and James both mention Rahab 'the Harlot' as a significant example of faith for Christians to follow, ie Hebrews 11:31 & James 2:25. So Rahab was still being talked about in the first century and has had her name recorded in the bible because of her outstanding faith.
7. Really? So the man God labeled as the most upright and blameless man on earth (Job 1:8), at the time, deserved to have his business, family, and health destroyed? C'mon Pegg. I've seen you and the WT take verses out of context better than that
please dont cut and paste my comments and then tell ME i've taken something out of context
Isnt it funny how one person can read the story of Job as God causing all his distress, and another as Satan causing it.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the subsciption found on that particular psalm is that it is written by the Sons of Korah.
That puts the writing of it way back at the beginning of Isreal entering the promised land. The sons of Korah were there when their father was put to death for his rebellion against Moses according to the account in Numbers 26:10*Then the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up. As for Ko′rah, [he died] at the death of the assembly when the fire consumed two hundred and fifty men. And they came to be a symbol. 11*However, the sons of Ko′rah did not die.
we can argue with the bible, or we can allow the bible to guide our thinking. In this case, the bible says that Ps 44 is written by the Sons of Korah and i'll accept that over the views of ordinary people anyday of the week.
you should know that the hebrew language uses such terms as 'God Caused' something to happen simply by not stopping it from happening.
Look at the account about the Egyption maids who saved the Isrealite children from being killed....it actually says they 'caused them to live'
its simply a peculiarity with the language itself. God didnt kill the people in Ps 44...he had left them and that gave their enemies an opportunity to gain the upper hand and kill them. Read the account in Joshua about what happened. The writers of Psalms are imploring God to come back and save them.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1 That's right. But since scripture plainly indicates God controls who satan can or cannot tempt and to what extent, whether you want to admit it or not, this makes God ultimately responsible. And He even concurs:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Lam 3:38 Do not evil and good come from the mouth of the Most High?
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Lam 3:38 Do not evil and good come from the mouth of the Most High?
2 Does scripture indicate satan needs God's permission in order to cause a disaster or sickness?
3 Even though it doesn't specifically mention it, Job's ordeal was also a test and he did suffer loss. We had the privilege of getting a behind the scenes peek at the parties responsible for Jobs test. So we can safely assume God and satan were involved in Abrahams test.
4 You have no idea how contradictory that sounds. You admit God allows satan to test us. We both know God has control over satans actions, yet you claim God is not ultimately responsible??? I realize He is not directly involved in the evil but He does allow satan to wreak havoc, making God an accessory of the suffering.
5 Yeah, tell me about it
6 And the bible authors also wrote God can create evil. Yet the WT teaches He does not. The overwhelming evidence suggests they got that one wrong.
7 Ruth was not a racial Moabite. She was either a Reubenite or Gadite living in the plains of Moab. She left her tribe [am] and judges[elohim] to join Naomis tribe and judges. I can demonstrate how the author of Ruth (probably Samuel) had a habit of calling Israelitesnot by their tribal name-- but by the names of the lands they occupied. Ruth was labeled a Moabite because she lived in the land/fields of Moab occupied by Israel! Just as he called Elimelechs family living in Bethlehem/Judah Ephrathites (Rth 1:2) Ephrath was Bethlehems ancient name (Gen 35:19; 48:7) and the Manasites and Ephraimites living in the land of Gilead, he called Gileadites!(Jdg 12:4). So Israelites living in the fields of Moab were labled as Moabites.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. I normally do not do this but Ill make an exception for you. I challenge you to a one on one to prove from scripture Ruth was not a racial Moabitebut an Israelite living in the plains of Moab across the Jordan in Reubens or Gads territory. If you are positive you can prove from scripture Ruth was a resident of the nation of Moab, you should have no problem accepting the challenge, how about it?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
8 The evidence is circumstantial. None of this proves she was the woman in Mat 1:5. Scholars say it was “probably” Rahab the harlot, with no real explanation of why the text reflects a different name and why this is the only time in all of scripture the harlot designation was not attached.
9 Let’s see if I was really taking your statement out of context. You quoted this verse:
For according to the way earthling man acts he will reward him.”
This means according to the way a man behaves God will reward him. I refuted that with the example of Job, whom God called upright and blameless, yet it was ultimately God who made him suffer. Why do you think the model prayer tells us to constantly ask God not to "lead" us into temptation, But deliver us from evil? If we have to ask Him to deliver us "from" evil, it stands to reason He can deliver us "to" evil! Which the bible confirms!
10 God pointed out Job to satan—not the other way around--as if God had it planned all along. Satan can do nothing without God’s permission. So who was ultimately responsible for causing Job’s suffering? Use your head not your “heart”, Pegg
11 Jumping to conclusions can lead one astray.
12 The Hebrew grammar proves otherwise. We went over this a few pages ago (see point 8) http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3612424-post96.html
Psa 44:11 You have butchered us like sheep and scattered us among the nations
Psa 44:19 But You have severely broken us in the place of jackals, And covered us with the shadow of death.
Psa 44:19 But You have severely broken us in the place of jackals, And covered us with the shadow of death.
13 The Israelites had no problem blaming God for their enemies incursion and subsequent deaths. God can make anyone do anything He wants them to:
1Ch 5:26 So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, that is, Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria. He carried the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh into captivity. He took them to Halah, Habor, Hara, and the river of Gozan to this day. [/quote]
2Ch 33:11 Therefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the army of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh with hooks, bound him with bronze fetters, and carried him off to Babylon.
Isa 10:5-6 "What sorrow awaits Assyria, the rod of My anger. I use it as a club to express My anger. 6 I am sending Assyria against a godless nation, against a people with whom I am angry. Assyria will plunder them, trampling them like dirt beneath its feet.
2Ch 33:11 Therefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the army of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh with hooks, bound him with bronze fetters, and carried him off to Babylon.
Isa 10:5-6 "What sorrow awaits Assyria, the rod of My anger. I use it as a club to express My anger. 6 I am sending Assyria against a godless nation, against a people with whom I am angry. Assyria will plunder them, trampling them like dirt beneath its feet.
God is in total control which ultimately makes Him the cause of all good and evil, just as the text states. If you assume He is not "ultimately" the cause of evil, then He is not in total control.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Ruth 1:3*In time E·lim′e·lech the husband of Na′o·mi died, so that she remained with her two sons. 4*Later the men took wives for themselves, Mo′ab·ite women. The name of the one was Or′pah, and the name of the other Ruth.
compare this to:
1Kings 11:1 And King Sol′o·mon himself loved many foreign wives along with the daughter of Phar′aoh, Mo′ab·ite, Am′mon·ite, E′dom·ite, Si·do′ni·an [and] Hit′tite women, 2*from the nations of whom Jehovah had said to the sons of Israel: YOU must not go in among them,
According to both accounts, the sons took Moabite women who, according to 1Kings, are 'foreign' women.
If the ruth was an isrealite, she would not have been called a 'moabite' even if she was dwelling in the lang of Moab. Naomi was not called a Moabite and she was living in that land. The only women who were 'moabites' were 'foreign' women.....ie, non isrealites.
And If Ruth was an Isrealite, then why would she be called a 'moabite' even after returning to Judah?
Ruth 4:10*And also Ruth the Mo′ab·i·tess, the wife of Mah′lon, I do buy for myself as a wife to cause the name of the dead man to rise upon his inheritance
that wouldnt make any sense in calling her a moabite if she was an isrealite. And if you still are not sure if Ruth was a moabite, then perhaps you need to ask yourself why you dont believe what the bible says.
Yes, angels of heaven.
I would refer you to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats: "Away with you, you cursed ones, into the fires prepared for the devil and his angels."