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Who is God’s suffering servant?

roger1440

I do stuff
I don't recall there being a Paul in the Talmud but there is a Jesus the Nazarene in the Talmud. But the Talmud places him ~75 years earlier than the NT does. And with 5 Disciples not 12. And it was the Sanhedrin that stoned and hung him on Passover Eve, not the Romans who crucified him.

My theory is that there was a Jesus who managed to get some small following. A few generations or so later, someone decides to put a book out about him and culls some rumors floating around throws it together with some re-imagined Biblical stories and voila. NT.

Pain-staking historical detail is not an accurate portrayal of the Census. Or the date of death. Or the correct genealogical line. To name a few.
Opps, I thought you meant Paul.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
I don't recall there being a Paul in the Talmud but there is a Jesus the Nazarene in the Talmud. But the Talmud places him ~75 years earlier than the NT does. And with 5 Disciples not 12. And it was the Sanhedrin that stoned and hung him on Passover Eve, not the Romans who crucified him.

My theory is that there was a Jesus who managed to get some small following. A few generations or so later, someone decides to put a book out about him and culls some rumors floating around throws it together with some re-imagined Biblical stories and voila. NT.

Pain-staking historical detail is not an accurate portrayal of the Census. Or the date of death. Or the correct genealogical line. To name a few.
I’m familiar with the passage you are referring too. I have come across it a few times over the years. It raises more questions than it answers.

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu34 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!35 — Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence.”
“ Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah.”
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43
Is it authentic?
When was it written?
Why is it in the Talmud?
What was the evidence used to convict this Jesus?
Is this Jesus mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?
Is this Jesus mentioned anywhere else in Jewish writings?
How common was it to be convicted of sorcery during this time period?
Is his disciples mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?


You might find this interesting.
Jesus of Nazareth’s Trial in Sanhedrin 43a
Summary:
The Munich Talmud manuscript of at b.San.43a preserves passages censored out of printed editions, including the controversial trial of “Yeshu Notzeri”.Chronological analysis of the layers in this tradition suggests that the oldest words are: “On the eve of Passover they hung Jesus of Nazareth for sorcery and leading Israel astray”. This paper argues that other words were added to this tradition in order to overcome three difficulties: a trial date during a festival; the unbiblical method of execution; and the charge of "sorcery" which implies that Jesus’ miracles were genuine because illusions were not punishable by death.
The origin of Censorship:
Tyndale House (where I work) recently acquired one of the 400 facsimiles of the Munich Talmud in a hotly contested New York auction. This is the earliest full manuscript Talmud, penned in approximately 1342. Very few manuscripts of the Talmud survived the ravages of time and persecutions, and they are particularly important because they contain material censored out of the printed editions, most of which concerned Jesus.
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Sanhedrin 43a censored.pdf
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I’m familiar with the passage you are referring too. I have come across it a few times over the years. It raises more questions than it answers.

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu34 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!35 — Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence.”
“ Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah.”
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43
Is it authentic?
When was it written?
Why is it in the Talmud?
What was the evidence used to convict this Jesus?
Is this Jesus mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?
Is this Jesus mentioned anywhere else in Jewish writings?
How common was it to be convicted of sorcery during this time period?
Is his disciples mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?


You might find this interesting.
Jesus of Nazareth’s Trial in Sanhedrin 43a
Summary:
The Munich Talmud manuscript of at b.San.43a preserves passages censored out of printed editions, including the controversial trial of “Yeshu Notzeri”.Chronological analysis of the layers in this tradition suggests that the oldest words are: “On the eve of Passover they hung Jesus of Nazareth for sorcery and leading Israel astray”. This paper argues that other words were added to this tradition in order to overcome three difficulties: a trial date during a festival; the unbiblical method of execution; and the charge of "sorcery" which implies that Jesus’ miracles were genuine because illusions were not punishable by death.
The origin of Censorship:
Tyndale House (where I work) recently acquired one of the 400 facsimiles of the Munich Talmud in a hotly contested New York auction. This is the earliest full manuscript Talmud, penned in approximately 1342. Very few manuscripts of the Talmud survived the ravages of time and persecutions, and they are particularly important because they contain material censored out of the printed editions, most of which concerned Jesus.
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Sanhedrin 43a censored.pdf

A very interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with all the questions that he has on the passages cited nor his explanations. But still very insightful. Thanks for the info.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I’m familiar with the passage you are referring too. I have come across it a few times over the years. It raises more questions than it answers.

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu34 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!35 — Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence.”
“ Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah.”
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43
Is it authentic?
When was it written?
Why is it in the Talmud?
What was the evidence used to convict this Jesus?
Is this Jesus mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?
Is this Jesus mentioned anywhere else in Jewish writings?
How common was it to be convicted of sorcery during this time period?
Is his disciples mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?


You might find this interesting.
Jesus of Nazareth’s Trial in Sanhedrin 43a
Summary:
The Munich Talmud manuscript of at b.San.43a preserves passages censored out of printed editions, including the controversial trial of “Yeshu Notzeri”.Chronological analysis of the layers in this tradition suggests that the oldest words are: “On the eve of Passover they hung Jesus of Nazareth for sorcery and leading Israel astray”. This paper argues that other words were added to this tradition in order to overcome three difficulties: a trial date during a festival; the unbiblical method of execution; and the charge of "sorcery" which implies that Jesus’ miracles were genuine because illusions were not punishable by death.
The origin of Censorship:
Tyndale House (where I work) recently acquired one of the 400 facsimiles of the Munich Talmud in a hotly contested New York auction. This is the earliest full manuscript Talmud, penned in approximately 1342. Very few manuscripts of the Talmud survived the ravages of time and persecutions, and they are particularly important because they contain material censored out of the printed editions, most of which concerned Jesus.
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Sanhedrin 43a censored.pdf

It's nonsense.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
A very interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with all the questions that he has on the passages cited nor his explanations. But still very insightful. Thanks for the info.
The questions "Is it authentic? When was it written? Why is it in the Talmud?" and so on, are mine.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The questions "Is it authentic? When was it written? Why is it in the Talmud?" and so on, are mine.

Oh I thought you were asking these questions rhetorically and then offering the article as an answer since it does deal with these questions.

When was it written?
The Talmud was redacted ~500 CE. So figure around that time. Obviously, I believe that the contents of the Talmud are based on traditions that preceded it., including this passage. The author of that article also concludes that it may have been an authentic tradition.

Why is it in the Talmud?

The Mishnah says that before a conviction they make an announcement to see if anyone knows anything that can help the defendant. This passage was brought as an illustration of that.

What was the evidence used to convict this Jesus?

The Jewish system is not exactly evidence based. You don't need to bring fingerprints. You bring witnesses (Deut. 17:6, 19:15).

Is this Jesus mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?

In 6,000 double sided pages, there's maybe three or four mentions. Maybe five. He wasn't an important topic to Babylonian Jews in 500 CE.

Is this Jesus mentioned anywhere else in Jewish writings?

Not in this manner.

How common was it to be convicted of sorcery during this time period?

I don't know about conviction. But sorcery and witchcraft are mentioned a number of times in the Talmud and other writing.

Is his disciples mentioned elsewhere in the Talmud?[/SIZE]

Not to my knowledge, but I don't claim to know the entire Talmud, its quite long. Still I think I would have heard about it. There is mention of other people using his name to perform healing though.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
I’m familiar with the passage you are referring too. I have come across it a few times over the years. It raises more questions than it answers.Is it authentic?

Your quote is about the trial of Yeshu Ben Pandera. Yeshu is a common Hebrew name which is not the Hebrew name that Christians use for their deity. The name 'Yeshu' appears in the Babylonian Talmud nine times. Pandera lived about 80 years BCE and was executed on the day before Passover -- not on Passover (which is forbidden). Yeshu had followers well into the first century of the common era. According to Sanhedrin 43a Pandera had a proper trial which took place long before Passover:

On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover.

Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him."

Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.


Not jesus since this was too early to fit to the Christian stories and those stories don't mention that jesus had connections to the government.

Other passages in the Talmud that Christians try to link to their deity: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html
The conclusion from this link:
It seems clear by now that there is no consensus whether Jesus is mentioned at all in the Talmud. Most of the supposed "blasphemies" of Jesus and Mary in the Talmud do not refer to them at all. However, there can be no denying, and no rabbi would deny this, that the authors of the Talmud did not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity. If you are looking for Christian fellowship then Jewish literature is not the place to look. However, there is no basis at all to state unequivocably that the Talmud calls Jesus a bas--rd or that Mary was a prostitute who had sex with many men. As has been shown, those passages definitely do not refer to Jesus.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Your quote is about the trial of Yeshu Ben Pandera. Yeshu is a common Hebrew name which is not the Hebrew name that Christians use for their deity. The name 'Yeshu' appears in the Babylonian Talmud nine times. Pandera lived about 80 years BCE and was executed on the day before Passover -- not on Passover (which is forbidden). Yeshu had followers well into the first century of the common era. According to Sanhedrin 43a Pandera had a proper trial which took place long before Passover:

My conclusion was that the Jesus of the NT was a fictional portrayal based on a historical account that took place about 75 years earlier.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Obviously jesus is a fictional character that is an amalgamation of various pagan religions that existed at the time. However, it is probable that Paul pulled some of his writen material from Jewish sources as well.
 
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roger1440

I do stuff
My conclusion was that the Jesus of the NT was a fictional portrayal based on a historical account that took place about 75 years earlier.

Well, it depends on how we want to define fictional. Allegory and metaphors may fall within the boundaries of fiction.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Obviously jesus is a fictional character that is an amalgamation of various pagan religions that existed at the time. However, it is probable that Paul pulled some of his writen material from Jewish sources as well.

There is little doubt of that. I thought there might have been a small proto-Christian sect and some old stories and he took them spiced them with some Jewish ideas and some of his own and voila. NT.

Well, it depends on how we want to define fictional. Allegory and metaphors may fall within the boundaries of fiction.

That's true.

I feel a little uncomfortable discussing my opinion on this with you because you define yourself as Christian and you're a nice guy. I don't want to offend you. It's one thing to point out an inconsistency or mis-translation its altogether another to just throw my views in your face.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
There is little doubt of that. I thought there might have been a small proto-Christian sect and some old stories and he took them spiced them with some Jewish ideas and some of his own and voila. NT.



That's true.

I feel a little uncomfortable discussing my opinion on this with you because you define yourself as Christian and you're a nice guy. I don't want to offend you. It's one thing to point out an inconsistency or mis-translation its altogether another to just throw my views in your face.

I’m not your garden variety Christian, LOL. 500 years ago I probably would have been burned at the stake for heresy. Christians have been telling Jews for nearly 2000 years Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture. On the other hand Jews have been telling Christians they have it all wrong. I’m saying both groups are wrong. Gentiles have taken the Gospels and interpreted them as literal. The problem is the Gospels are allegorical Jewish writings. Long story short, there is no 2000 year old dead Jew. Jesus is the nation of Israel. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is God’s son, but according to the book of Exodus Israel is God’s son. How can that be? Simple, they are one in the same. Jesus is the Israel that never went astray.
 
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