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Is it better to be a believer or an athiest?
- Thread starter randb
- Start date
Dayv
Member
Personally, as one who has been on both sides of the fence, I'd prefer non-belief. It's so much more open and flexible, I've never been fond of rules and being subject to 2000 year old system of morals. I like to decide for myself.
Also, if I were then wrong, and this 'god' were so cruel as to torture me for being logical and thinking for myself eventhough I was a good and kind person, I have always believed that we are all in charge of our own destiny (and no one's gonna hold me down), and I would do everything possible to topple his prejudice dictatorship, and I'm sure I wouildn't be alone (hey, they did it to Cronus).
Also, if I were then wrong, and this 'god' were so cruel as to torture me for being logical and thinking for myself eventhough I was a good and kind person, I have always believed that we are all in charge of our own destiny (and no one's gonna hold me down), and I would do everything possible to topple his prejudice dictatorship, and I'm sure I wouildn't be alone (hey, they did it to Cronus).
who gave us natural laws? how did man get this instinct to know from right or wrong? God. And through the many messengers sent down by god, we have learnt to live in a civilized society. just think about the time in arabia when there were idolators, life was a chaos, they buried girl babies alive, the status system was ridiculous, and what not, and there came a prophet names muhammad (pbuh) he addressed to the people the word of god, and it really did improve (later on the qur'anic texts weren't followed properly, paving the way to most of present middle east) people started to live in a civilized society. and ever read lord of the flies? its kind of the same thing that im trying to say here, when those kids were without rules and their elders, they grew into savages, unable to make the right choices (though we all have gut instincts, we aren't always able to follow them), therefore they needed someone to guide them, in this case it was some dude from a different country, however in real life, im trying to say that that savior was god, and i will only credit himOrmiston said:
Atheist_Dave
*Foxy Lady*
Sky. God did not give us right and wrong, because right and wrong do not exist to our whole race. Right and wrong is different for every person, and therefore god can not have created it, or we would all feel the same right? They did not grow into savages, they grew into animals, which if we peel back all our thoughts and feelings, that is what we are.
You think you know right and wrong because of god, but you dont. You know right and wrong from what you have read about this supposed all mighty creator. Yeah, the holy books have many lessons all of us could do with thinking about now and again, but without it we would still have right and wrong.
For me to eat ham is fine by me, but for a jew it is wrong. See what I mean?
Peace x
You think you know right and wrong because of god, but you dont. You know right and wrong from what you have read about this supposed all mighty creator. Yeah, the holy books have many lessons all of us could do with thinking about now and again, but without it we would still have right and wrong.
For me to eat ham is fine by me, but for a jew it is wrong. See what I mean?
Peace x
i get what you're trying to get at, yes. however what about our gut instincts? if some dude told me to rob some old woman because it was real easy, would i do it? maybe (thats how all of us vary) but my gut instinct would always tell me that its not "right" get it? we all know right from wrong, but we can't always make the right decision, and these gut instincts are natural because they are god given, and religion was sent down as a guide, to help us make these decisions, and live a good life. and there is a reason for every law and rule, for example in islam it is forbidden to have intercourse before marriage, why? you and your partner could make a mistake by having a baby, who will take care of it? will you and your partner actually decide to stick with each other? etc; and you gave an example yourself; about eating ham, we have a reason for it, we don't follow this guide for nothing!
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I see some universiality in morality. No doubt you have some that deviate, but overall there is some concensus on things like rape, killing, stealing, etc. Is there not? Yes I know you don't think it comes from God (although you also can't prove this) but I hope you can see the concensus of it.Atheist_Dave said:
Atheist_Dave
*Foxy Lady*
Some people are born with brains incappable of seeing right from wrong. Some cant even see reality from delusion... are you saying that these people who cannot see right from wrong for medical reasons are in some way less holy than healthy people then? Your statement would seem to imply that... "me, my, I" you are talking about yourself here, so really your point isnt valid atall, infact its utter nonsense. Tell me why there are many religions then please 
why are there more than one if YOUR god definetely sent it down to us. why did different religions spring up from different parts of the world?
Peace x
why are there more than one if YOUR god definetely sent it down to us. why did different religions spring up from different parts of the world? Peace x
Atheist_Dave
*Foxy Lady*
I cannot prove that there isnt a giant biscuit in the sky somewhere controlling everything I do... do you believe in it then?Victor said:
Atheist_Dave
*Foxy Lady*
I like that. Its impossible to tell for sure what we would be like without religious influence, as there are few records of human life before it was all made up. But I know this, my family has never been religious, they have never through the ages cared about the bible or God, and yet we are decent. The reason murder has become wrong maybe goes back to when we first became civilized, perhaps we realised it was a lot better for us to help each other rather than fight all the time. I could reason the others but I imagine you already have enough there to pick me apart over Theft is similar of course, by not stealing it avoids conflicts, perhaps we began to see it is not worth the fights and possiblility of death to take the risk and steal. Im coming across completely incoherent here so I'll stop....
Peace x
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
So you do see some concensus then?Atheist_Dave said:
Theft is similar of course, by not stealing it avoids conflicts, perhaps we began to see it is not worth the fights and possiblility of death to take the risk and steal. Im coming across completely incoherent here so I'll stop....
Peace x
Ormiston
Well-Known Member
There is universiality in everything. Wheels make the most sense on things that roll, spoons work better everywhere for soup than chop-sticks, not murdering is more gratifying than murdering.Victor said:
And we were originally talking about religion being responsible for morals, not God. I credit mankind for our progress, not religion. God isn't in the equation. We can't point to God but we can point to religion.
Atheist_Dave
*Foxy Lady*
ormiston, you put it much better than I did, frubals.
Peace x
Peace x
okay ormiston and dave still say that they credit man. i already responded to that earlier, however i'm going to repeat it again. i know what you're trying to say, the fact that right and wrong vary amongst individuals, however like victor said there is universality in morality, most of us do know right from wrong, and no the mentally handicapped are not "unhealtheir" than us! thats not what i was trying to say, even a mentally handicapped person knows right from wrong to a certain degree, i know one in person, and she would throw a temper tantrum whenever she is angry, and she knows that she shouldn't because its "wrong" but she still does, this is exactly my point, we all know right from wrong in some way or another, we all have gut instincts, and these instincts are man made. if she slaps someone and she sees them hurt she knows it was wrong, these are gut instincts, the ability to tell from right or wrong, which are god-given. its a hard concept to grasp, and just as hard to really put it into words, im not sure if im really getting my point across, but this ability to tell from right or wrong is god-given, we don't just have it, do you get it?
Ormiston
Well-Known Member
I don't discredit religious folks one bit! You're a religious guy and I think you're one of the greatest contributors to this website. My point is that it's all folks, religious or not, that should get the credit and not any one or the collective whole of religion. Giving thanks to God for us being here is fine with me but the "Giving thanks to God" is not what got us here.Victor said:
Ormiston
Well-Known Member
There are simple and obvious reasons why the most common morals are what they are. You can look at any one of the 10 commandments and say "Duh...of course we should/shouldn't do that" and then give perfectly sensible reasons. People tend not to kill because it would ruin their life or they are afraid of having to tend to a corpse or they are afraid of what society will do to them if they're caught. It is Natural Law that guides us in the absense of Spiritual Law. Morals do vary to some degree and different religions follow different moral standards. How do you explain this? I think people are varied and places are varied and that's how. Not, my God explained this all a long time ago and you people just don't get it.sky87 said:okay ormiston and dave still say that they credit man. i already responded to that earlier, however i'm going to repeat it again. i know what you're trying to say, the fact that right and wrong vary amongst individuals, however like victor said there is universality in morality, most of us do know right from wrong, and no the mentally handicapped are not "unhealtheir" than us! thats not what i was trying to say, even a mentally handicapped person knows right from wrong to a certain degree, i know one in person, and she would throw a temper tantrum whenever she is angry, and she knows that she shouldn't because its "wrong" but she still does, this is exactly my point, we all know right from wrong in some way or another, we all have gut instincts, and these instincts are man made. if she slaps someone and she sees them hurt she knows it was wrong, these are gut instincts, the ability to tell from right or wrong, which are god-given. its a hard concept to grasp, and just as hard to really put it into words, im not sure if im really getting my point across, but this ability to tell from right or wrong is god-given, we don't just have it, do you get it?