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Christians - the LDS christ

Aqualung

Tasty
What's wrong with the LDS christ? A_E keeps insisting that LDS and christians follow a different christ. Is this true? If so, which is following the "wrong" christ?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Aqualung said:
What's wrong with the LDS christ? A_E keeps insisting that LDS and christians follow a different christ. Is this true? If so, which is following the "wrong" christ?
It depends on how you view history. We have a mutually exclusive definition of who Jesus Christ is. We know historically that the apostles of Jesus heard him teach, founded churches, and ordained bishops to continue their teachings. These disciples preserved the writings that eventually became the New Testament and formulated the creeds, defining who Jesus Christ and God of the NT are because there were multiple definitions, none of which meet LDS criterea.

1800 years later, Mr. Smith and his followers completely redefined all of theological definitions in the NT, creating a different religion. We can choose the new or stay with the old, but no one can deny that the definitions are drastically different.

IMHO, the one historically closer is more likely to be "correct," but you can believe whatever makes you warm and fuzzy (like me).
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
AL, a lot of people believe that the LDS Church does not follow the same Christ because of our belief in 3 seperate distincts persons in the Godhead. Although, this does not make much sense to be, because this 3-in-1, 1-in-3 was later voted on a several councils by several people. Many Christians in the early Church did not believe this.

I say, tell them what we believe, that we worship the same Christ as them, we just don't believe He is all one person. We believe He is a seperate distinct being and let them choose, their loss anyways.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
It depends on how you view history. We have a mutually exclusive definition of who Jesus Christ is. We know historically that the apostles of Jesus heard him teach, founded churches, and ordained bishops to continue their teachings. These disciples preserved the writings that eventually became the New Testament and formulated the creeds, defining who Jesus Christ and God of the NT are because there were multiple definitions, none of which meet LDS criterea.

1800 years later, Mr. Smith and his followers completely redefined all of theological definitions in the NT, creating a different religion. We can choose the new or stay with the old, but no one can deny that the definitions are drastically different.

IMHO, the one historically closer is more likely to be "correct," but you can believe whatever makes you warm and fuzzy (like me).
Actually, from my understanding of the historical Christianity, these creeds and ideaologies were debated time and time again at several councils. There were people like Athanius and oh gosh, what is his name, starts with an "A", just can't remember it.

Not everyone at the beginning had the same idea. Seems there was a bit of confusion, even in the early church.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
beckysoup61 said:
Seems there was a bit of confusion, even in the early church.
I can't deny that there wasn't confusion, but nothing in this confusion can represent LDS thought.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
angellous_evangellous said:
I can't deny that there wasn't confusion, but nothing in this confusion can represent LDS thought.
Why don't you give some actual examples, instead of dodging the issue. Tell us why our christ is different, and then tell why your version of christ is more biblically sound.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I can't deny that there wasn't confusion, but nothing in this confusion can represent LDS thought.
Actually I believe there was, I'm taking a class right now called Christian History and we are discussing this very subject. There were some people that believed that there were seperate and distinct beings, unforutnatley, those same people also thought Christ wasn't divine, which is strange, but, yes, there were some people and if you want me to find them, I will (But not now, I have a job interview in an hour)
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Aqualung said:
Why don't you give some actual examples, instead of dodging the issue. Tell us why our christ is different, and then tell why your version of christ is more biblically sound.
Are you not familiar enough with both versions that you can't talk intelligently about it? We can use the Christian definition of Christ from the Athanasian Creed and you can use whatever LDS literature that you want. If you can't or refuse to do so, I will post articles from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism when I have time.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Are you not familiar enough with both versions that you can't talk intelligently about it? We can use the Christian definition of Christ from the Athanasian Creed and you can use whatever LDS literature that you want. If you can't or refuse to do so, I will post articles from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism when I have time.
Funny enough, the Athansian Creed had to be voted on by several people in order to have it be official doctrine. There was much confusion in the Church over this issue. That Creed was never issued by the Apostles, so you have several hundred years and then this Creed comes up or this idea that may have gotten twisted in the process and then it is voted on.

BTW, I hope you saw what I posted about the Encylopedia of Mormonism.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
beckysoup61 said:
Funny enough, the Athansian Creed had to be voted on by several people in order to have it be official doctrine. There was much confusion in the Church over this issue. That Creed was never issued by the Apostles, so you have several hundred years and then this Creed comes up or this idea that may have gotten twisted in the process and then it is voted on.

BTW, I hope you saw what I posted about the Encylopedia of Mormonism.
Again, it is better than several thousand years for Mr. Smith.

I did see your post and I have responded.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Again, it is better than several thousand years for Mr. Smith.

I did see your post and I have responded.
And what is so wrong with several thousands years if it is in direct revelation from God?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Aqualung said:
Why don't you give some actual examples, instead of dodging the issue. Tell us why our christ is different, and then tell why your version of christ is more biblically sound.
There are no examples to give. You can search through the various early Christian groups in Bauer's Orthodoxy and Heresy to see if any early "Christian" groups who were "confused" are LDS.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Bauer/

EDIT: It would be a waste of time for both of us if I were to present Bible verses about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or God when we both define these words drastically differently. I can't see how that will do any good at all. We will both see "our" Christ. I assume that everyone posting here reads the Bible with their own presupposed definitions of who Christ is, and we know historically that none of these definitions are in the Bible. One is a product of the apostles' disciples and one is the product of the 20th century.

The trump card is that we can actually read the NT with the Trinitarian approach without disregarding anything. The LDS can simply disregard anything that contradicts their view.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
angellous_evangellous said:
Are you not familiar enough with both versions that you can't talk intelligently about it? We can use the Christian definition of Christ from the Athanasian Creed and you can use whatever LDS literature that you want. If you can't or refuse to do so, I will post articles from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism when I have time.
This is a better definition to use than anything from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. You can find it in the December 2004 Ensign. As this was actually written BY Apostles, instead of a council trying to figure out what Apostles said 200 years before, I think this is more authoritative than any of the Creeds.
THE LIVING CHRIST
T​
HE TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLES

T​
HE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world. He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America.
In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Ephesians 1:10).
Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).
Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! “For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— “That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).
We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth— “built upon the foundation of . . . apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20).
We testify that He will someday return to earth. “And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together” (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles— that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.
God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.​
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
SoyLeche said:
This is a better definition to use than anything from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. You can find it in the December 2004 Ensign. As this was actually written BY Apostles, instead of a council trying to figure out what Apostles said 200 years before, I think this is more authoritative than any of the Creeds.
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Fine. I will read this and respond.

EDIT: We will need more sources to fully understand the article. It does not define many of the terms that are listed.

Who is Jehovah of the OT?
He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament
What is the premortal existence, and where did Jesus teach it (in the NT)? There are no references for any of these teachings...

He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the
life to come.
The document also does not clarify whether or not LDS is monotheistic or polytheistic. Is the Father God? How is Jesus divine? Are humans divine, too (premortal existence)?

This document is inadequate for our discussion unless terms are defined from other sources.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
angellous_evangellous said:
Fine. I will read this and respond.

EDIT: We will need more sources to fully understand the article. It does not define many of the terms that are listed.

Who is Jehovah of the OT? What is the premortal existence, and where did Jesus teach it (in the NT)? There are no references for any of these teachings...

The document also does not clarify whether or not LDS is monotheistic or polytheistic. Is the Father God? How is Jesus divine? Are humans divine, too (premortal existence)?

This document is inadequate for our discussion unless terms are defined from other sources.
If you want the LDS definitions of these words I would suggest that you go to www.lds.org - then to the link called "The Scriptures" that is on the left side. The Study Helps there will be authoritative. Especially helpful will be the Bible Dictionary (although some of the terms not specifically mentioned in the Bible - like the word premortal existence - might not be there). The Guide to the Scriptures will be very helpful in defining what terms mean to the LDS church as well. The Topical Guide and the Index will point you to instances in the scriptures where the different topics can be found.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
SoyLeche said:
If you want the LDS definitions of these words I would suggest that you go to www.lds.org - then to the link called "The Scriptures" that is on the left side. The Study Helps there will be authoritative. Especially helpful will be the Bible Dictionary (although some of the terms not specifically mentioned in the Bible - like the word premortal existence - might not be there). The Guide to the Scriptures will be very helpful in defining what terms mean to the LDS church as well. The Topical Guide and the Index will point you to instances in the scriptures where the different topics can be found.
Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I have read the entries for Jesus and Christ and the same terms are presented without definition.

Ok, I can work with this. I will post when I can.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
angellous_evangellous said:
Are you not familiar enough with both versions that you can't talk intelligently about it? We can use the Christian definition of Christ from the Athanasian Creed and you can use whatever LDS literature that you want. If you can't or refuse to do so, I will post articles from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism when I have time.
No, I am not familiar enough with your version of Christ. What does the Athanasian creed say about Christ, and how is that Biblically supported?

The trump card is that we can actually read the NT with the Trinitarian approach without disregarding anything. The LDS can simply disregard anything that contradicts their view.
And what is it exactly that I am not reading? ONce again, you make sneaky attacks without actually providing anything.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
From http://scriptures.lds.org/bdg/god we see that LDS and Christians define God differently.

BIBLE DICTIONARY
GOD

The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23).

When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.

Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through his Spirit), mankind has a special relationship to him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in his image, whereas all other things are but the work of his hands (cf. Acts 17: 28-29).

The God of the scriptures is a holy being. Man is commanded to be holy because God is holy (Lev. 11: 44-45; Lev. 19: 2). God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed, or remain forever unknown (cf. Mosiah 4: 9). God first revealed himself to Adam (Moses 5; 6) and has repeatedly made himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. The present translation of John 1: 18 and 1 Jn. 4: 12 is misleading, for these say that no man has ever seen God. However, the scriptures state that there have been many who have seen him. The JST corrects these items to show that no sinful man has ever seen God, and also that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God. God the Father and his Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3: 16-17); the Transfiguration (Matt. 17: 1-8); to Stephen (Acts 7: 55-56); and to the Nephites (3 Ne. 11: 7). The Father and the Son personally visited Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove, in the spring of 1820, near Manchester, New York, in the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS-H 1: 11-20).

Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family; as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind, and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.

For other references to God, see Heb. 1: 1-3; Jacob 4: 5; D&C 20: 17.

See also Holy Ghost; Jehovahhttp://scriptures.lds.org/bdj/jehovah.
Christians don't believe that the Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus Christ are three seperate beings with flesh and blood. The dictionary makes it clear that later LDS revelation, and not the Christian Bible or theology, teaches that God is the literal father of humans (premortal existence from God having sex with someone). Thus we have a different version of God that is foreign to Christian Scripture and theology.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Compare to Athanasian Creed:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;


2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
 
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