The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

Muffled · Dec 19, 2013

Ingledsva said:
Yes, you have to look at the verse and the word used. Sometimes they are referring to a purifying fire, like a forge, and sometimes they mean total annihilation. The Gehenna Fire seems to mean you have been judged a criminal. And like them will find yourself tossed/destroyed on the burning garbage heap.

Tanakh has no Hell or evil Satan. That seems to be what later Christians picked up from other religions and started to incorporate into later Christian texts.

EDIT - After reading one of your other post I believe the problem is the translation of one word. There is no "fire" in the quoted text.

He realizes he has placed himself far from YHVH. He looks up and sees the poor man in the Bosom of Abraham - and "BURNS" in his yearning for what he has lost. Water has always represented the word, or knowledge.

So there is no "fire," nor the word "eternal" connected to it, in that text.

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I believe Gehena is a metaphor for Hell in that it is continually burning.

I believe it is annihilation of the body but not the spirit.

I believe appearances are deceiving. I believe Jesus is God in the flesh and knows what Hell is even if He hasn't had a good reason to mention it previously.

I believe some deductions can be made. One is that burning that requires water is not intense yearning because water won't help that. However I do agree that it is a perceptual burning since the spirit has no feeling or tongue. I believe that is similar to when a hypnotized person is told that something is hot and told to touch it that he feels burned even though the object isn't hot.

I don't believe it is legitimate to deduce symbology when Jesus has not stated that there is symbology. He has not said this is like that.

Muffled · Dec 19, 2013

Goddess Ashtara said:
What the hell.

God is NOT the God of Love. God is the God of moral balance, the greatest good and evil, the most powerful creative and destructive force there is.

I think you all have God confused with Aphrodite.

I agree but I do believe that God is love and a morality is consistent with that love.

I believe God isn't looking to be balanced with evil but to eliminate it.

I can't speak for others but I believe, I know I haven't.

Ingledsva · Dec 25, 2013

Ingledsva said:
Yes, you have to look at the verse and the word used. Sometimes they are referring to a purifying fire, like a forge, and sometimes they mean total annihilation. The Gehenna Fire seems to mean you have been judged a criminal. And like them will find yourself tossed/destroyed on the burning garbage heap.

Tanakh has no Hell or evil Satan. That seems to be what later Christians picked up from other religions and started to incorporate into later Christian texts.

EDIT - After reading one of your other post I believe the problem is the translation of one word. There is no "fire" in the quoted text.

He realizes he has placed himself far from YHVH. He looks up and sees the poor man in the Bosom of Abraham - and "BURNS" in his yearning for what he has lost. Water has always represented the word, or knowledge.

So there is no "fire," nor the word "eternal" connected to it, in that text.

Muffled said:
I believe Gehena is a metaphor for Hell in that it is continually burning.

I believe it is annihilation of the body but not the spirit.

Ingledsva said:
The problem is that they are adding "permanent" to Gehenna, in the wrong sense. It should be translated as "total annihilation." Gehenna fire is where criminals are totally consumed, - not a permanent-forever-torture.

Muffled said:
I believe appearances are deceiving. I believe Jesus is God in the flesh and knows what Hell is even if He hasn't had a good reason to mention it previously.

Ingledsva said:
I don't believe the text says Jesus is God. He is just a special, sent, teacher. I believe if they thought it to be eternal torment - they would have said so in the older texts.

Muffled said:
I believe some deductions can be made. One is that burning that requires water is not intense yearning because water won't help that. However I do agree that it is a perceptual burning since the spirit has no feeling or tongue. I believe that is similar to when a hypnotized person is told that something is hot and told to touch it that he feels burned even though the object isn't hot.

Ingledsva said:
It is a story, a metaphor. A drop of water on his tongue obviously would not put out a "hell-fire" of eternal torture, either. It is definitely yearning. He looks up at the others, at the head table, far from where he placed himself, with a burning/yearning.

Muffled said:
I don't believe it is legitimate to deduce symbology when Jesus has not stated that there is symbology. He has not said this is like that.

What do you mean by this? Luke 15 &16 are parables (fictitious narrative, comparison, figurative.)

Luke 15:3 And he spoke this parable unto them, saying, ...

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Muffled · Dec 26, 2013

Ingledsva said:
What do you mean by this? Luke 15 &16 are parables (fictitious narrative, comparison, figurative.)

Luke 15:3 And he spoke this parable unto them, saying, ...
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The problem is that they are adding "permanent" to Gehenna, in the wrong sense. It should be translated as "total annihilation." Gehenna fire is where criminals are totally consumed, - not a permanent-forever-torture.

I agree that permanency is not a sure thing but the temporality of Hell is that of eternality ie not of lasting forever but of having no time. Mark 9:48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Triumphant_Loser · Dec 26, 2013

mickiel said:
I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.

Peace.

The Christian god reminds me of an abusive boyfriend.
"Baby, you know I'm only torturing you because I love you."

Sha'irullah · Dec 26, 2013

Muffled said:
I agree but I do believe that God is love and a morality is consistent with that love.

Very poor choice of words because god's love is not consistent in the slightest.

Considering that the deity you speak of forbade murder yet sends his followers to go a step up and commit genocide is something I along with many others find to be inconsistent
.

I believe God isn't looking to be balanced with evil but to eliminate it.

Is rape and murder evil?
The creator of evil cannot be the one who is solely love and wishes to rid evil.

NIV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Now here is the lesser liked version...

KJV "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Ingledsva · Dec 29, 2013

Ingledsva said:
What do you mean by this? Luke 15 &16 are parables (fictitious narrative, comparison, figurative.)

Luke 15:3 And he spoke this parable unto them, saying, ...

The problem is that they are adding "permanent" to Gehenna, in the wrong sense. It should be translated as "total annihilation." Gehenna fire is where criminals are totally consumed, - not a permanent-forever-torture.

Muffled said:
I agree that permanency is not a sure thing but the temporality of Hell is that of eternality ie not of lasting forever but of having no time. Mark 9:48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In Mark 9:48 it is not "hell" but "Geheena." Geheena is the dump outside the city - which is always burning - to destroy garbage and the bodies of criminals.

The idea behind the verse, is that it is better to chop off a limb (rather then commit a criminal act with it,) and thus make it to heaven, rather then commit the crime, and end in total annihilation on the Gehenna garbage fire.

No Hell, torture, or demons, meant there.

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InfiniteBeloved · Dec 29, 2013

I don't have a lot to add to this debate (which is an interesting one), other than to say that a lot of the viewpoint depends on whether you see the The Bible as absolute truth, or relative truth, expressed in metaphor, to urge mankind to behave well... (simplistic terms I know).

CG Didymus · Jan 15, 2014

InfiniteBeloved said:
The Bible as absolute truth, or relative truth, expressed in metaphor, to urge mankind to behave well...

I only read the first page and the last, but what you said is what I think the NT writers were looking to do, scare people into believing and doing good. But does that teaching really work? Does it sound like a loving God or the scare tactics of religious people? Supposedly the God of the Jews wrathful and frightening, but the supposed loving God of the Christians? He's the one that's sending people to hell for not only being evil, but for even those that are trying to do good but are in the wrong religion.

illykitty · Jan 15, 2014

Why not simply erase or make those people who deserve hell work off their crime instead? Or reincarnate them to teach them a lesson? There's so many more meaningful ways to deal with it than torture.

I know not all people who believe in hell think it's literal but for those who do, there's many alternatives that even a lowly mortal can think of. Why does god go with the most horrific way possible?

allright · Jan 15, 2014

Revelations 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image

Isaiah 30:33 For a Tophet (burning place) was established of old Yes for the king it is prepared. He has made it large and deep Its pyre with much wood. The breath of the Lord like a stream of brimstone kindles it

Quirkybird · Jan 15, 2014

allright said:
Revelations 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image

Isaiah 30:33 For a Tophet (burning place) was established of old Yes for the king it is prepared. He has made it large and deep Its pyre with much wood. The breath of the Lord like a stream of brimstone kindles it

How very, very SICK, the supposed deity would have to be the most evil psychopath ever if that is how it treated people who didn't find favour with it! :facepalm:

allright · Jan 15, 2014

Quirkybird said:
How very, very SICK, the supposed deity would have to be the most evil psychopath ever if that is how it treated people who didn't find favour with it!

Not people who didnt find favor, rebels who refused his offer of forgiveness and treated his Son's death with contempt so they they could continue in their lives of sin and rebellion and continue defiling his creation

Quirkybird · Jan 15, 2014

allright said:
Not people who didnt find favor, rebels who refused his offer of forgiveness and treated his Son's death with contempt so they they could continue in their lives of sin and rebellion and continue defiling his creation

Forgiveness for what? The deity portrayed in the not so 'good' book, is more evil than any human ever!

allright · Jan 15, 2014

Quirkybird said:
Forgiveness for what? The deity portrayed in the not so 'good' book, is more evil than any human ever!

Only to does who want to justify continuing in a life of sin

Quirkybird · Jan 15, 2014

I am far from perfect ,but I am not evil in the way the deity is evil. Thank goodness it is a fictional character created by humans, or one would be looking at ways of trying to exterminate it!

allright · Jan 15, 2014

Quirkybird said:
I am far from perfect ,but I am not evil in the way the deity is evil. Thank goodness it is a fictional character created by humans, or one would be looking at ways of trying to exterminate it!

:seesaw:

Quirkybird · Jan 15, 2014

allright said:
:seesaw:

I am the yellow one, the deity is the red one!

Triumphant_Loser · Jan 15, 2014

allright said:
Not people who didnt find favor, rebels who refused his offer of forgiveness and treated his Son's death with contempt so they they could continue in their lives of sin and rebellion and continue defiling his creation

I'm a non-believer, but I do not treat Jesus' death with contempt. I respect the fact that he was willing to die for what he believed in... although I may not share those same beliefs. On a side note, I'm curious to know why the Christian god punishes finite "sins" with infinite torture. In all honesty, if God were a human torturing other humans in the same manner, he'd be on trial for crimes against humanity.

Ingledsva · Jan 15, 2014

allright said:
Revelations 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image

Isaiah 30:33 For a Tophet (burning place) was established of old Yes for the king it is prepared. He has made it large and deep Its pyre with much wood. The breath of the Lord like a stream of brimstone kindles it

Barnes' Notes on The Bible, says of Isaiah 30:33- "The sense is, that the army of the Assyrians would be completely destroyed, as if it were a large pile of wood in the valley of Hinnom that should be fired by the breath of God."

As usual it is not talking about any eternal Hell.

As to Revelation It wasn't written until after 70 AD and probably around 95 AD. It is part of the Christian NT, which changed the Satan of Tanakh into an evil being with a fiery Hell.

Neither Tanakh nor Jesus speak of eternal torture in a Hell.

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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

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