Sees
Dragonslayer
This goes for majority
Which group who thinks Jesus is important at all, feel as though others have the right Jesus?
Everybody has their specific prophecies or favorite quotes and translations to support their Jesus.
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The Physical Mechanics of the Virgin Birth
- Thread starter nazz
- Start date
This goes for majority
Which group who thinks Jesus is important at all, feel as though others have the right Jesus?
Everybody has their specific prophecies or favorite quotes and translations to support their Jesus.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
This goes for majority
Which group who thinks Jesus is important at all, feel as though others have the right Jesus?
Everybody has their specific prophecies or favorite quotes and translations to support their Jesus.
Sadly this is true but not surprising. Apostasy was foretold for Christianity and the wheat (sheep) have been growing alongside the weeds (goats) all this time. When Jesus comes as judge, he will sort out the sheep from the goats and many who thought they were sheep (wheat) are going to get a nasty shock. (Matt 13:24-39; 7:21-23)
According to Jesus, the weeds were sown by the devil, so if you apply the criteria that Jesus set for his disciples, you will soon see who is a true disciple and who is just pretending to be.
If you apply the criteria for the Messiah, without Jewish influence, you will see that he was the son of the virgin, as the prophesy stated. Hundreds of prophesies were fulfilled in Jesus. Of course the Jews will have objections....the leaders of Jesus' day put to death an innocent man after an illegal trial with false witnesses.
They have no say in the matter as far as I am concerned.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
This is an interesting statement Nazz.
What do you think of Jesus' warning to his disciples in John 15:18-20?
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours."
Notice the last sentence there....Jesus did not expect the Jews as a whole to accept his word, but he knew some would. There was no way he was going to water it down to 'attract' them. He told the truth and those who loved the truth were drawn to him. It is no different today. (John 6:44) Just as there were followers of Jesus in spite of the hostility of the Jewish leaders and other zealots back then, true Christians today will face the same hatred and yet press on in the work Jesus assigned to all his disciples...the "preaching of the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations" before God brings the wicked world crashing down. (Matt 23:14; 28:19, 20)
nazz
Doubting Thomas
At this point we have completely lost my original point that I will repeat here:
If this is the case then there would actually be no reason for him to even to have born into David's line as it would not be an actually biological descendant of David. Which according to Jewish reckoning based on the Bible itself would disqualify him from being the Messiah. The very reason the genealogies were added to the text was to try to prove to Jews he had the right DNA.
Certainly God would know what Jews expected of their Messiah, right? So God would know that Jesus simply being the adopted son of Joseph would not work for them. That being the case he might as well have been adopted by a man of any tribe.
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
You really think Jewish reckoning is going to support Jesus as Messiah? Seriously?
They have to find ways to discredit him, don't you see. It's not about DNA as has already been stated. It was about proving that he was Messiah. Part of that proof was that he would be born of a virgin in the correct family line. Jesus was both of those things. Everyone knew him as "the carpenter's son". (Matt 23:55) There was no question about his DNA, only that the people of the day would identify him as the son of Mary and Joseph. (Luke 3:23)
It's about the credentials that proved who he was. This was just part of it, not the sum total. There were many false Messiahs, so having the right credentials was imperative.
God was not too concerned about what Jews expected...he was more concerned with discerning which individuals were being drawn to the truth. Jesus didn't water down the truth....he condemned those wicked men outright.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·hen′na twice as much so as yourselves." (Matt 23:13-15)
Jesus told the people what these hypocrites were up to. Only those who saw through them and their self righteousness responded to the truth.
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nazz
Doubting Thomas
You really think Jewish reckoning is going to support Jesus as Messiah? Seriously?
It's not about DNA as has already been stated. It was about proving that he was Messiah. Part of that proof was that he would be born of a virgin in the correct family line. Jesus was both of those things. Everyone knew him as "the carpenter's son". (Matt 23:55) There was no question about his DNA, only that the people of the day would identify him as the son of Mary and Joseph. (Luke 3:23)
It's about the credentials that proved who he was. This was just part of it, not the sum total. There were many false Messiahs, so having the right credentials was imperative.
God was not too concerned about what Jews expected...he was more concerned with discerning which individuals were being drawn to the truth. Jesus didn't water down the truth....he condemned those wicked men outright.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·hen′na twice as much so as yourselves." (Matt 23:13-15)
Jesus told the people what these hypocrites were up to. Only those who saw through them and their self righteousness responded to the truth.
I'm afraid what you are saying does not make much sense. On the one hand you say God doesn't care what kind of Messiah the Jews are looking for or what their criteria (based on the bible actually, God's word?) might be. Then you say his being born into the line of David was important to prove his credentials (in other words satisfy Jewish requirements based on biblical teachings)
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
You misunderstand, or perhaps I am not making the point clear enough.
I have read the arguments that the Jews put forward to discredit Jesus as messiah. There are reams of them.
I find the same attitude as Jesus did in a "stiff necked people" who just can't be told anything they don't want to hear. :ignore:
(Acts 9:19-22) After his conversion, Paul "got to be for some days with the disciples in Damascus, and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God. But all those hearing him gave way to astonishment and would say: “Is this not the man that ravaged those in Jerusalem who call upon this name, and that had come here for this very purpose, that he might lead them bound to the chief priests?” But Saul kept on acquiring power all the more and was confounding the Jews that dwelt in Damascus as he proved logically that this is the Christ."
(Acts 17:1-3) "...according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to you.”
(Acts 18:28) "Now a certain Jew named A·pol′los" was a disciple instructed only in the baptism of John. When Pris·cil′la and Aq′ui·la heard him speak, they took him into their company and expounded the way of God more correctly to him. The result was...
"...with intensity he thoroughly proved the Jews to be wrong publicly, while he demonstrated by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ."
Why did the Jews reject Jesus when there was so much evidence that he was the one that they were waiting for?
It was the expectation proffered by the religious leaders that was in error, not Jesus' credentials. They were seeking a political Messiah who would liberate the nation from Roman domination and re-establish God's nation as a people in their own land and they would get to keep their self righteous position.
Jesus said...“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]. They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men.....Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted" (Matt 23:2-7, 12)
Nowhere was this liberator said to be a political mover and shaker. He was definitely NOT what they wanted their Messiah to be. They were not exalted, but humiliated by him.
The liberation Jesus preached was entirely spiritual. The weapons in a Christian's arsenal were also to be spiritual. (Eph 6:11-18)
Jesus made no attempt to overthrow the Roman government and he did not curry favor with the proud Jewish leaders...rather he exposed them as the worst hypocrites in existence. He showed them up for what they were and that incurred their hatred and opposition. They coldly plotted his death.
Was God one bit concerned about how these men felt? Why would he be? Do you see Jesus holding back his denunciation of them?
Yes, satisfying Jesus' credentials according to scripture...NOT according to the Pharisees twisted interpretation of it. See the difference?Then you say his being born into the line of David was important to prove his credentials (in other words satisfy Jewish requirements based on biblical teachings)
Jesus had all the credentials but the Jews rejected them and looked for ways to get rid of him.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
I believe the miraculous birth of Jesus to be true but we just don't know the science behind it.
Actually the birth of Jesus is nothing compared to the amazing world we are living in.
First we have to assume that there was nothingness and just vacuum before we know that there is a universe and a living and non living matter, how that happened ?
if we are sure that we got a rational answer then we can think about the simplest one which is Jesus in our case.
Anything will looks strange and miraculous if we don't know the science behind it.
Lets imagine that we are living in the 1st century and someone told us that it is possible to see someone in china while we are somewhere in the west.
Of course we will think of it to be impossible and miraculous, but because we know the science behind it then it is very well understood nowadays.
Of course there was an undetectable and unseen energy that has its effect on Mary's ovum but we don't know the science behind it.
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nazz
Doubting Thomas
You misunderstand, or perhaps I am not making the point clear enough.
I have read the arguments that the Jews put forward to discredit Jesus as messiah. There are reams of them.
You should understand that Jews did not invent messianic criteria to discredit Jesus. It already existed before Jesus showed up.
He wasn't the one they were waiting for.
Yes, exactly. Even the disciples were looking for that. They didn't understand in the beginning.
But there are many verses in the biblical text that do support that idea.
Yes, I totally agree.
:no: Jesus did not fulfill the messianic criteria as outlined in the Jewish Scriptures. These are:Was God one bit concerned about how these men felt? Why would he be? Do you see Jesus holding back his denunciation of them?
Yes, satisfying Jesus' credentials according to scripture...NOT according to the Pharisees twisted interpretation of it. See the difference?
Jesus had all the credentials but the Jews rejected them and looked for ways to get rid of him.
1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah(Genesis 49:10) anda direct male descendent of
both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d.(Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28: “And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah
excerpted from: http://jewsforjudaism.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/handbook_english.1.pdf2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah(Genesis 49:10) anda direct male descendent of
both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d.(Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28: “And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah
(more in the next post)
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Here is another more extensive list: Jewish messianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
- Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
- The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
- He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
- The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
- Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
- Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
- He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
- All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
- Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
- There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
- All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
- The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
- He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
- Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
- The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
- The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
- Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
- The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
- He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
- He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
No, he wasn't what they wanted the Messiah to be.....big difference.
Their expectations were based on national pride, not a desire to do God's will. Remember that the Jewish system had lost the plot by the time Jesus was ready to take up his mission.
They had formed in their own minds a view of the Messiah that was not his actual role at that time. Failing to understand the spiritual nature of the prophesies and the actual time for their fulfillment, does not make them wrong. Nor does their future fulfillment mean that the past disappointments were well founded. Where was their faith in their God and his promises?
If some of the Jews "got it" and acted accordingly by accepting Jesus, that does not mean that God can forgive the ones who were responsible for educating his people in upholding their faith. As I asked before....why were "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" LOST in the first place? Jesus was sent to these ones exclusively.
Understanding God's timeframe also helps us to discern where we are in the outworking of his purpose. Paul spoke of a sacred "mystery" (or secret. Rom 16:25-27) that has been unfolding from Eden, right down to the present. God reveals what man needs to know, when they need to know it.
The first prophesy spoken by God immediately after the fall (Gen 3:15) outlined a plan of action that involved various 'players' whose identities were not revealed straight away, but unfolded as details of the "mystery" (or secret) were made known by God through his spirit. By the time Jesus had paid the ransom, the details of the 'secret' was almost fully revealed. From reading the Christian writings, we can see a sense of urgency as the coming of the kingdom seemed immanent. Yet here we are almost 2,000 years later and we are still waiting for the fulfillment to be finalised.
Again, understanding God's timeframe is vital. Peter showed us why.
"However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. .But Jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed." (2 Pet 3:8-10)
Waiting on God has always been difficult because we are restricted by earth years....Jehovah does not operate in 'earth time'.
By Peter's words we can see that a thousand years to God is like a day to us. Think about that....how long has this exercise been in operation from God's perspective? Not even a week.
What is the longest anyone has to wait for the coming of the kingdom? Only the short period of their own lifetime. Time ceases at death. Do we appreciate why God has to deal with rebellion in universal time instead of earth time?
The first rebel was not human. He was a spirit being who lives and operates in God's realm and time. He was joined by others of his ilk, so as powerful spirit beings, God must also deal with them in their own realm and time. That affects what takes place on earth and when. All our focus is here, but that is not the prime focus. The human race was hijacked and held to ransom. Christ has paid the price for our release, but the hijacker will yet be brought to justice.
That's right, but at no time did their lack of understanding make them lose faith. They demonstrated a waiting attitude and even when Jesus spoke about things they did not presently understand, they waited for an explanation. They did not immediately dismiss what he said as nonsense, but knew he would impart the correct understanding in time. The disciples completely understood the "what" and the "why", but they did not know the "when". (1 Cor 1:4-9) God has always kept the "when" to himself. (Matt 24:36)
The Messianic prophesies are still in their outworking. The 'what' and the 'why' have been unfolding since Eden....they will all see their complete fulfilment in the establishment of God's kingdom over this earth. This kingdom already rules Christ's disciples as they carry out their commission to 'preach the good news of God's kingdom in all the earth.' (Matt 24:14, 28:19, 20)
We see the "sign" that Jesus gave to indicate his "presence" (as opposed to his coming) as king, in these "last days". He is directing the preaching work that he commissioned, and only he can discern who is a "sheep" and who is a "goat". Separating people is what he is doing right now by their response to his message. This is the only "witness" that they will get, just like Noah warned the people of his day of what was to come. Noah did not know the "when" either, until one week before it started to rain. God closed the door of the ark, not Noah.
Christ's rulership will extend to all the earth only after he has cleansed it of all wickedness. Once all opposers of his kingdom have been eliminated and the devil and his hordes are placed in a state of complete inactivity for the thousand years it will take to bring everything back to square one, then we will see the complete fulfilment of ALL the Messianic prophesies.
hopefully already explained
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Even though that might be true of some or even many, what Nazz posted in #150 was the real reason.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Lack of spiritual discernment is not the same as claiming that the prophesies were not fulfilled, therefor Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
If the "lost sheep" responded to Jesus as Messiah, what was stopping the Pharisees from the same discernment? I believe that it was because the religious leaders of the day were condemned by God for their appalling lack of faith and their pretentious practices "to be viewed by men" rather than how they were viewed by God. Their Messiah was going to perpetuate their false teachings and their self righteousness.
Jesus did not have a good thing to say about them. Their history spoke for itself. They were in positions of responsibility and accountable to God for how they carried it out....Jesus told them in no uncertain terms how God felt about them.
They were incorrigible and unforgivable. :sorry1:
nazz
Doubting Thomas
:no: Their expectations were based on what the bible said to expect. This is undeniable.
That's a whole other topic.
Actually they did at first! when Jesus spoke of his impending death they wanted none of it! The Messiah put to death, what??? Impossible! But you are right they did keep faith in him right up to the end. Then they deserted him to a man! Why? Because he did not do what they expected him to do as Messiah!
It was only his resurrection that rekindled their faith in him. Then, and only then, did they slowly come to a different understanding of who Messiah was and what his real mission was. But some of them never really understood which is why he have all this stuff about Jesus coming back as a Warrior-King.
And just to state what I think is an obvious, but relevant point - Having a virgin for a mother does not appear in either list here.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I can't make heads-nor-tails of the above, so maybe you can clarify?
That's a stereotype that in reality doesn't make much sense. Certainly there were and still are leaders in every faith that lack compassion and justice, but blaming an entire group carte blac makes so little sense. BTW, Jesus worked out of the Pharisee tradition, although it appears his main bone of cntention was with the mainline Pharisee element. IOW, what we see bing played out n the gospels is essentially a "family" dispute.
A stereotype such as what you write is also "incorrigible" but I do believe is forgivable.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
:sorry1: reading that back does sound confusing.
I was referring to the Pharisees position. Just because Jesus did not meet "their" criteria of what the Messiah would do at that time, doesn't mean the prophesies were not fulfilled. Their expectation of the Messiah and his role were in error. Jesus just did not fulfil their expectation is all.
When Jesus corrected them for their gross hypocrisy, they did what the nation had always done to the prophets God had sent in previous times....they silenced him and then justified their actions so that they could continue on in their error. This was certainly nothing new. I don't have to tell you about Israel's history. The leopard did not change its spots.
Going by what Jesus said, he stereotyped the entire group. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" (Matt 13) I guess he was pretty much summing up the teachings and attitude of the whole group, though individuals like Gamaliel and Nicodemus may have seen the light. (Acts 5:34-40; John 3:1-21) individuals from the Jewish nation made up the sum total of the first Christians, since Jesus was sent to them exclusively.
I think it was a little more than that. One does not condemn his brother to Gehenna. Sectarianism was not part of original Judaism and this very thing is what put the Jews at odds, not only with one another, but with the God they claimed to worship. Sectarianism is also what led Christendom into apostasy.
"Stereotype" seems to be a favorite word used to discredit what someone says about another group; its a bit like playing the "racism" card. It is meant to distract attention away from the argument and back onto the opponent. But if a group demonstrates that it teaches things that are not truth, then I am at a loss to know how else to categorise them.
If Jesus castigated the entire group, then anyone supporting the teachings of that group were complicit.
Once the truth is revealed individuals have to evaluate the situation and act according to what their heart dictates....but keep in mind that the heart can be a traitor, justifying what it wants like a petulant child. (Jer 17:9, 10) Jehovah reads the heart as well as the actions that it motivates. Jesus also had the ability to read hearts. He said that the hearts of those wicked men were "far removed" from him (Matt 15:7, 8)
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
:sorry1: reading that back does sound confusing.
Notta problem.
Post #150 lists the prophecies, and Jesus clearly didn't fulfill them.
I have taught Jewish history in various seminars, and what you write above simply is wrong on so many counts. First of all, we clearly didn't silence him even though we didn't agree with parts of what he said. Secondly, we didn't silence the prophets, which is why they show up in our scriptures that you read but all too often misinterpret. Thirdly, you say "the leopard did not change its spots", and yet you claim other wise by saying we somehow fell into hypocrisy, which indeed would have the leopard changing its spots. BTW, how many times have the J.W.'s predicted "the 2nd coming" and the judgement-- but we're still here?
Back then I do believe people would have known whom Jesus was referring to even if he had used some stereotypical language. However, Matthew is written no less than around 40 years after Jesus died whereas the split between the Way and normative Judaism had occurred, therefore the verse above may well reflect the use of stereotyping as a way to demean those who didn't follow Jesus.
Different groups arose at different times, but to claim that this led to being supposedly at odds with God is simply false and nonsensical. Even your own "gospels" attest to that whereas Jesus tells his followers to obey what they teach but not mimic their actions.
BTW, what makes you believe that J.W.'s are not apart of this "apostasy"? I know what you teach as I live next to two J.W. families and well know the teachings, which all too often don't reflect history and have been shown to predict false prophecy. How many times can the J.W. leadership make an error and then excuse it by backtracking?
Stereotyping is a form of lying because it implies that all people within a given group are the same. And it's very easy to avoid that by using the adjectives "some", "many", etc.
We know there were roughly four different Pharisee groups, who often differed in their approach to Torah, the "oral law", and the "building the fence around the Torah", the latter two items Jesus may have opposed as "laws made by men". To treat all Pharisees as if the same, especially since both Jesus and Paul were Pharisees themselves by all indications, is intellectual dishonesty. If I say "J.W.'s are intellectually dishonest", would you accept that as a stereotype?
Once the truth is revealed individuals have to evaluate the situation and act according to what their heart dictates....but keep in mind that the heart can be a traitor, justifying what it wants like a petulant child. (Jer 17:9, 10) Jehovah reads the heart as well as the actions that it motivates. Jesus also had the ability to read hearts. He said that the hearts of those wicked men were "far removed" from him (Matt 15:7, 8)
What you are missing is the simple fact that the gospel accounts were written decades after the fact by people who had an ax to grind against Jews who didn't accept Jesus as a Messiah or as a literal "son of God", and this gets reflected in what you read there. Scripture is far more subjective than objective, and if you try to read it as being objective, you're making a big mistake.
shalom
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Something to bear in mind in sifting through this material, JJD, is the context in which these gospels were written. All of the canonical gospels date to the latter part of the first century or at the latest the beginning of the second century. At that point in time Christianity had become well established in Gentile lands and was waning in its Jewish homeland. Rabbinical Judaism, following the teachings of the Pharisees, was fast become THE Judaism. So the Christian polemic is aimed at that group. We hear almost nothing about the Saduccees in the gospels despite the fact they had the upper hand during Jesus' earthly life.
But this is only part of the story. The truth is that Jesus actually agreed with a lot of the Pharisee teachings and incorporated them into his own. He had followers who were Pharisees and others were at least sympathetic toward or tolerant of the Christian movement (Acts 5:34-39). Pharisees respectfully addressed Jesus as "Rabbi". On one occasion some Pharisees warned Jesus that Herod was trying to kill him (Luke 13:31). Josephus reports that it was the Pharisees who complained to the Romans when James was martyred. The most telling clue that the full story is not being told is found in this passage of Matthew:
Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do."
This does not sound like someone opposed to Pharisee teaching! No, what Jesus opposed was their hypocrisy and their elevating of the traditions of men above the commandments of God.
Interestingly enough the Pharisees argued amongst themselves even going so far as to claim the other was a "son of hell"! There were two distinct schools of Pharisees in Jesus' day who did not agree. And later rabbinic writings also mentioned seven types of Pharisees, five of them criticized:
Connections: Seven Kinds of Pharisees
I think it is going a little too far to suggest as some do that Jesus himself was a Pharisee. Jesus belonged to no sect and did not need any to instruct him. He taught the word he heard from God.
But this is only part of the story. The truth is that Jesus actually agreed with a lot of the Pharisee teachings and incorporated them into his own. He had followers who were Pharisees and others were at least sympathetic toward or tolerant of the Christian movement (Acts 5:34-39). Pharisees respectfully addressed Jesus as "Rabbi". On one occasion some Pharisees warned Jesus that Herod was trying to kill him (Luke 13:31). Josephus reports that it was the Pharisees who complained to the Romans when James was martyred. The most telling clue that the full story is not being told is found in this passage of Matthew:
Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do."
This does not sound like someone opposed to Pharisee teaching! No, what Jesus opposed was their hypocrisy and their elevating of the traditions of men above the commandments of God.
Interestingly enough the Pharisees argued amongst themselves even going so far as to claim the other was a "son of hell"! There were two distinct schools of Pharisees in Jesus' day who did not agree. And later rabbinic writings also mentioned seven types of Pharisees, five of them criticized:
Connections: Seven Kinds of Pharisees
I think it is going a little too far to suggest as some do that Jesus himself was a Pharisee. Jesus belonged to no sect and did not need any to instruct him. He taught the word he heard from God.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have to leave very shortly, but let me make what I wrote clear. I do not know if Jesus belonged to any Pharisee group or identified with any group in any way, but he certainly operated out of the Pharisee tradition as did Paul and probably the others.