Isaiah 24:21 ???

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

CMike said:
Tumah I think you have been making excellent posts.

Tumah and CMike, like Pegg you both have a lot of impute when it comes to the Word of God, she has limited God to her JW religion; you have limited God to the Torah or the OT (which I am not real clear what part of the OT the Torah is so I will address your Word of God as the Torah and the OT WHEN IT COMES TO ME)

Both groups here CANNOT see the deep spiritual message of the Word of God for these limitations.

One of the spiritual hidden themes of the Bible is what we EAT is symbolic of what we believe; I see this allegory hidden all though out the Bible in both the OT and NT.

One of these allegories is manna.

God wanted us to eat fresh new manna every day or food from God that was a new revelation not yesterday’s traditions. This is why we all differ, I see am seeking the new manna God is revealing; you three are defending yesterday manna

Tumah · Dec 24, 2013

Benoni said:
Tumah and CMike, like Pegg you both have a lot of impute when it comes to the Word of God, she has limited God to her JW religion; you have limited God to the Torah or the OT (which I am not real clear what part of the OT the Torah is so I will address your Word of H\God as the Torah)

Both groups here CANNOT see the deep spiritual message of the Word of God for these limitations.

One of the spiritual hidden themes of the Bible is what we EAT is symbolic of what we believe; I see this allegory hidden all though out the Bible in both the OT and NT.

One of these allegories is manna.

God wanted us to eat fresh new manna every day or food from God that was a new revelation not yesterday’s traditions. This is why we all differ, I see am seeking the new manna God is revealing; you three are defending yesterday manna

I will explain to you where your mistake is.
When you open the OT, you do not turn to the first page with a blank slate. You have already read/been inculcated with ideology from the NT. So what to you seems patently obvious is only because your mind is making connections to ideas that you've already experienced before. I will give you a prime example. It doesn't only apply to you, it even applies to people of other religions.

Imagine you never heard of Jesus. You're not familiar with his story, you know literally nothing about anything having to do with him. Now, you open up Isaiah 53 and you start reading. You read about a character suffering for others. You read about how they didn't treat this character well. You read about how G-d is testing this character. The whole story.

Now, having never heard of Jesus, you try to think about who this character is. You search for context clues, etc. It would never dawn on you that this story could possibly be talking about Jesus because the idea of a god-man coming to die for the sins of everyone else is mentioned nowhere in the rest of the OT. The idea would be completely foreign to you. Chances are you would assume that the servant is referring to Israel or perhaps some other post-Isaiah Scriptural figure. Not because of some anti-Jesus leaning but because you were simply never exposed to this idea, to consider it a possibility.

However, today knowing what you do, you can't look at the story without seeing a clear and obvious reference to Jesus. Having been exposed to the ideas of the NT, you can't possibly understand Isaiah 53 as talking about anyone other than him.

This is what you do when you read Scriptures. It's not only you. I'm not trying to degrade you or your views (or take the thread off the topic), just to explain what is happening and why we don't see what you see. You read Scriptures through the lens of the NT. I read it through the lens of the Talmud. Others might be just opening it without any prior ideas and just reading the Books as they are.

dantech · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah said:
I will explain to you where your mistake is.
When you open the OT, you do not turn to the first page with a blank slate. You have already read/been inculcated with ideology from the NT. So what to you seems patently obvious is only because your mind is making connections to ideas that you've already experienced before. I will give you a prime example. It doesn't only apply to you, it even applies to people of other religions.

Imagine you never heard of Jesus. You're not familiar with his story, you know literally nothing about anything having to do with him. Now, you open up Isaiah 53 and you start reading. You read about a character suffering for others. You read about how they didn't treat this character well. You read about how G-d is testing this character. The whole story.

Now, having never heard of Jesus, you try to think about who this character is. You search for context clues, etc. It would never dawn on you that this story could possibly be talking about Jesus because the idea of a god-man coming to die for the sins of everyone else is mentioned nowhere in the rest of the OT. The idea would be completely foreign to you. Chances are you would assume that the servant is referring to Israel or perhaps some other post-Isaiah Scriptural figure. Not because of some anti-Jesus leaning but because you were simply never exposed to this idea, to consider it a possibility.

However, today knowing what you do, you can't look at the story without seeing a clear and obvious reference to Jesus. Having been exposed to the ideas of the NT, you can't possibly understand Isaiah 53 as talking about anyone other than him.

This is what you do when you read Scriptures. It's not only you. I'm not trying to degrade you or your views (or take the thread off the topic), just to explain what is happening and why we don't see what you see. You read Scriptures through the lens of the NT. I read it through the lens of the Talmud. Others might be just opening it without any prior ideas and just reading the Books as they are.

I agree with this. I also grew up with only Jewish surroundings, and adults do try to shelter you from other religions as you grow up, at least in the neighborhoods where I grew up they do. Which is probably why most of the things that JWs and Christians say make so little sense to me.

dantech · Dec 24, 2013

One possible explanation for why God would punish angles, who have no free-will is the following:

It has been said that Angels do not have free-will, but they do have feelings, conscience, sentiments, things they like, things they don't like etc...

It has also been said that they have all these things, but also have free-will - and since they know God on a personal level, they wouldn't ever dare go against his word, which ends up in them always doing the right thing, regardless of whether they have free-will or not.

Moving on... It is known that this world is a world of action. It is here that our actions count. It is here that we must do our best, and be the best we can be, to eventually be admitted into the world to come. Perhaps it's the opposite in Heaven. In Heaven, if there is no possibility of disobeying God, yet there are possibilities of wanting/liking what God doesn't, then wouldn't that be what Angels could get judged on?

In the Talmud, Meguila 10b, it describes that when the Egyptians were sinking, that the Angels rejoiced, and God got angry at them for doing so.

You see, there are angel's whose jobs are to tempt us into sin, and there are angels who have other jobs which are negative ones. They will not get punished for doing what they were commanded to do in the first place, they can however get punished if they enjoy when they succeed in making us fall.

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah said:
I will explain to you where your mistake is.
When you open the OT, you do not turn to the first page with a blank slate. You have already read/been inculcated with ideology from the NT. So what to you seems patently obvious is only because your mind is making connections to ideas that you've already experienced before. I will give you a prime example. It doesn't only apply to you, it even applies to people of other religions.

Imagine you never heard of Jesus. You're not familiar with his story, you know literally nothing about anything having to do with him. Now, you open up Isaiah 53 and you start reading. You read about a character suffering for others. You read about how they didn't treat this character well. You read about how G-d is testing this character. The whole story.

Now, having never heard of Jesus, you try to think about who this character is. You search for context clues, etc. It would never dawn on you that this story could possibly be talking about Jesus because the idea of a god-man coming to die for the sins of everyone else is mentioned nowhere in the rest of the OT. The idea would be completely foreign to you. Chances are you would assume that the servant is referring to Israel or perhaps some other post-Isaiah Scriptural figure. Not because of some anti-Jesus leaning but because you were simply never exposed to this idea, to consider it a possibility.

However, today knowing what you do, you can't look at the story without seeing a clear and obvious reference to Jesus. Having been exposed to the ideas of the NT, you can't possibly understand Isaiah 53 as talking about anyone other than him.

This is what you do when you read Scriptures. It's not only you. I'm not trying to degrade you or your views (or take the thread off the topic), just to explain what is happening and why we don't see what you see. You read Scriptures through the lens of the NT. I read it through the lens of the Talmud. Others might be just opening it without any prior ideas and just reading the Books as they are.

You are not degrade my view, I love hearing what our Hebrew brothers and God have to say, makes my view of the OT more broader.

I quote from Psalms 90:1-3 again: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction"

I see a god-man Adam dying at the beginning of the Book of Genesis for a purpose and a plan by God before the sin of Adam; so why would not God send a a god-man Jesus to reverse the curse of Adam???

God caused the fall and God will restore all of us back to where where we were and much much more.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potters hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

12 And they said, That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus says the LORD:

dantech · Dec 24, 2013

Benoni said:
You are not degrade my view, I love hearing what our Hebrew brothers and God have to say, makes my view of the OT more broader.

I quote from Psalms 90:1-3 again: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction"

It starts: Tefila LeMoshe, Ish HaElokim. This means :"A Prayer of Moses the man of God." You started translating from 90:2, rather than 90:1 when that's really the only verse that could somehow be mistranslated into Man-God. I think it's pretty clear you don't read Hebrew, and don't understand it. What I don't get is why you are trying to teach it to us, the Hebrew speakers?

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

dantech said:
It starts: Tefila LeMoshe, Ish HaElokim. This means :"A Prayer of Moses the man of God." You started translating from 90:2, rather than 90:1 when that's really the only verse that could somehow be mistranslated into Man-God. I think it's pretty clear you don't read Hebrew, and don't understand it. What I don't get is why you are trying to teach it to us, the Hebrew speakers?

I used Ps 92 in reference to God causing man to fall, not as a reference to the man-god statement that was first brought up by Tumah, in reference to Jesus.

Adam was created in God's image and likeness in Genesis on the sixth day, on the seventh day God lowered Adam so Adam would fall from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul.

Now if Adam was created in God's image and likeness what does this mean???

ALSO:

Then we have: Psalm 8:5 literally says that God has caused mankind to lack from Elohim, which is the God-company.

and

Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.

men are (elohim) (Ps 82),

Psalm 82

1 God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods(elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Also the worf elohim was the first name of God used in Genesis

Tumah · Dec 24, 2013

Benoni said:
I used Ps 92 in reference to God causing man to fall, not as a reference to the man-god statement that was first brought up by Tumah, in reference to Jesus.

Adam was created in God's image and likeness in Genesis on the sixth day, on the seventh day God lowered Adam so Adam would fall from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul.

Now if Adam was created in God's image and likeness what does this mean???

ALSO:

Then we have: Psalm 8:5 literally says that God has caused mankind to lack from Elohim, which is the God-company.

and

Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.

men are (elohim) (Ps 82),

Psalm 82

1 God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods(elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Also the worf elohim was the first name of God used in Genesis

Yes, Adam was created in G-d's image. However, the word Adam means Man in Hebrew. Man was created in the image of G-d. Not just the first one. See Genesis 5:2-3. "ADaM" is the same word used to refer to mankind, "He called their name ADaM", Man. And Adam who was himself created in G-d's image, then begot sons in his image- which was the image of G-d.

It is true that the name Elohim is first used in description of G-d. However, if you actually look at all the instances that the word is used, you will notice that it doesn't only refer to G-d. The reason is because the word Elohim comes from the root word "EL" which means "Mighty (Job 41:17 et al)." In other words, Elohim is referring to someone who has power over another.

For instance, the judge controls those that come to his court- he can sentence you to life or death, he can make you rich or poor. Judges are called Elohim. In ancient times, gods were created after the natural "powers" of the world. False gods are also called Elohim. Angels are immensely more potent than Man. Angel are called Elohim. Here are some examples.

Ex.4:16 "And it will be, he shall be to you as a mouth and you shall be to him as Elohim". Obviously Moses didn't temporarily become G-d. That makes no sense. Rather this refers to Moses being placed in control over Aaron- whatever he wanted Aaron to say, he would say. Just as G-d speaks through the prophets.

Ex. 21:6 "Then his master shall bring him to the Elohim; and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost..." This verse is speaking about a slave who wants to remain by his master. Bringing one's slave to G-d has no practical meaning. In this case, the word Elohim is referring to the judges who sold him the slave in the first place.

Ex. 22:8 "For any word of transgression...to the Elohim shall come the word of both..." This verse is clearly saying that for any judicial issue, one should go to the judges to decide the issue.

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah said:
Yes, Adam was created in G-d's image. However, the word Adam means Man in Hebrew. Man was created in the image of G-d. Not just the first one. See Genesis 5:2-3. "ADaM" is the same word used to refer to mankind, "He called their name ADaM", Man. And Adam who was himself created in G-d's image, then begot sons in his image- which was the image of G-d.

It is true that the name Elohim is first used in description of G-d. However, if you actually look at all the instances that the word is used, you will notice that it doesn't only refer to G-d. The reason is because the word Elohim comes from the root word "EL" which means "Mighty (Job 41:17 et al)." In other words, Elohim is referring to someone who has power over another.

For instance, the judge controls those that come to his court- he can sentence you to life or death, he can make you rich or poor. Judges are called Elohim. In ancient times, gods were created after the natural "powers" of the world. False gods are also called Elohim. Angels are immensely more potent than Man. Angel are called Elohim. Here are some examples.

Ex.4:16 "And it will be, he shall be to you as a mouth and you shall be to him as Elohim". Obviously Moses didn't temporarily become G-d. That makes no sense. Rather this refers to Moses being placed in control over Aaron- whatever he wanted Aaron to say, he would say. Just as G-d speaks through the prophets.

Ex. 21:6 "Then his master shall bring him to the Elohim; and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost..." This verse is speaking about a slave who wants to remain by his master. Bringing one's slave to G-d has no practical meaning. In this case, the word Elohim is referring to the judges who sold him the slave in the first place.

Ex. 22:8 "For any word of transgression...to the Elohim shall come the word of both..." This verse is clearly saying that for any judicial issue, one should go to the judges to decide the issue.

I agree elohim is used all though out the Bible; but if we are not sons of God what are we?

I do not see elohim as angels, I do see elohim as God's sons that is why I quoted Ps 82 in the context of that phase elohim is addressed as both God and gods, same word.

Why did Adam/man fall from grace so God can play games with man?

No God has a plan and I see that plan in both the OT and NT: Do you understand what the Tabernacle of David was/is??

Amos 9:1 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Also in the NT:

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residueof men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

And again in the OT: Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Tumah · Dec 24, 2013

It would be really helpful if you weren't changing the font all the time. It only makes it more difficult to read.

Benoni said:
I agree elohim is used all though out the Bible; but if we are not sons of God what are we?

"And the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of man..." The context of the phrase indicates that "sons of Elohim" are not the same as "daughters of man" and not just because of the gender difference.

Benoni said:
I do not see elohim as angels, I do see elohim as God's sons that is why I quoted Ps 82 in the context of that phase elohim is addressed as both God and gods, same word.

That is fine. But you will also need to explain why Genesis 6:2 calls man "sons of Elohim" and Psalms 82:6 says "you are Elohim". Is Man Elohim or the sons of Elohim?

Also, how can G-d stand among other gods? There are no other gods.

Benoni said:
Why did Adam/man fall from grace so God can play games with man?

Falling from grace is not a phrase found in Scriptures. Try rephrasing your phrase in a way that someone who has only read Scriptures and not the NT would understand.

Benoni said:
No God has a plan and I see that plan in both the OT and NT: Do you understand what the Tabernacle of David was/is??

I am not questioning whether there is a plan or not. The only point I was making here was that your understanding of the "OT" is completely influenced by what you have read in the NT. Therefore you are bound to understand it through the lens of the NT. Someone who has not read the NT might also understand that G-d has a plan. However, without the NT's influence, he might see the plan differently than you do.

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah;

It would be really helpful if you weren't changing the font all the time. It only makes it more difficult to read.

My computer and this web have issues and I cannot help the font issue as well as use the quotes icon, sorry

"And the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of man..." The context of the phrase indicates that "sons of Elohim" are not the same as "daughters of man" and not just because of the gender difference.

No, they saw the daughters of men; do you understand who the daughters of man are??? Its unclear to me

That is fine. But you will also need to explain why Genesis 6:2 calls man "sons of Elohim" and Psalms 82:6 says "you are Elohim". Is Man Elohim or the sons of Elohim?
Also, how can G-d stand among other gods? There are no other gods.

Big difference between God and god (little g)

Falling from grace is not a phrase found in Scriptures. Try rephrasing your phrase in a way that someone who has only read Scriptures and not the NT would understand.

Adam was kicked out of Garden of Eden

I am not questioning whether there is a plan or not. The only point I was making here was that your understanding of the "OT" is completely influenced by what you have read in the NT. Therefore you are bound to understand it through the lens of the NT. Someone who has not read the NT might also understand that G-d has a plan. However, without the NT's influence, he might see the plan differently than you do.

I am sure this is true, but I quoted both OT and NT, can you at least address the OT???

Tumah · Dec 24, 2013

Benoni said:
Tumah;

It would be really helpful if you weren't changing the font all the time. It only makes it more difficult to read.

My computer and this web have issues and I cannot help the font issue as well as use the quotes icon, sorry

Oh, that's ok then. It's just hard on the eyes.

Benoni said:
"And the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of man..." The context of the phrase indicates that "sons of Elohim" are not the same as "daughters of man" and not just because of the gender difference.

No, they saw the daughters of men; do you understand who the daughters of man are??? Its unclear to me

Nope, that's not what it says. It says, "B'NOS Ha'ADaM". The daughters of Man.

Benoni said:
That is fine. But you will also need to explain why Genesis 6:2 calls man "sons of Elohim" and Psalms 82:6 says "you are Elohim". Is Man Elohim or the sons of Elohim?
Also, how can G-d stand among other gods? There are no other gods.

Big difference between God and god (little g)

That is true. But how could G-d stand among things that don't exist. That is nonsensical.

Benoni said:
Falling from grace is not a phrase found in Scriptures. Try rephrasing your phrase in a way that someone who has only read Scriptures and not the NT would understand.

Adam was kicked out of Garden of Eden

Because he sinned.

Benoni said:
I am not questioning whether there is a plan or not. The only point I was making here was that your understanding of the "OT" is completely influenced by what you have read in the NT. Therefore you are bound to understand it through the lens of the NT. Someone who has not read the NT might also understand that G-d has a plan. However, without the NT's influence, he might see the plan differently than you do.

I am sure this is true, but I quoted both OT and NT, can you at least address the OT???

Sure. What exactly is the question?

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah said:
Nope, that's not what it says. It says, "B'NOS Ha'ADaM". The daughters of Man.

I can use you quotes if you do one at a time? Can you explain this? I cannot?

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah said:
That is true. But how could G-d stand among things that don't exist. That is nonsensical

because He is God and we are gods, big G little g

Ps 82

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

i see these as related; what do they mean to you?

Amos 9:1 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

And again in the OT: Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Benoni · Dec 24, 2013

Tumah said:
Because he sinned.

Because it was Gods plan:

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potters hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus says the LORD:

Tumah · Dec 24, 2013

Benoni said:
I can use you quotes if you do one at a time? Can you explain this? I cannot?

I'm not really sure what you're doing that is causing you problems.

Benoni said:
because He is God and we are gods, big G little g

Ps 82

If you are going to always translate Elohim as referring to either G-d or humans, then you are going to run into problems:

Ex. 20:2 "...do not have any other humans? before me..."
Ex. 4:16 "...you shall be for him as a human?...

The only translation that can apply to all cases is as I've explained. Otherwise, your best bet is to go on a case by case basis.

In that case what Psalms 82:2 says is:

G-d (Elohim) exists in the congregation of G-d (EL). Amid the judges (Elohim) He judges

Benoni said:
i see these as related; what do they mean to you?

Amos 9:1 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

And again in the OT: Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Well, they are related in that they are both eschatological prophecies.
The first prophecy is referring to the abundance that will exist. See Lev. 26:5
The second prophecy is referring revenge for the suffering at the hands of Esau.

I think the translation of "overtake" in Amos here means to catch up to. The word is actually to "come close" as in Gen. 44:18

Benoni said:
Because it was Gods plan:

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potters hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.
13 Therefore thus says the LORD:

I don't know what you are using for translation, but the words they choose are very misleading.

Psalm 90:3 says "you return man to crushing and say, 'Return sons of Man'". It means that G-d brings suffering (same word as in Isa. 53:10) as a way of getting him to repent.

Isa. 63:17 "Why do you lead us astray, G-d from Your ways..." G-d has the power to remove the evil inclination from Man and yet doesn't. Instead he keeps sending Satan to tempt us.

That is the "clay in the potter's hands." G-d has complete control over us. He can give us riches and things that make us happy. All the good things in life. Yet instead he sends us Satan to test us again and again.

Benoni · Dec 25, 2013

I see elohim as a name of God, a nature both God and man as one, we were made in God's image and likeness and are his children/sons which God preordained us to err

So when I see the name Elohim it can mean either God or gods as in Psalm 82

Psalm 82

1 God (elohim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods(elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Benoni · Dec 25, 2013

Tumah said:
I

Well, they are related in that they are both eschatological prophecies.
The first prophecy is referring to the abundance that will exist. See Lev. 26:5
The second prophecy is referring revenge for the suffering at the hands of Esau.

I think the translation of "overtake" in Amos here means to catch up to. The word is actually to "come close" as in Gen. 44:18

They are related because of their location

I asked you what is the Tabernaccle of David, I like to know this coming from how a Hebrew's understanding ?

Benoni · Dec 25, 2013

Tumah said:
Psalm 90:3 says "you return man to crushing and say, 'Return sons of Man'". It means that G-d brings suffering (same word as in Isa. 53:10) as a way of getting him to repent.

Isa. 63:17 "Why do you lead us astray, G-d from Your ways..." G-d has the power to remove the evil inclination from Man and yet doesn't. Instead he keeps sending Satan to tempt us.
That is the "clay in the potter's hands." G-d has complete control over us. He can give us riches and things that make us happy. All the good things in life. Yet instead he sends us Satan to test us again and again.

What you are missing in Ps 90 is the time frame: Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, and it was God who turned us destruction/ astray in this verse not Satan

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Besides Satan can do nothing outside the will of God. Look at Job:
Job 1:8And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job , that there is none like him on the earth,(P) a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" 9Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? 10Have you not put(Q) a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have(R) blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But(S) stretch out your hand and(T) touch all that he has, and he will(U) curse you(V) to your face." 12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

God is in control of all things; sure He limited what Satan could do; for a reason because God is always in complete control of all things to include Satan. But it was God who was the one who introduced Satan to Job Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job. It was God who took down the hedge from around Job so Satan to do his work on job. It was the process of tribulation and trial God was after; to prove Job.

Isaiah 24:21 ???

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