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Elisha

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Personally, I'm not looking for a debate, only thoroughly stated opinions..


2 Kings 2:23-25

And he goeth up thence to Beth-El, and he is going up in the way, and little youths have come out from the city, and scoff at him, and say to him, `Go up, bald-head! go up, bald-head!' And he looketh behind him, and seeth them, and declareth them vile in the name of Jehovah, and two bears come out of the forest, and rend of them forty and two lads. And he goeth thence unto the hill of Carmel, and thence he hath turned back to Samaria.


1) Why weren't these individuals given over to the Sanhedrin?

2) Is what Elisha did in this instance considered blasphemy, in any sense?
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Personally, I'm not looking for a debate, only thoroughly stated opinions..


2 Kings 2:23-25

And he goeth up thence to Beth-El, and he is going up in the way, and little youths have come out from the city, and scoff at him, and say to him, `Go up, bald-head! go up, bald-head!' And he looketh behind him, and seeth them, and declareth them vile in the name of Jehovah, and two bears come out of the forest, and rend of them forty and two lads. And he goeth thence unto the hill of Carmel, and thence he hath turned back to Samaria.


1) Why weren't these individuals given over to the Sanhedrin?

2) Is what Elisha did in this instance considered blasphemy, in any sense?

What Sanhedrin?

Peter
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
What Sanhedrin?

Peter

I'm asking you, Rabbi.

Where is the Sanhedrin at this point, and why are Elisha and these young men removed from/ outside of its judgements/jurisdiction?

Did it not exist during this time?
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I'm asking you, Rabbi.

Where is the Sanhedrin at this point, and why are Elisha and these young men removed from/ outside of its judgements/jurisdiction?

Did it not exist during this time?

Jewish tradition traces the Sanhedrin back to the gathering of 70 elders by Moses - Numbers 11:16, but there is virtually no evidence to support this. It is more likely that the Sanhedrin developed out of antecedent roots sometime within approx. 200 years prior to the Common Era, which would mean that there was no Sanhedrin during the time of Elisha.

(This is, of course, not the answer that an Orthodox member of the forum might give you, but comports, I believe, more closely with what we objectively can say is known.)

Peter
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You're avoiding the questions. Again: (a) what precisely do you think Elisha did, and (b) who do you think was there recording the incident?

I was avoiding the question.. Because I understand your claim to it's translation and interpretations.

Here are my questions (which are things I ask myself, as well):

What is blasphemy?

Did Elisha commit blasphemy, in any sense?



It seems as if the text is saying he cursed a group of the prophets' own sons, in the name of God, and they were as result mauled to death by bears.

Do I believe it happened? Not as described, or stripped of too many details, at least. And I think I understand why certain of the misdeeds of fathers may be shielded in metaphors and glorifications.


What's the landscape look like?


Perhaps it was a tough hike, and Elisha's leadership skills failed a few of those following him?
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
It seems as if the text is saying he cursed a group of the prophets' own sons.....

No, it does not say that. At the beginning of the chapter Elisha is at Jericho, later he is at Beth-el. Different cities, different people.

Just as a point of information, v’nei ha-nivi’im, sons of the prophets, is a term that denotes followers, not blood relatives.

Peter
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Personally, I'm not looking for a debate, only thoroughly stated opinions..


2 Kings 2:23-25

And he goeth up thence to Beth-El, and he is going up in the way, and little youths have come out from the city, and scoff at him, and say to him, `Go up, bald-head! go up, bald-head!' And he looketh behind him, and seeth them, and declareth them vile in the name of Jehovah, and two bears come out of the forest, and rend of them forty and two lads. And he goeth thence unto the hill of Carmel, and thence he hath turned back to Samaria.


1) Why weren't these individuals given over to the Sanhedrin?

2) Is what Elisha did in this instance considered blasphemy, in any sense?

Elisha was Jehovah's prophet, bearing the official garment of Elijah. Apparently these juvenile delinquents were manifesting the disrespect for God's prophet taught by their parents. Jehovah's punishment for this gross disrespect was swift and severe. Elisha appealed to Jehovah, and God's response showed he had approved Elisha as his representative. Disrespect for Elijah had a similar outcome for those who failed to acknowledge divine authority. (2 Kings 1:9,10)
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
No, it does not say that. At the beginning of the chapter Elisha is at Jericho, later he is at Beth-el. Different cities, different people.

Just as a point of information, v’nei ha-nivi’im, sons of the prophets, is a term that denotes followers, not blood relatives.

Peter

Interesting.. So Elisha held the title as well, being a son to Elijah?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
When you say, "being a son to Elijah", you mean what?

Peter

It must be a spiritual relationship, considering that the language describing followers, calls them sons.

Elisha received a double portion of Elijah's spirit.


Of the Suffering Servant, it is recorded:

By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued, And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth. And God hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of God in his hand doth prosper.


Do you see any parallels?
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
1) He is only one witness. It takes two witnesses to establish a fact Deut. 19:15

2) Where does it say one can't curse someone in G-d's Name?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
1) He is only one witness. It takes two witnesses to establish a fact Deut. 19:15

2) Where does it say one can't curse someone in G-d's Name?

It says one thing, and yet another in other places.

For example.. Genesis 9:6 calls mankind again as God's likeness, saying that anyone who sheds a man's blood will in turn have their blood shed by man.

Yet, beginning with Cain and continuing after Lamech, the meek have inherited their Earth and their clots of dirt, only to be taken by murder and pride.


Why not bless, instead of curse in God's Name?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It says one thing, and yet another in other places.

For example.. Genesis 9:6 calls mankind again as God's likeness, saying that anyone who sheds a man's blood will in turn have their blood shed by man.

Yet, beginning with Cain and continuing after Lamech, the meek have inherited their Earth and their clots of dirt, only to be taken by murder and pride.


Why not bless, instead of curse in God's Name?

Well for one thing, he did not directly or indirectly (as in press a button) kill anyone. He was able to use G-d's Name to manifest a forest out of which two bears came and killed them. So technically he was no in violation of Gen. 9.

But even if that weren't so, Gen. 9 does not include those that are deserving of death. Someone who profanes the Sabbath can't use Gen. 9 as a reason why the Court shouldn't kill him.

In this case Elisha who is a prophet and privy to the divine nature of things, determined that these people were deserving of death. Without even discussing the Jewish understanding of this story my first reaction to this story would be:
Here is a prophet who determined that some people needed to die. I don't understand why, but I don't see anywhere in the book where G-d reprimands him for it. So he must have been right. Now the question is, why?

Also, my Isaiah 60:21 disagrees with your Matthew 5:5
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Well for one thing, he did not directly or indirectly (as in press a button) kill anyone. He was able to use G-d's Name to manifest a forest out of which two bears came and killed them. So technically he was no in violation of Gen. 9.

But even if that weren't so, Gen. 9 does not include those that are deserving of death. Someone who profanes the Sabbath can't use Gen. 9 as a reason why the Court shouldn't kill him.

In this case Elisha who is a prophet and privy to the divine nature of things, determined that these people were deserving of death. Without even discussing the Jewish understanding of this story my first reaction to this story would be:
Here is a prophet who determined that some people needed to die. I don't understand why, but I don't see anywhere in the book where G-d reprimands him for it. So he must have been right. Now the question is, why?

Also, my Isaiah 60:21 disagrees with your Matthew 5:5


Technicalities.. To say, if I told my dog to attack and kill a man, this would also slide by.. Or, if I was an Elder, with power like God's messengers, in the forest with a group of stubborn young men, and two she bears were spotted- I may declare them deserving of death, and leave them damned to shreds.

I'm sure we all know to some degree why this description is still so polarizing.

And perhaps it was the truth, because God Himself did likewise in Eden.. And continues with every stubborn man to this day. But, there are instances where the stubbornness of those called "Israel" is removed, again and again, and again. The striving with God leave bruises, scars, broken bones, spilled blood, lost territory, etc. And though the messenger of God had been stronger, and capable of cursing the son of man, Jacob, as did Elisha- he instead gave him a blessing, according to request. Was this because the sons of Man strive all their day with God? And humility is the only knowledge required to be blessed with God?

I'd say Isaiah 60:21 is my very own hope. God Himself blessed me with this hope, as He did for you. Yet it goes undone, because violence is still a normality for "your people". But, the meek become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 60:22
The little one doth become a chief, And the small one a mighty nation, I, the Most High, in its own time do hasten it!
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Technicalities.. To say, if I told my dog to attack and kill a man, this would also slide by.. Or, if I was an Elder, with power like God's messengers, in the forest with a group of stubborn young men, and two she bears were spotted- I may declare them deserving of death, and leave them damned to shreds.[/QUOTE}

That is not my understanding of what happened. They were not in a forest. They were right outside the city. Elisha manifested the forest where there was none.
I think the fact that Elisha cursed them in G-d's Name and G-d and G-d materialized the curse, also implies how G-d felt on the matter. And of course as I said before, G-d never admonishes him.

I'm sure we all know to some degree why this description is still so polarizing.

I actually don't. I haven't even provided the Jewish perspective here. Only my own observations of the verse. That is simply: he is a prophet of G-d, I am a no one. If he thinks it was correct, he surely has the wisdom, piety and approbation to make a better judgement call than I can.

Obviously, you believe that your wisdom, piety and divine approval is greater than his. That's ok.

And perhaps it was the truth, because God Himself did likewise in Eden.. And continues with every stubborn man to this day. But, there are instances where the stubbornness of those called "Israel" is removed, again and again, and again. The striving with God leave bruises, scars, broken bones, spilled blood, lost territory, etc. And though the messenger of God had been stronger, and capable of cursing the son of man, Jacob, as did Elisha- he instead gave him a blessing, according to request. Was this because the sons of Man strive all their day with God? And humility is the only knowledge required to be blessed with God?

I sense a lot of preaching here, and I'm really not catching all your Christian references to makes sense of this.

I'd say Isaiah 60:21 is my very own hope. God Himself blessed me with this hope, as He did for you. Yet it goes undone, because violence is still a normality for "your people". But, the meek become the righteousness of God.

That doesn't leave you with a lot of hope then. I belong to the "and your nation" part of 60:21. Also G-d glories in Israel, see Isaiah 49:3 Unless you too are Jewish, you don't.

Also it seems as though I should introduce you to Isaiah 55:11.

Isaiah 60:22
The little one doth become a chief, And the small one a mighty nation, I, the Most High, in its own time do hasten it!

This verse does nothing for you.
You've also mistranslated it. It says:
The smallest will become a thousand (it says ELeF not ALUF), the young one a mighty (in number) nation. I G-d will hasten it in its time.

It is saying, Israel which has historically been only a small nation in number, will one day become a big nation. This is in fulfillment of the blessing G-d gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Technicalities.. To say, if I told my dog to attack and kill a man, this would also slide by.. Or, if I was an Elder, with power like God's messengers, in the forest with a group of stubborn young men, and two she bears were spotted- I may declare them deserving of death, and leave them damned to shreds.[/QUOTE}

That is not my understanding of what happened. They were not in a forest. They were right outside the city. Elisha manifested the forest where there was none.
I think the fact that Elisha cursed them in G-d's Name and G-d and G-d materialized the curse, also implies how G-d felt on the matter. And of course as I said before, G-d never admonishes him.



I actually don't. I haven't even provided the Jewish perspective here. Only my own observations of the verse. That is simply: he is a prophet of G-d, I am a no one. If he thinks it was correct, he surely has the wisdom, piety and approbation to make a better judgement call than I can.

Obviously, you believe that your wisdom, piety and divine approval is greater than his. That's ok.



I sense a lot of preaching here, and I'm really not catching all your Christian references to makes sense of this.



That doesn't leave you with a lot of hope then. I belong to the "and your nation" part of 60:21. Also G-d glories in Israel, see Isaiah 49:3 Unless you too are Jewish, you don't.

Also it seems as though I should introduce you to Isaiah 55:11.



This verse does nothing for you.
You've also mistranslated it. It says:
The smallest will become a thousand (it says ELeF not ALUF), the young one a mighty (in number) nation. I G-d will hasten it in its time.

It is saying, Israel which has historically been only a small nation in number, will one day become a big nation. This is in fulfillment of the blessing G-d gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


I don't know who told you I was Christian or why you think there are references here.. Even being Christian, I would give you 10 of your own Scriptures before I gave one from the NT.

Whether or not the forest had manifested is irrelevant (it doesn't say). What happened in the forest is the concern. Do I believe God gave me greater wisdom, piety, and divine approval? Let God speak of Himself; I bless the righteousness of God in all of His created likeness, as Isaiah says. But, according to my wisdom, piety, and divine approval- I am not concerned with undoing His blessings with curses, but blessing the cursed and the poor for His righteousness' sake.

I am not able, or willing, to curse any man to his death. My wisdom and piety, which come by humility, have told me to accept God's curses and those which He employs through men, but to curse nothing of my own accord/perception. I'd much rather acknowledge the mouth of God, according to Isaiah 55:11 which says:

So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that [for] which I sent it.

The Creator forms our reality according to the word of His mouth. The foresight of His being causes Him to speak all truth into its place!

And it is true that any man can curse, or kill another man.. If one man split into two, he would have cause to hate himself, just as fathers do their sons. Just as Jacob split into twelve tribes and strives against himself.. And it is said that God hates the beings and thoughts of men, calling them evil and idolatrous. But if Elijah may turn the hearts of fathers to sons, and of sons to fathers- he has done more than just raise the dead, but insure the living, as well.

Isaiah 66:2
And all these My hand hath made, And all these things are, An affirmation of the Most High! And unto this one I look attentively, Unto the humble and bruised in spirit, And who is trembling at My word.

God at times does not (seem to) admonish the wickedness of people. This is not surprising. It is known that God shows mercy to the wicked- Cain being the first obvious example. And not only will He leave the wicked ignorant of His righteousness- for a time- but in the case of Lamech, pride was multiplied. The prophets all speak of wickedness being smiled on, and innocence laughed at. Undoubtedly, Hitler took great pride in his deeds. So what do the Rabbis and prophets teach is God's justice for the millions of innocents killed? And which of them prophesied to warn you beforehand?

Job 9:22-24
It is the same thing, therefore I said, `The perfect and the wicked He is consuming.' If a scourge does put to death suddenly, At the trial of the innocent He laughs. Earth has been given Into the hand of the wicked one. The face of its judges he covers, If not -- where, who [is] he?

Psalm 109


I could caution you against calling every single one of the Jews by Israel's name, but which Jew would be willing to listen? You ignore the meaning, and the method to achieving the name, for blood entitlement? This is not surprising; many of your prophets were likewise trained to do so. But, if the Most High is beautified with the Jews (as with all creation), His power is ready for you to do the things He's promised. And while much of His power did remain with the Jews, from time to time, He also allowed the defilement of the Holy Land and it's people, along with the destruction of the House built in His honor. And for some time, David's sons have not been given respect comparable to his own.

Isaiah 53 calls the servant of God "cut off from the land of the living", for "your" account. He is given a grave along with the wicked. Yet, those accepting the guilt of His servant's sacrifice are called his "seed". Do you say that these "seeds" are of blood only? How then, does God's Spirit call any man His son?
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't know who told you I was Christian or why you think there are references here.. Even being Christian, I would give you 10 of your own Scriptures before I gave one from the NT.

You speak like a Christian so I know you are a Christian. And I providing me with my Scriptures will be more effective, as your own are proof of nothing.

Whether or not the forest had manifested is irrelevant (it doesn't say). What happened in the forest is the concern. Do I believe God gave me greater wisdom, piety, and divine approval? Let God speak of Himself; I bless the righteousness of God in all of His created likeness, as Isaiah says. But, according to my wisdom, piety, and divine approval- I am not concerned with undoing His blessings with curses, but blessing the cursed and the poor for His righteousness' sake.

I am not able, or willing, to curse any man to his death. My wisdom and piety, which come by humility, have told me to accept God's curses and those which He employs through men, but to curse nothing of my own accord/perception. I'd much rather acknowledge the mouth of God, according to Isaiah 55:11 which says:

So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that [for] which I sent it.

The Creator forms our reality according to the word of His mouth. The foresight of His being causes Him to speak all truth into its place!

And it is true that any man can curse, or kill another man.. If one man split into two, he would have cause to hate himself, just as fathers do their sons. Just as Jacob split into twelve tribes and strives against himself.. And it is said that God hates the beings and thoughts of men, calling them evil and idolatrous. But if Elijah may turn the hearts of fathers to sons, and of sons to fathers- he has done more than just raise the dead, but insure the living, as well.

Isaiah 66:2
And all these My hand hath made, And all these things are, An affirmation of the Most High! And unto this one I look attentively, Unto the humble and bruised in spirit, And who is trembling at My word.

All of this is a non-answer. Nothing here directly responds to the points I've made.

God at times does not (seem to) admonish the wickedness of people. This is not surprising. It is known that God shows mercy to the wicked- Cain being the first obvious example. And not only will He leave the wicked ignorant of His righteousness- for a time- but in the case of Lamech, pride was multiplied. The prophets all speak of wickedness being smiled on, and innocence laughed at.

Please provide and example from Scriptures of G-d not admonishing or punishing a prophet for a wrongdoing, or a prophet not recognizing his own error.

Undoubtedly, Hitler took great pride in his deeds. So what do the Rabbis and prophets teach is God's justice for the millions of innocents killed? And which of them prophesied to warn you beforehand?

Undoubthedly.
No one dies who does not deserve death. The Rock, his actions are perfect because all his ways are justice. (DEut. 32:4)
Prophecy ended during the Second Temple. Although some Rabbis did predict the coming doom.

None of this has any connection to anything.

Job 9:22-24
It is the same thing, therefore I said, `The perfect and the wicked He is consuming.' If a scourge does put to death suddenly, At the trial of the innocent He laughs. Earth has been given Into the hand of the wicked one. The face of its judges he covers, If not -- where, who [is] he?

Psalm 109

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

I could caution you against calling every single one of the Jews by Israel's name, but which Jew would be willing to listen? You ignore the meaning, and the method to achieving the name, for blood entitlement? This is not surprising; many of your prophets were likewise trained to do so. But, if the Most High is beautified with the Jews (as with all creation), His power is ready for you to do the things He's promised. And while much of His power did remain with the Jews, from time to time, He also allowed the defilement of the Holy Land and it's people, along with the destruction of the House built in His honor. And for some time, David's sons have not been given respect comparable to his own.

More Christian preaching.

Isaiah 53 calls the servant of God "cut off from the land of the living", for "your" account. He is given a grave along with the wicked. Yet, those accepting the guilt of His servant's sacrifice are called his "seed". Do you say that these "seeds" are of blood only? How then, does God's Spirit call any man His son?

That's not what it says. It says Israel was cut off from the land of the living for your account.
 
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