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A question about Jesus and his miracles
- Thread starter lorileescarlettseven
- Start date
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Really?! Because I don't recall there being any conditions placed upon Adam when God breathed Spirit into his nostrils. Nor do I remember God saying that God was removing Spirit from him when he was kicked out of the garden.
Acts2: 17 contradicts 1Cor 2:14. So it's a pick and choose which guilt scripture one wants to apply to people.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
well the man did die....
And there is a difference between the lifeforce that God breathed into the man, and Gods holy spirit.
Was Adam living by the holy spirit when he sinned?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there is no contradiction between these scriptures.
Acts 2:17*And in the last days, God says, I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18*and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19*And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; 20*the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives. 21*And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.
who are the 'slaves' of God? Everyone? I dont think so. God says he will give his spirit to 'MY' slaves.....to to 'everyone'
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Numbers 11:17*And I shall have to come down and speak with you there; and I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people that you may not carry it, just you alone.
Numbers 11:25 Then Jehovah came down in a cloud and spoke to him and took away some of the spirit that was upon him and put it upon each of the seventy older men. And it came about that as soon as the spirit settled down upon them, then they proceeded to act as prophets; but they did not do it again."
1 Samuel 10:6 And the spirit of Jehovah will certainly become operative upon you, and you will certainly speak as a prophet along with them and be changed into another man.
Nehemiah 9:20 And your good spirit you gave to make them prudent, and your manna you did not hold back from their mouth, and water you gave them for their thirst.
Isaiah 11:2 And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah;
Gods spirit is many things, it can be shared around, it can be removed from one person and given to another, it becomes wisdom to one person, understanding to another, mightiness to another, knowledge to another and prudence (discretion/foresight) to another.
Its certainly not a person.
You went from getting the holy spirit with conditions to being saved with conditions?
No wonder JW's are trying to work their way into peoples homes. You don't even agree with your own books. Staying in your Kingdom Halls until you can reproduce the miracles of Jesus would be a great assent to your bible. Then you would all know who gets the spirit and who don't.
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By fasting, we purify our hearts, bodies and spirits before God, driving out all worldly cares and attachment to sin. Jesus said that some demons can only be driven out by prayer and fasting, and we must keep our bodies pure, as they are temples of the Holy Spirit. Fasting is one of the many ways prescribed by Jesus and the Apostles for purifying ourselves and opening ourselves up to God.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
fasting was an expression of grief in bible times.
Now is the time for rejoicing in Christ and carrying on his work. Take note of this:
Matthew 9:14*Then Johns disciples came to him and asked: Why is it that we and the Pharisees practice fasting but your disciples do not fast? 15*At this Jesus said to them: The friends of the bridegroom have no reason to mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, do they? But days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast
Do you have the bridegroom with you? If you do, then you have no need for ritual fasting because we are brought close to God through Christ... not through fasting.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Is there? The word Ruach means both "breath" and "spirit." It's used both ways in the bible, so I assume that, theologically, it's an interchangeable concept.
Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive holy spirit." Is there a difference?
In answer to your second question: I think so, and here's why. It was only because God breathed holy spirit into humanity that humanity became nephesh, or "living being." Therefore, it is by virtue of holy spirit that we live.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"15 If you love me, you will keep[a] my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. 17 This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in[c] you."
"Him" certainly implies personhood.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And yet Jesus went into the wilderness and fasted for forty days following his baptism (after which God said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am pleased"). Doesn't sound like much of an occasion for grief to me. Sounds more like an occasion for preparedness.
Fasting is not only an expression of grief. The point of fasting is to build our relationship with God, preferring contact and prayer with Him over food. There were times in the Gospels where mere prayer alone wasn't enough to cast out demons; our Lord Himself tells us that some demons can only be cast out by prayer AND fasting. Jesus Himself fasted before beginning His ministry. He even gives us instructions on how to fast, if you'll look at Mark 6:16-18:
“When you fast, do not look sullen like the hypocrites, for they make their faces unattractive so that people will see them fasting. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. 17 When you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others when you are fasting, but only to your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.
Now, why would Jesus give us specific instructions on how to fast if fasting was unimportant? Note that Jesus said "WHEN you fast," not "IF you fast."
Fasting was also a common practice among the early Church, as you can find in Acts 13:
Now there were these prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius the Cyrenian, Manaen (a close friend of Herod the tetrarch from childhood) and Saul. 2 While they were serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, after they had fasted and prayed and placed their hands on them, they sent them off.
In fact, the Didache (a handbook for Christian living, most likely written during the second half of the first century, well within the lifetime of most of the Apostles) designates Wednesday and Friday as days of fasting for all Christians. Chapter 7 also decrees that those who are able should fast with the one who is about to be baptized.
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..
Pray this three times each day.
Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson
None of this even comes close to asserting that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. God is a God of justice and wisdom and mightiness. Is He no longer a person by your definition?
Because the Holy Spirit bestows spiritual gifts on people. God Himself can also remove Himself from one person and give Himself to another and bestow certain blessings on people. Does that mean that the Father isn't a person, either?
I already refuted this in the "The Trinity" thread in the Scriptural Debates DIR. I don't mind refuting it again here.
I want you to read the following Scripture:
Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. (The Holy Spirit teaches.)
John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you. (The Holy Spirit teaches.)
John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. (The Holy Spirit bears witness.)
John 16: 8 - And when he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment (The Holy Spirit can convict things.)
John 16:13-14 - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (The Spirit hears, speaks, guides, declares and takes.)
Acts 10:19-20 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation,[c] for I have sent them. (The Holy Spirit talks and sends people!)
Acts 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. (See above)
Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. (Again, the Holy Spirit talks!)
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. (Again, the Holy Spirit talks.)
Acts 15:25,28 - it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us (The Holy Spirit has opinions and makes judgements.)
Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. (The Holy Spirit prays for us to God and sighs. Impersonal forces can't do that.)
Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Forces can't "bear witness".
Rom. 15:30 - I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. (Only persons, rational beings, can love.)
1 Cor. 12:11 - All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (The Holy Spirit has a will and can make decisions.)
Eph. 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (The Holy Spirit can be grieved.)
None of this supports the idea that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force--it completely contradicts that notion.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Huh. Yeah. Exactly.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
In the Book of Proverbs... And?
So because death is spoken of metaphorically as a person on occasion, then that must 100% mean that the Holy Spirit is not a person?
Should we say that Adam isn't a person, either? His name is a derivative of "dust of the earth." And though he's spoken of as being a thinking, feeling person who makes decisions (exactly like the Holy Spirit), we all know that Adam is just a metaphorical personification, or an allegorization... Right?
This argumentation on your part smacks of the false equivalence fallacy.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
well you tell me, can a person get filled with another person?
Acts 2:1-4 says the holy spirit filled 120 people at the same time.
In Vs 17 it says that God will 'pour out his spirit on every kind of flesh'... Can God pour out a portion of a coequal God?
Another question pops up when we read Matthew 3:11*I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.
Is 'fire' also a person?
Is wisdom also a person? According to Luke 7;35, it has children:
Luke 7:35*All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children.
The bible writers obviously wrote in expressions of daily speech which they understood. They spoke figuratively as we to today. The book of Acts actually tells us what holy spirit is:
Acts 1:8*but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.
Power. Thats what the holy spirit is.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Let me ask you what you consider these verse to mean:
Notice that Jesus is annointed with holy spirit, you would say it is a person, but is 'power' also a person? if not, why not?
Acts 10:38*namely, Jesus who was from Naz′a·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him.
Another verse where personification occurs:
1John 5:6*This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. 7*For there are three witness bearers, 8*the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.
considering that these bear witness along with the spirit, they must also be persons, right?