My POV, idk

Aupmanyav · Dec 16, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3601396 said:
"Thou, Lord Vishnu, .. very splendid wealth with store of horses. (R.V.7.100.2)
I will declare the mighty deeds .. with one accord they sing forth praises [Rica-s/Su-ukta-s]. (R.V.10.1.3)

The Rig Veda, Herself, goes on to destroy the Orientalist perception that various Gods are minor:

“O’ Gods, not one of you is small, none of you is a feeble child: All of you are verily great!” (R.V.8.30.1)

As perhaps you know, the Rishis said that of any God or Goddess or even the older priests, the Atharvans and the Angirasas. While praising Gods, they used 'bahuvrihi' (I mean 'hyperbole'). It is endearing.

But when a thing is studied historically and analyzed, then we should not reject truths. Vishnu may have been a marginal God in Vedas, but he is the most popular God of Hinduism today incorporating Rama and Krishna, and because of that. I am told that in Serb language the Supreme God is called 'Vishnye' or something like it.

" "Sve-Vishnye," or " Sve-Vishnye-Bog," the most high God, delegates to his saints the guardianship of certain forces of nature:"
http://www.forgottenbooks.org/readb...Past_Glory_and_Their_Destiny_v1_1000349456/41

Poeticus · Dec 16, 2013

Aupmanyav said:
As perhaps you know, the Rishis said that of any God or Goddess or even the older priests, the Atharvans and the Angirasas. While praising Gods, they used 'bahuvrihi' (I mean 'hyperbole'). It is endearing.

But when a thing is studied historically and analyzed, then we should not reject truths. Vishnu may have been a marginal God in Vedas, but he is the most popular God of Hinduism today incorporating Rama and Krishna...

I'm not talking about today. I'm talking about the theological outlook, the over-arching "religious" notions of the Rig Veda. The whole notion of Vishnu being a "minor god" just because he doesn't have a lot of hymns is a notion purely based on frequency and philological bias. It's a preposterous and "elitist notion". It's not based on definitive truths, just Indological digressions.

Anyone who is familiar with the theology of the Rig Veda will reiterate the same truth: that Vishnu is not a "minor god". If we go by this logic, then we have to put aside the notion of Agni being a "major god", because numerous hymns attributed to Indra stress that only "Indra should be praised", for Indra is "supreme above all" (R.V.8.1). In other words, we can't go by quantity; we have to go by quality, for the Rig Veda's sake. The grammatical structure, the adjectives, the syntax and diction used in the hymns dedicated to Vishnu are very unique (and, I'm not being biased here; I'm not even a Vaishnava, BTW). The "work" that went into them, that we can tell by looking at the Vedic that they were "written" in, is not lousy nor "boring". It's of a very advanced, sophisticated structure.

There is no need for me to "historically and analytically" study the Rig Veda in terms of "Aryans and Dasyus" and "Vishnu is a minor god" and "let's go marauding today".

If "the most-hymned" (which is actually an epithet for Vishnu, by the way) Indra was of supreme importance, he wouldn't need Vishnu's help in tackling down Vrtra. The Indra-Vishnu hymns give great importance to Vishnu, that even the mere labeling of Vishnu as a "minor god" shows a poor understanding of Rig Vedic theology.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 16, 2013

Aupmanyav said:
As perhaps you know, the Rishis said that of any God or Goddess or even the older priests, the Atharvans and the Angirasas. While praising Gods, they used 'bahuvrihi' (I mean 'hyperbole'). It is endearing.

It is not hyperbole, not at least in RV. Any Vedic god is an Aditya, and what the Rsis found out was that each if these Aditya-s can expand and show all other Aditya-s within Himself/ Herself, including Himself/ Herself. That is, an Aditya in the Virāt form shows Aditi.
In the later Hinduism (driven mainly by Bhakti) we can accuse this as being a hyperbole, but will still do well to acknowledge the Vedic truth behind it. Bhakti has an inbuilt intelligence, no?

Aupmanyav said:
I am told that in Serb language the Supreme God is called 'Vishnye' or something like it.

" "Sve-Vishnye," or " Sve-Vishnye-Bog," the most high God, delegates to his saints the guardianship of certain forces of nature:"
p.24-5. The Servian People, Their Past Glory and Their Destiny

"Bog" as I get it has its Vedic origin in Bhag-- the god of matter and material universe and time (unknowingly you are His bhakta, seems). So Vishnu-Bhag is also very interesting, as the dual god tells us that Bhag can expand and show all possibilities within Himself (RV says, Vishnu incarnated and evolves from within Earth). Bhag showing Aditi within Himself is the truest principle of Evolution.

Vishnu-Bhag also brings into my heart the pancamukhi Hanuman, which to me is the 5-fold expansion of Bhag, in the form of the master Yogi of all time- Hanuman- fully capable of bringing in and bestowing immortality (Soma, remember?) upon us.

मैत्रावरुणिः;3601891 said:
There is no need for me to "historically and analytically" study the Rig Veda in terms of "Aryans and Dasyus" and "Vishnu is a minor god" and "let's go marauding today".

India-destroying MNC's do have that need, gullible half-educated (न घर के न घाट क&#2375

Hindus being their first targeted victims.

Aupmanyav · Dec 16, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3601891 said:
There is no need for me to "historically and analytically" study the Rig Veda in terms of "Aryans and Dasyus" and "Vishnu is a minor god" and "let's go marauding today".

Dasyus were the demons of darkness in the homeland of Aryans somewhere near the Arctic Circle. Aryans had a peaceful entry and a peaceful sojourn in India till the time they were assimilated. Nowhere, there is a mention of a war between Aryans and the indigenous people.

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
India-destroying MNC's do have that need, gullible half-educated (न घर के न घाट क&#2375 Hindus being their first targeted victims.

I do not mind that. You have your limitations.

Jainarayan · Dec 16, 2013

Hunter8 said:
I myself am tired of the incredible focus on the philosophical and doctrinal focus of Vaishnavism, as it takes away focus from Sadhana.

"Abandoning, after sincere trial, dependence on all human efforts at moral and spiritual upliftment, come to Me as the only Refuge. Grieve not; I will deliver you from all sins." Bhagavad Gita 18.66 (Tapasyananda version).

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." (As It Is version).

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 16, 2013

@Aupmanyav

Now I am getting it. You are neither atheist nor advaiti. You are the bhakta of the Vedic Deva Bhag.

All other gods are obliged to appear at the slightest summon of Bhag. Sometimes one calls it river, sometimes semi-conductor, microchip, sometimes they call it "lol", sometimes Michelangelo's sculpture, sometimes the phenomenon of Life, or Love, Veda, Science, Adhyatma, and what not--- it is Bhag, and Bhag, and Bhag, all the way.

And then we have even Avatara-s taking manifestation within Bhag, and the bhakta-jana calling it, therefore, Bhag-wAn.

I get it bro. Now tell me I am wrong, plain wrong.

Hunter8 · Dec 16, 2013

Jainarayan said:
"Abandoning, after sincere trial, dependence on all human efforts at moral and spiritual upliftment, come to Me as the only Refuge. Grieve not; I will deliver you from all sins." Bhagavad Gita 18.66 (Tapasyananda version).

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." (As It Is version).

Ah, indeed, the Charama Śloka, this is what I have been contemplating lately and it has been helping me greatly. Thank you for reminding me of it. When ever I think of this verse, I know that only Bhagavan could have said this. When you read this verse, there is security. :bow:

Narayana!

Jainarayan · Dec 16, 2013

I think all the "experts" who write articles and commentaries saying you have to do this or have to do that, or musn't this or that simply want their proverbial 15 minutes of fame. I mentioned Sri Ramana Maharshi in another thread. He never read the Bhagavad Gita or commentaries on it. He heard it here and there and said, well...

"People wonder how I speak of Bhagavad Gita, etc. It is due to hearsay. I have not read the Gita nor waded through commentaries for its meaning. When I hear a sloka, I think its meaning is clear and I say it. That is all and nothing more." Venkataramiah 2000, p. 315.

Aupmanyav · Dec 17, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
I get it bro. Now tell me I am wrong, plain wrong.

I do not charge at windmills.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 17, 2013

Aupmanyav said:
I do not charge at windmills.

हे भागव (O Bhag-bhakta/ BhAgava), is this quixotic disorientation caused by not finding your firm footing in wiki, google, other online/ offline resources, apropos of KT's Bhaga-inspired nuggets of xtreme wiz-dom?

Why not quote some of your favourite verses devoted to Bhaga in Veda? Why did you went into hiding, O BhAgava? I was looking for thee for millennia. And moreover <interrupted>...

Poeticus · Dec 17, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
हे भागव (O Bhag-bhakta/ BhAgava), is this quixotic disorientation caused by not finding your firm footing in wiki, google, other online/ offline resources, apropos of KT's Bhaga-inspired nuggets of xtreme wiz-dom?

Why not quote some of your favourite verses devoted to Bhaga in Veda? Why did you went into hiding, O BhAgava? I was looking for thee for millennia. And moreover <interrupted>...

bhága práṇetar bhága sátyarādho
bhágemā́ṃ dhíyam úd avā dádan naḥ
bhága prá ṇo janaya góbhir áśvair
bhága prá nŕ̥bhir nr̥vántaḥ siyāma

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 17, 2013

MV,
please, please, please,
"don't bend it like Jaskaran".

You ought to give at least verse reference, if not full translation. Howdy, how'd we know what it's all about?

Poeticus · Dec 17, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
MV,
please, please, please,
"don't bend it like Jaskaran".

You ought to give at least verse reference, if not full translation. Howdy, how'd we know what it's all about?

It's a verse of one of the most famous "Bhaga" hymns of all time:

Here's the hymn citation: R.V.7.41 and the verse that I posted is R.V.7.41.3.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 17, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3602912 said:
It's a verse of one of the most famous "Bhaga" hymns of all time:

Here's the hymn citation: R.V.7.41 and the verse that I posted is R.V.7.41.3.

Thank you, sir. Frubals duly sent.

Poeticus · Dec 17, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
Thank you, sir. Frubals duly sent.

Oh, you didn't have to, ji. You didn't have to. Very kind of you, sarji.

Hey, I know it's the same thing, but...in your family...do you say "bhagavAn" or "bhAgavan"?

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 17, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3602925 said:
Oh, you didn't have to, ji. You didn't have to. Very kind of you, sarji.

Hey, I know it's the same thing, but...in your family...do you say "bhagavAn" or "bhAgavan"?

It is usually bhagavAn भगवान, though many times as in vocative sense one says bhagavan भगवन् but I don't think I've heard of bhAgavan भागवन, however we usually say bhAgavAn भागवान to people (especially women) meaning "of good fortune", for as we both know Bhaga is the bestower दाता / धाता of fortune भाग्य.

Poeticus · Dec 17, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
It is usually bhagavAn भगवान, though many times as in vocative sense one says bhagavan भगवन् but I don't think I've heard of bhAgavan भागवन, however we usually say bhAgavAn भागवान to people (especially women) meaning "of good fortune", for as we both know Bhaga is the bestower दाता / धाता of fortune भाग्य.

Yes, very true. I also like how Savitur, O' Most Beloved Sun, is also given this attribution, like every other Shri God:

devasya savitur vayam vAjantaH puramdhyA bhagasya rAtim Imahe (from "Gayatri Hymn", R.V.3.62.11)

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 17, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3602952 said:
devasya savitur vayam vAjantaH puramdhyA bhagasya rAtim Imahe (from "Gayatri Hymn", R.V.3.62.11)

देवस्य सवितुर्वयं वाजयन्तः पुरन्ध्या |
भगस्य रातिमीमहे ||
With understanding, earnestly, of Savitar the God we crave
Our portion of prosperity.

Here is a very interesting feature of Sanskrit: the word bhaga is here an abstract noun meaning "riches", yet the same word is in many other places, like your quote earlier, a theonym (god's name).

This is an inbuilt feature, every other theonym seems to possess it (including my iSTa iLA) as if gods are inbuilt into this language.

Savitar-Bhaga is also extolled in some places as an important dual god, in the sense of evolution and expansion of Prithvi.

In short and long, Veda knows Bhaga is the basis. And expansion of Bhaga, the virāt Bhaga, is the goal of immortality. Again, Bhaga is a PrithviDevatā, and we know how Prithvi itself literally means: "expandable".

Kalicharan Tuvij · Dec 17, 2013

Hey MV
I so much wished you were an Indian Hindu, not American.
You know I have very low opinion of Indian-Americans (sorry I'm not *universal* enough).

Americans, every one of them, have blood on their hands (and conscience)- I doubt if anything at all could clean it - as we all know even if not taught to in text books of history. There is great guilt, the very foundation, on which this "great nation" is built.

The glitter of opportunism and greed will prove to be the very undoing of this nation, and I say this not because of some animus.

But I don't care. My concern is India, India, India. As it should be. So sorry for the rant.

Jainarayan · Dec 17, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
Hey MV
I so much wished you were an Indian Hindu, not American.
You know I have very low opinion of Indian-Americans (sorry I'm not *universal* enough).

Americans, every one of them, have blood on their hands (and conscience)- I doubt if anything at all could clean it - as we all know even if not taught to in text books of history. There is great guilt, the very foundation, on which this "great nation" is built.

The glitter of opportunism and greed will prove to be the very undoing of this nation, and I say this not because of some animus.

But I don't care. My concern is India, India, India. As it should be. So sorry for the rant.

Please return the $100 million that the US sends to India every year in foreign aid. It's blood money.

My POV, idk

Be your own guru

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Be your own guru

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

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ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

Be your own guru

Ästika

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