My Problems with Religion

sojourner · Dec 10, 2013

AmbiguousGuy said:
Messianic prophecies. I've seen Jews and Christians fight over them -- while a reasoning mind will see that they are like numerology or ouija boards. Hardly fit subjects to argue over.

A reasoning mind will see prophecy for what it is, to wit: a statement with regard to the world as defined by God, and not what it is not, to wit: a prediction of future events. Further, a reasoning mind will see that the classic Jewish/Xtian "fights" over prophecy tend to look at prophecy as the latter and not the former.

Sees · Dec 10, 2013

9-10ths_Penguin said:
There's a huge body of high quality evidence indicating that the mind and the brain are inexorably linked: when the brain is injured or its chemistry is altered, the person changes. I remember one anecdote of a person whose brain hemispheres didn't have the normal connections between them. They developed as two separate minds in the same body. In fact, one hemisphere was atheist and the other was theist. The idea that our mind can survive without the body implies that the mind is distinct from the functions of the brain, but this goes against the current evidence-based scientific understanding.

This is testing the mind-body connection while still alive though. I don't think it would put a damper on people seeing after-life as true or likely. Most who believe in it see the body and it's brain as the vehicle the soul/spirit/energy thingy uses until the body ceases to function.

You know the U.S. gubment has been testing paramormal/supernatural stuff for a long time now...the powers that be believe some of the crazy is true.

We used to teach in sentry removal to not stare at the person but just past or beside them as you closed distance. Something to do with unexplainable mind projection not related to the body-mind trap usually thought of. In every day life ever felt someone was staring at you and turned around to see someone really staring from several feet away?

We did our own little tests also.

nazz · Dec 10, 2013

Windwalker said:
I call your Bible verse and raise you one.....

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."

Touche. Yes, both are correct in their own ways. But when push comes to shove I follow Jesus not Paul.

Windwalker · Dec 10, 2013

nazz said:
Touche. Yes, both are correct in their own ways. But when push comes to shove I follow Jesus not Paul.

Correction. You follow your interpretations of what Jesus said.

nazz · Dec 10, 2013

Windwalker said:
Correction. You follow your interpretations of what Jesus said.

what else can I do? This response is based on interpreting your response to me. :shrug:

Windwalker · Dec 10, 2013

nazz said:
what else can I do? This response is based on interpreting your response to me.

My point is that what I hear Jesus saying about becoming as a child to see the kingdom of God, is not that we need to understand God as a sky parent. I don't believe it means we need to think like a child, hence why I quoted Paul. I suppose I should ask you, what does becoming as a child mean?

nazz · Dec 10, 2013

Windwalker said:
My point is that what I hear Jesus saying about becoming as a child to see the kingdom of God, is not that we need to understand God as a sky parent. I don't believe it means we need to think like a child, hence why I quoted Paul. I suppose I should ask you, what does becoming as a child mean?

I think it can mean many things: innocence, a sense of wonder, an openness to learn, even a certain naivety.

Windwalker · Dec 10, 2013

nazz said:
I think it can mean many things: innocence, a sense of wonder, an openness to learn, even a certain naivety.

I think I would add to that, trust. But the point was that I don't think it means we should imagine God like a child does, thinking mythologically, seeing God as threatening to spank us (or send us to hell), for being naughty, or answering prayers like getting a piece of candy from mom and dad for being a good boy or girl. That's childish thinking, imagining God as some parent figure handing our rewards and punishments that we have to please. Becoming that will actually prevent you from seeing the kingdom of God, for many reasons. To become an adult means seeing "face to face", not a childlike perspective.

George-ananda · Dec 10, 2013

9-10ths_Penguin said:
- generally very poor quality evidence,

That point is our old known irreconcilable difference of opinion, Mr. Penguin.

No sense in us debating again as we are 'irreconcilable'.

nazz · Dec 10, 2013

Windwalker said:
I think I would add to that, trust.

Yes, good addition.

But the point was that I don't think it means we should imagine God like a child does, thinking mythologically, seeing God as threatening to spank us (or send us to hell), for being naughty, or answering prayers like getting a piece of candy from mom and dad for being a good boy or girl. That's childish thinking, imagining God as some parent figure handing our rewards and punishments that we have to please. Becoming that will actually prevent you from seeing the kingdom of God, for many reasons. To become an adult means seeing "face to face", not a childlike perspective.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean we can't see God as our loving heavenly father nevertheless. Did Jesus not describe him as such?

Windwalker · Dec 10, 2013

nazz said:
Agreed. But that doesn't mean we can't see God as our loving heavenly father nevertheless.

That has value, I believe. It helps to learn to love ourselves.

9-10ths_Penguin · Dec 10, 2013

George-ananda said:
That point is our old known irreconcilable difference of opinion, Mr. Penguin.

No sense in us debating again as we are 'irreconcilable'.

Pick whatever level of quality for evidence that you like; do you really think that the evidence for an afterlife will be stronger than the evidence against?

George-ananda · Dec 10, 2013

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Pick whatever level of quality for evidence that you like; do you really think that the evidence for an afterlife will be stronger than the evidence against?

ABSOLUTELY stronger for. Not even close.

nazz · Dec 10, 2013

George-ananda said:
ABSOLUTELY stronger for. Not even close.

I'm staying out of this one--for a change

Quintessence · Dec 10, 2013

George-ananda said:
ABSOLUTELY stronger for. Not even close.

I agree, but largely because I'm not sure there even is any evidence against the idea.

Sha'irullah · Dec 11, 2013

nilsz said:
I also cannot help but think that there are malignant motivations behind some of the stances of religion. Why must women be subject to men?

Hey I am all for male authority, except it has nothing to do with religion, quite the opposite really.

Why was the King chosen by God? Are the poor truly punished for their past lives? How can believers possibly reason about such positions? Unquestionable stances seem to justify oppression when nothing else will.

A religion can consist of anything and everything you said here is irrelevant. Hindus for example have a thousand different beliefs on core issues and they are associated with the least religious violence despite such drastic orthodoxies.

ChristineES · Dec 11, 2013

Windwalker said:
I think I would add to that, trust. But the point was that I don't think it means we should imagine God like a child does, thinking mythologically, seeing God as threatening to spank us (or send us to hell), for being naughty, or answering prayers like getting a piece of candy from mom and dad for being a good boy or girl. That's childish thinking, imagining God as some parent figure handing our rewards and punishments that we have to please. Becoming that will actually prevent you from seeing the kingdom of God, for many reasons. To become an adult means seeing "face to face", not a childlike perspective.

Jesus said for us to humble ourselves like children.

Matthew 18:4 Therefore whoever shall humble himself like this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.

Windwalker · Dec 11, 2013

ChristineES said:
Jesus said for us to humble ourselves like children.

Matthew 18:4 Therefore whoever shall humble himself like this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.

A child, aside from those who are bullies, is not driven by ego compensation needs seeking power over others. There are many aspects to of a child that become lost in our entrance into the adult world as well, that is good to rediscover in ourselves. But becoming immature is not the qualities to seek after, being needy and dependent as an adult is a regressive quality, not a natural or normal stage of childhood development.

In moving to the next stage of adult development, we can regain what often got suppressed, such as natural trust. We shut down those purer qualities we had a child through our experiences as an adult. And as we do this, we cannot see or enter into that Freedom as an adult. You cannot see the kingdom of God, even though it is always there.

My Problems with Religion

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Sees

Dragonslayer

nazz

Doubting Thomas

Windwalker

Veteran Member

nazz

Doubting Thomas

Windwalker

Veteran Member

nazz

Doubting Thomas

Windwalker

Veteran Member

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

nazz

Doubting Thomas

Windwalker

Veteran Member

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

nazz

Doubting Thomas

Quintessence

Consults with Trees

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة

ChristineES

Tiggerism

Windwalker

Veteran Member