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Does omnipotence not imply infinite power?

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Having this debate in another thread. I think it does. Curious what others think.

Also does omniscience not imply infinite knowledge and omnipresence imply infinite presence?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Having this debate in another thread. I think it does. Curious what others think.

Also does omniscience not imply infinite knowledge and omnipresence imply infinite presence?
That's pretty much how I sees 'em. :shrug:
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I think it most certainly does unless we scrap the words... Some people's loophole in personal theology is that it doesn't dictate the use of such powers by just having them.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Having this debate in another thread. I think it does. Curious what others think.

Also does omniscience not imply infinite knowledge and omnipresence imply infinite presence?


Omnipotent and Omniscience seem to be a locality and limited knowledge to some.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The terms carry a very different meaning from the standpoint of polytheistic theology, if such terms are used there at all (and they tend not to be). To the polytheist, a deity can be omnipotent with respect to the domains or spheres of influence it is responsible for. I tend to reserve omni- descriptors for gods whose domains or spheres of influence are global or universal. The gods of local aspects I do not use that designation for.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Having this debate in another thread. I think it does. Curious what others think.

Also does omniscience not imply infinite knowledge and omnipresence imply infinite presence?

That's what the dictionary says.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The map is not the territory and words blur under the microscope.

So, note:
There is a distinction between:
  • inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
  • total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures. John Calvin, among other theologians of the 16th century, comfortable with the definition of God as being omniscient in the total sense, in order for worthy beings' abilities to choose freely, embraced the doctrine of predestination. [source]
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
"having complete or unlimited power"

According to Merriam Webster the definition given does not imply infinite. It is without limit but the usage of infinite also implies time. The role of time and power do not correlate.

If you are all powerful(such as a god) then the role of time is meaningless considering that a demiurge brought time into existence.

Just add the 2 words together.... omni/all + potent/power = all powerful. Colloquialisms will be of no aid.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I can wrap my head around the concept of inherent omniscience. But I think total omniscience is logically impossible.
The issue posed by the OP is not what you can wrap your head around but, rather, what the term 'omniscience' might legitimately connote.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Having this debate in another thread. I think it does. Curious what others think.

Also does omniscience not imply infinite knowledge and omnipresence imply infinite presence?

omnipotence is power
omniscience is knowledge

omnipresence is - not a biblical teaching. its innacurate
How could God be present everywhere at the same time? The bible says he has a place where he resides, and so he could not be at any other place at the same time. Thus we read at 1 Kings 8:43 that the heavens are God’s “established place of dwelling.” Also, we are told at Hebrews 9:24 that “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
omnipotence is power
omniscience is knowledge

omnipresence is - not a biblical teaching. its innacurate
How could God be present everywhere at the same time? The bible says he has a place where he resides, and so he could not be at any other place at the same time. Thus we read at 1 Kings 8:43 that the heavens are God’s “established place of dwelling.” Also, we are told at Hebrews 9:24 that “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”

Where was God before it created heaven? "In the beginning God created heaven."
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
"having complete or unlimited power"

According to Merriam Webster the definition given does not imply infinite. It is without limit but the usage of infinite also implies time. The role of time and power do not correlate.

If you are all powerful(such as a god) then the role of time is meaningless considering that a demiurge brought time into existence.

Just add the 2 words together.... omni/all + potent/power = all powerful. Colloquialisms will be of no aid.

Once again if one asserts that power itself has finite limits then it does follow that an omnipotent being would simply possess any power which exists and not infinite power. I just don't know why would make that initial assertion.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Where was God before it created heaven? "In the beginning God created heaven."

I would say he was in a different dimension... the spiritual dimension

Our universe is a physical dimension.

The bibles use of the word heaven in genesis is the sky where birds are said to fly. But the heavens where God resides are not in our sky...its somewhere metaphysical for the bible says that a person with flesh and blood cannot enter the heavens.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
The issue posed by the OP is not what you can wrap your head around but, rather, what the term 'omniscience' might legitimately connote.

Since I authored the OP I clearly understand that ;) But you offered two possibilities upon which I stated my opinion :p
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
I would say he was in a different dimension... the spiritual dimension

Our universe is a physical dimension.

The bibles use of the word heaven in genesis is the sky where birds are said to fly. But the heavens where God resides are not in our sky...its somewhere metaphysical for the bible says that a person with flesh and blood cannot enter the heavens.

Well provide a map.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Once again if one asserts that power itself has finite limits then it does follow that an omnipotent being would simply possess any power which exists and not infinite power. I just don't know why would make that initial assertion.

Omnipotence is relative kiddo, I keep saying this. I am applying omnipotence in relation to the universe and god, that's it.

God is omnipotent on the basis of his actions towards the universe. Nobody can have infinite power because power is not infinite nor capable of it, you cannot be powerful before there is nothing. Power behaves much like a verb, without causality there is no power.

If I existed in the state of nothing(logical absurdity) then how can I be omnipotent? I have done nothing nor have I expressed any sort of power. No causality then no power.

Infinity implies the nonexistence of a start or finish and power must have a start.

Let's use a Comic Book analogy based off Jack Kirby's New God and the Universal Expression of Energy.

Energy and power can be synonymous to a certain degree here since both are based upon causality. How can anything be powerful before existence? If there is no "Expression"(causality) there is no power. Power can only be eternal meaning it has a starting point that extends forever.

Eternal comes from word aevum which means "age", this means that something is constantly aging. Infinite though has no aging process since it is a loop, no beginning nor an end.

Power is based upon causality and if you say "infinitely powerful" you mean without power since infinite and nothing are ironically equivalent. Without a starting or ending point you cannot get yourself anywhere at all in relation to anything.

Just like the Apokolyptians flying around beating Kal-el to a bloody pulp, they have no power until it is expressed. The "source" is not the source of anything until it expresses something. The Big Bang is no different than this since the Big Bang must have created something or expressed something for it to be declared the power(expression/causality) of natural existence.

You cannot declare yourself all-powerful without expressing it and if you say that something has been infinitely expressing power then it falls into an infinite regress.

Omni means all and without limit but it does not imply anything in regards to where, when or how. Infinite on the other hand does.

God is all powerful not infinitely powerful which is why I have no found infinite listed in omnipotent so far as of yet. The word unlimited is almost always used.
 
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nazz

Doubting Thomas
Omnipotence is relative kiddo

There is something deeply disconcerting hearing the term "kiddo" applied to man in his late 50's. Unless you are about 80 or 90 yourself?

As for the rest of your post I'm sure it must make some sense to you but I could not make heads or tails of it. But I will address this part:

God is all powerful not infinitely powerful which is why I have no found infinite listed in omnipotent so far as of yet. The word unlimited is almost always used.
un·lim·it·ed (
ubreve.gif
n-l
ibreve.gif
m
prime.gif
ibreve.gif
-t
ibreve.gif
d) adj.

1.
Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It certainly makes sense from a more panentheistic perspective. If God is all, if God is life, if God is Being, itself, then God knows all that there exists to know. God is everywhere there is existence. God is all-powerful, because God is all power. The concepts work when we're speaking of God as universal, but not so much when we speak of God as particular.
 
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