Yahweh claimed to have created evil

Brickjectivity · Dec 11, 2013

This single verse is part of a passage about the Persian king, Cyrus, who rebuilt Jerusalem, no charge. Isaiah goes on to say that the L-rd will make Cyrus way's straight -- another way of saying he will convert Cyrus, thus making Cyrus prosperous so that his former enemies will make peace and seek his patronage. (Isaiah 45:13-14). Cyrus will (probably in thanks for his new prosperity) rebuild Jerusalem for free, no charge, willingly. You can take it as either a miraculous prediction or as a historical explanation for why Cyrus rebuilt Jerusalem, no-charge.

To pretend to interpret Isaiah 47 verse 7 (by itself!) without bothering even to think about Deuteronomy and how it relates to the Pentateuch, and also not to even bother thinking about the story in context, it is pathetically irresponsible. Cyrus is converted. That is what the story is about partially. The prosperity and calamity is an allusion to the blessing and calamities central to the book Deuteronomy -- a book far more important than Isaiah -- listing the calamities that lawlessness brings. Isaiah was never expected to be read by someone ignorant of Deuteronomy. Why start a thread about an isolated verse without even considering the story its in?

Totally agree with those who said that the single, isolated, out of context verse being discussed is about 'calamity' not 'evil'.

#H.E.B.Knowledge · Dec 11, 2013

rusra02 said:
This false claim that ra always means moral badness comes up with some frequency here in RF. Ra is rendered "ugly" and "ill-favored" at Genesis 41:3.
"Devastating" and "baleful" at Deuteronomy 6:22, etc. Evil is not always the same as moral badness. The calamities brought on wicked people are not morally wrong; for example, God's punishment of death for sin. Thus, God rightly brings evil upon those deserving such calamity.

The scripture clearly states that God CREATED darkness and evil. Which makes sense since people believe God to be omnipotent. He has ALL power, right? But if God didn't create the bad or evil or even sin, then who did? And does that take away from him being ALL powerful if someone else created the bad? I believe without the bad or evil, we wouldn't know what good is.

Brickjectivity · Dec 11, 2013

HEB said:
The scripture clearly states that God CREATED darkness and evil. Which makes sense since people believe God to be omnipotent. He has ALL power, right? But if God didn't create the bad or evil or even sin, then who did? And does that take away from him being ALL powerful if someone else created the bad? I believe without the bad or evil, we wouldn't know what good is.

As Jayhawker Soule already translated, it doesn't clearly state that. As the context indicates it doesn't mean that, either. Seriously its not saying what you claim.

nazz · Dec 11, 2013

Monk Of Reason said:
It takes existence of its own? So it was created without god? Yes or no?

If the manufacturer had untold and omnipotent power then yes. Its more accurate to give a drug abuser drugs and say your not liable rather than the car manufacturer.

I'm confusing things by playing devil's advocate for a position I do not personally hold. I do not believe omnipotence is possible nor do I necessarily believe anything was created. If this universe was created it was not designed to be free of suffering.

nazz · Dec 11, 2013

Ouroboros said:
Not quite the same. God made humans with the flaw, the ability to sin and do evil. God could have plugged that bug in the system, but didn't. He would have known it was there since he's omniscient.

It's more like a car manufacturer knows about a construction flaw that potentially could kill the people in the car. And yes, car manufacturers get sued and lose all the time. Was it Ford that had that screw that was pointing into the gas tank and they knew it could cause a spark and ignite the tank? They let it go until one day... someone died. Ooops!

Put it this way. Let's say you have a factory owner. He built the factory. He intentionally used poor building material. He knows that the building can collapse any minute and kill everyone in it. Is he guilty of intentional neglect and endangerment? Yes. I would think so.

God created (supposedly) humans with the ability to sin and do evil. And God did so on purpose because he wanted humans to choose between good and evil. So evil serves a purpose for the choice to be possible. God wanted it that way (presumably).

The alternative is that God didn't know evil would come about. Perhaps God isn't prescient? Maybe God didn't foresee evil at all, but it came as a surprise?

Or... good and evil is part of God's everlasting nature. Yin, yang, both in the same being. The overarching good, the greater good here is existence, experience, and living. Not individual happiness or good. What is good to me isn't good to someone else. God's good isn't about my good. Different kinds of good. God's good is to create black holes and stars and galaxies so large that our mind explodes just thinking about it. God's good is to be, exist, and live.

As I explained above I am just playing devil's advocate for a position I do not hold to be true. I am actually in agreement with those who say an omnipotent deity would not be omnibenevolent as evidenced by the existence of suffering. I don't believe in omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence.

Ouroboros · Dec 11, 2013

nazz said:
I'm confusing things by playing devil's advocate for a position I do not personally hold.

You too? I do that sometimes too, and it not only confuses other people but myself as well.

I do not believe omnipotence is possible nor do I necessarily believe anything was created. If this universe was created it was not designed to be free of suffering.

That's what I thought, so you did successfully confused me. LOL!

Ouroboros · Dec 11, 2013

nazz said:
As I explained above I am just playing devil's advocate for a position I do not hold to be true. I am actually in agreement with those who say an omnipotent deity would not be omnibenevolent as evidenced by the existence of suffering. I don't believe in omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence.

I tell you! D*mn you!!!

I've done the same thing so friggin' many times.

nazz · Dec 11, 2013

Ouroboros said:
I tell you! D*mn you!!!

I've done the same thing so friggin' many times.

I've thought of calling myself a Contrarian but I'm not quite consistent enough to claim that title.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 11, 2013

Pegg said:
Jayhawker Soule said:

Pegg said:

There have only been 60 odd generations of humans on the earth since Adam was created.

Click to expand...

This is truly ignorance of almost biblical proportions.

Click to expand...

if 1 generation spans 100 years, then yes, 60x100 = 6,000

Setting aside for the time being the extreme willful ignorance demonstrated by YEC timelines, you might wish to consider

Familial generation

A familial generation is a group of humans constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor. In developed nations the average familial generation length is in the high 20s and has even reached 30 years in some nations. Factors such as greater industrialisation and demand for cheap female labour, urbanisation, delayed first pregnancy and a greater uncertainty in relationship stability have all contributed to the increase of the generation length from the late 18th century to the present. These changes can be attributed to both societal level factors, such as GDP and state policy, and related individual level variables, particularly a woman's educational attainment. Conversely, generation length has changed little and remains in the low 20s in less developed nations. [source]

But perhaps you should be congratulated for your ability to make the silly even sillier.

Pegg · Dec 11, 2013

Jayhawker Soule said:
Setting aside for the time being the extreme willful ignorance demonstrated by YEC timelines, you might wish to consider

But perhaps you should be congratulated for your ability to make the silly even sillier.

the creation of Adam as nothing to do with the earths creation or its timeline.

The earth was already here.... Adam was made from the 'dust of the ground' so obviously his creation doesnt mean the beginning of the earths creation.

just saying.

Astravalon · Dec 11, 2013

If one believes that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then one
doesn't even need to look to that Isaiah verse, or to the Correct
Interpretation thereof, to conclude that evil along with
everything else in existence comes from Him.

That isn't said to blame Him; it's (apparently) a necessary part of
what makes up the widest spectrum of experiences this world
contains. But ultimately, He is responsible (with power comes
responsibility) for its existence.

No digging through dusty piles of conflicting commentaries and
ancient texts needed in order to come to that conclusion.

Now, if one doesn't believe God is all-powerful and all-knowing, well
then, that's a whole 'nother ball o' wax.

-

Skwim · Dec 11, 2013

Iridescence said:
If one believes that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then one
doesn't even need to look to that Isaiah verse, or to the Correct
Interpretation thereof, to conclude that evil along with
everything else in existence comes from Him.

That isn't said to blame Him; it's (apparently) a necessary part of
what makes up the widest spectrum of experiences this world
contains. But ultimately, He is responsible (with power comes
responsibility) for its existence.

No digging through dusty piles of conflicting commentaries and
ancient texts needed in order to come to that conclusion.

Now, if one doesn't believe God is all-powerful and all-knowing, well
then, that's a whole 'nother ball o' wax.
-

And that's pretty much how the world of the Christian god falls into place. God being the all-powerful ruler has the ability to allow or disallow anything he want's. So if anything exists it's because that's the way he wants the world to be. Got people doing good things? It's because god allows them to do as much. Got people doing evil things? It's because god allows them to do as much.

Monk Of Reason · Dec 11, 2013

nazz said:
I'm confusing things by playing devil's advocate for a position I do not personally hold. I do not believe omnipotence is possible nor do I necessarily believe anything was created. If this universe was created it was not designed to be free of suffering.

Ah. Okay. well the main question has been "does evil exist" and every other thread ever has been a resounding "yes" from the theistic position (especially christians) and suddenly now they are saying it "doesn't" exist when I ask if god made it.

Brickjectivity · Dec 11, 2013

Nazz to Monk of Reason said:
I'm not arguing that God is not ultimately responsible if God created beings with the capacity to commit evil. My use of "emergent property" was somewhat TIC as it is a favorite word used by atheists.

Monk of Reason to Nazz said:
Well the impasse we seem to have come to is "does evil exist or doesn't it?"

I understand where you are coming from. Though I had never thought of emergent property being an atheist word. I just thought you were trying to describe it (as it adequately does so). But its still a moot point. If it exists at all god created it. Well at least by the argument that people use that he is creator of all things.

Monk of Reason to Nazz said:
Ah. Okay. well the main question has been "does evil exist" and every other thread ever has been a resounding "yes" from the theistic position (especially christians) and suddenly now they are saying it "doesn't" exist when I ask if god made it.

Just want to comment that the apparent contradiction comes from taking things literally as well as from ignoring scholarship. Mostly the contradiction comes from taking Genesis literally as if it were a description of the beginning of the physical world. Obviously if Genesis is the story of the creation of the physical universe, then God invented evil. Otherwise God didn't and God invented only good things. The problem that we run into when discussing Isaiah 47:7 is the stubborn insistence that Genesis is literally a description of creation of all things. ---> God creates evil ---> but God 'Couldn't have' ---> but God did --> recursive problem

Ouroboros · Dec 11, 2013

Monk Of Reason said:
Ah. Okay. well the main question has been "does evil exist" and every other thread ever has been a resounding "yes" from the theistic position (especially christians) and suddenly now they are saying it "doesn't" exist when I ask if god made it.

Exactly.

And if you ask the evidence for God, then you'll hear that it's because the world is perfect and look designed... but then you get to this thread and realize that the world is not perfect (sin) and not all things are designed by God (evil).

Yadon · Dec 11, 2013

Jayhawker Soule said:
Think infantile Dunning-Kruger effect. I guess that's why we have an ignore list ...

He actually offered information and evidence, why are you ignoring that instead of looking at it or at least explaining why you don't accept it? You said something about it doesn’t matter that some people translate it like that, but my understanding is he was more getting at that people do translate it that way so there must be a reason why (which is one I am curious about myself).

Pegg · Dec 11, 2013

Monk Of Reason said:
Ah. Okay. well the main question has been "does evil exist" and every other thread ever has been a resounding "yes" from the theistic position (especially christians) and suddenly now they are saying it "doesn't" exist when I ask if god made it.

you can't make evil... you can only DO evil.

I keep saying that evil is not a thing...its an 'action'.

Yadon · Dec 11, 2013

Pegg said:
you can't make evil... you can only DO evil.

I keep saying that evil is not a thing...its an 'action'.

For an action to exist the mechanisms that make it possible must be created.

God would of inherently created everything, including those mechanisms.

Unless you want to argue that God didn't create everything?

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 11, 2013

Yadon said:
He actually offered information and evidence, ...

That you think so pretty much says all that needs to be said.

Yadon · Dec 11, 2013

Jayhawker Soule said:
That you think so pretty much says all that needs to be said.

You can ***staff edit*** address the quote from Rabbi Yaakov Feldman in this post: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-claimed-have-created-evil-5.html#post3594164

I even retracted my earlier statement about it always meaning "evil" like you asked when I was showed I was wrong and you totally ignored it. You seriously seem like you don't care for the truth but rather being right and superior to others.

Maybe it surprises you but I'm actually interested in learning and if you are really as right as you claim to be then it should be no problem addressing that post. You offered another opinion and gave evidence for it and someone else is giving evidence from the other side. I'm being fair and wanting to hear your opinion on this new evidence so that I know both sides of it, since I've realized that it's possible I've not gotten the entire picture.

Yahweh claimed to have created evil

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