Omnipotent Paradox and the Universe

How does god or one that has some type of omni property fit into an infinite universe: a universe that continues on forever and ever with no true beginning or end? To give you an idea of what I’m talking about you can look at a 2D fractal that contains infinite sets and basically continues on forever. When thinking about the large scale of the universe as we know it all the way down to subatomic particles.

Here is a video where you can watch the first minute or two to get a better understanding of the topic.

[youtube]kkWXK4BZj7U[/youtube]

I think this brings up a question of where does god fit into this equation if god exists. It also bring up an old question of “Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even god could not lift?”

Only, to rephrase it so it conforms to the topic at hand, “Could an omnipotent being create a universe too big for god to have any control over?”

One may first wish to ask if "control" is a true phenomenon or simply an illusion.

At any rate, by the conventional understanding of omnipotent, something that is omnipotent, by definition, cannot lack absolute power or control. In my mind, the only way to reconcile omnipotence is with an immanent god-concept that doesn't separate "creators" from "creations." In this way, the gods are literally the various forces of reality and taken in sum, are omnipotent even though individually they would not be.

Slapstick said:

How does god or one that has some type of omni property fit into an infinite universe: a universe that continues on forever and ever with no true beginning or end? To give you an idea of what I’m talking about you can look at a 2D fractal that contains infinite sets and basically continues on forever. When thinking about the large scale of the universe as we know it all the way down to subatomic particles.

Here is a video where you can watch the first minute or two to get a better understanding of the topic.

I think this brings up a question of where does god fit into this equation if god exists. It also bring up an old question of “Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even god could not lift?”

Only, to rephrase it so it conforms to the topic at hand, “Could an omnipotent being create a universe too big for god to have any control over?”

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Not if he wants to keep his job.

Very good question. In my opinion, I believe that omnipotent being can not create a universe too big for god to have any control over IF that being is the whole universe, ITSELF. To make it more clear, think about us and our bodies. Our bodies are made up of billions of cells that form mulitple organs, tissues, etc to create 1 sole body. Just like we can control certain aspects of our body voluntary, there are also some parts that just do their jobs without us even thinking twice about it, ex. how our blood cells take in oxygen. We know that the body does this but we can't control it. Just cause our bodies does this process on its own, doesn't mean that we are not in control of our bodies. I think the same can be said about The Source, or an omnipotent being.

Omnipotence is a sort of over inflated word when it is used in application to god. A separate entity can indeed create a rock to big for it to lift but a pantheistic or panentheistic being cannot do this. It does not deny omnipotence it just means that god is by definition the MOST superior entity.

If god cannot create a rock too big this is not a paradox as the definition of omnipotence is being inflated to incorporate absurdities not native to it. Omnipotence and superiority go hand in hand and a superior being cannot deny itself.

My personal belief is that God doesn't need to be omnipotent in a truly unbound sense to be who He is. I believe that He is omnipotent in the sense that the magnitude of a task is no obstacle to Him. It's the kind of task that matters. I don't think He can contradict logic (that causes too many problems) nor contradict His own character (can't exactly do something against His own will).

Slapstick said:

How does god or one that has some type of omni property fit into an infinite universe: a universe that continues on forever and ever with no true beginning or end? To give you an idea of what I’m talking about you can look at a 2D fractal that contains infinite sets and basically continues on forever. When thinking about the large scale of the universe as we know it all the way down to subatomic particles.

Here is a video where you can watch the first minute or two to get a better understanding of the topic.

[youtube]kkWXK4BZj7U[/youtube]

I think this brings up a question of where does god fit into this equation if god exists. It also bring up an old question of “Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even god could not lift?”

Only, to rephrase it so it conforms to the topic at hand, “Could an omnipotent being create a universe too big for god to have any control over?”

Click to expand...

An omni-anything is fraught with logical pardoxes. You cannot encompass infinity by definition.

nazz said:

An omni-anything is fraught with logical pardoxes. You cannot encompass infinity by definition.

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I hope you are not saying this in regards to the definition of omnipotent or else it is a sure sign you did not do well in English studies. Omni does not mean infinite nor does omnipotence imply encompassing infinite. It literally means all-powerful.

I recommend you to always search the Latin and Greek etymologies of a word before adding an unfounded definement that does not apply.

Sterling Archer said:

I hope you are not saying this in regards to the definition of omnipotent or else it is a sure sign you did not do well in English studies. Omni does not mean infinite nor does omnipotence imply encompassing infinite. It literally means all-powerful.

I recommend you to always search the Latin and Greek etymologies of a word before adding an unfounded definement that does not apply.

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Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. Infinite power, infinite knowledge, infinite presence. Or if you prefer, unlimited. Unless you think that power, knowledge, and presence have defined limits?

nazz said:

Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. Infinite power, infinite knowledge, infinite presence. Or if you prefer, unlimited. Unless you think that power, knowledge, and presence have defined limits?

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Again, omni and infinite are not equal words.

So is an omnidirectional microphone a infinite directional microphone? You are making masisve blunders here and sprinkles laughable wordplay on top

Sterling Archer said:

Again, omni and infinite are not equal words.

So is an omnidirectional microphone a infinite directional microphone? You are making masisve blunders here and sprinkles laughable wordplay on top

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An omnidirectional microphone picks up audio in all directions; those directions could be infinitely subdivided.

So an omnipotent deity would not have infinite power? Its power would be limited?

An omniscient deity would not have infinite knowledge? It's knowledge would be limited?

An omnipresent deity would not occupy infinite space? Its presence would be limited?

Is that what you are saying?

If so then what would those words imply to you?

nazz said:

An omnidirectional microphone picks up audio in all directions; those directions could be infinitely subdivided.

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nowhere in omni is division implied. You are now making up things.

So an omnipotent deity would not have infinite power? Its power would be limited?

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No, power is only limited to things that exist, so all things in existent are under the sole power of 1 entity which is god.

That is divine omnipotence. Infinite has no place in this as it is not the definition of omni.

An omniscient deity would not have infinite knowledge? It's knowledge would be limited?

An omnipresent deity would not occupy infinite space? Its presence would be limited?

Is that what you are saying?

If so then what would those words imply to you?

Click to expand...

The words imply nothing because you are asserting a definition which is not there.

Infinitus and omnis are not the same thing no matter how you spin it. I recommend you to seriously understand the words you are using because I will not play semantics as it goes against 1 of 2 debating policies I have.

"Omni-anything" is only relative to something in a subset and infinite is only relative to the nature of the subset. Given that the subset(our universe) is not infinite then omnipotence can be applicable to it. There is no such thing as infinite power since infinite power is a ludicrous concept as you cannot have power before existence since it is like being king of nothing. Power is a matter of causality not a state of nothing.

You keep asserting that omni is the same as infinity because you are making a straw-man argument and you have nothing to argue against. This is intellectual dishonesty and is a fallacy for yourself not for anyone else.

There is no infinity in something that is not infinity the same where that black and white are not the same.

Sterling Archer said:

You keep asserting that omni is the same as infinity because you are making a straw-man argument and you have nothing to argue against. This is intellectual dishonesty and is a fallacy for yourself not for anyone else.

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I am well aware what the prefix "omni" means and never argued it means "infinite". It simply follows from it. You are the first person I have encountered who thought omnipotence does not imply infinite power. This means for an omnipotent deity there are certain things it cannot do and that is a contradiction. If there is something that deity can't do then that deity is not "all powerful".

So do you also think knowledge has finite limits? So for example if a human being were given an indefinite amount of time to gather all possible knowledge they would complete the task?

nazz said:

I am well aware what the prefix "omni" means and never argued it means "infinite". It simply follows from it. You are the first person I have encountered who thought omnipotence does not imply infinite power.

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People seem to really misinterpret the word infinite and absolute a lot. Colloquialism are such a hassle.

People who say that omnipotent is infinite power are also the same ones who confuse theory with hypothesis.

This means for an omnipotent deity there are certain things it cannot do and that is a contradiction. If there is something that deity can't do then that deity is not "all powerful".

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Omni means all and is only relevant to what "all" is. God is omnipotent only in basis to the universe you are referring to. Omnipotence is only relative to effect on the basis of existence.

God cannot create a rock too big for itself because omnipotence is a title as well as a causality. An omnipotent being cannot deny itself. This does not cancel it's omnipotence.

So do you also think knowledge has finite limits?

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Knowledge does not have a direction so it cannot be finite since no one knows the end of knowledge, natural existence is not the same though since it has laws which govern it.
You can apply infinity or finite on something that is not governed and removes itself from comprehension of it's finality. The universe is comprehensible as it has laws and rules that it abides by so it can be comprehended from the start point of 1 and perpetually expand itself to any desired number or effect.

Knowledge is not like this since it will chase after the perpetual changes of effect.

So for example if a human being were given an indefinite amount of time to gather all possible knowledge they would complete the task?

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They could not because knowledge cannot end thanks to something called eternity. Knowledge is relative to existence and due to the fact that existence as far as we know it is eternal it cannot be comprehended to the point that it has an end.

You are using a multitude of straw-men here still. It is only upsetting me that you defeat your arguments.

The problem I see is in ascribing anthropomorphic attributes to God, using our own extremely limited frame of reference. If God is not a thing, but rather the basis of all that exists, then existence is an emanation, not a creation of God. The sun or a fire do not create heat and light, but heat and light emanate from them. Heat and light are properties of the sun and fire; existence is a property of God. But this is just my view.

Sterling Archer said:

People seem to really misinterpret the word infinite and absolute a lot. Colloquialism are such a hassle.

People who say that omnipotent is infinite power are also the same ones who confuse theory with hypothesis.

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Is that so?

Here's a tip. Your smug, condescending, know-it-all attitude does not promote good dialogue. Do with that what you want.

Omni means all and is only relevant to what "all" is. God is omnipotent only in basis to the universe you are referring to. Omnipotence is only relative to effect on the basis of existence.

God cannot create a rock too big for itself because omnipotence is a title as well as a causality. An omnipotent being cannot deny itself. This does not cancel it's omnipotence.

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What is that double string of nonsense supposed to mean?

Knowledge does not have a direction so it cannot be finite since no one knows the end of knowledge, natural existence is not the same though since it has laws which govern it.

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Ah, so knowledge is infinite? But somehow in your view an omniscient being does not possess infinite knowledge. Just all knowledge. Got it.

Jainarayan said:

The problem I see is in ascribing anthropomorphic attributes to God, using our own extremely limited frame of reference. If God is not a thing, but rather the basis of all that exists, then existence is an emanation, not a creation of God. The sun or a fire do not create heat and light, but heat and light emanate from them. Heat and light are properties of the sun and fire; existence is a property of God. But this is just my view.

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And not a bad view. It's consistent with naturalistic panentheism too. I'll remember the word "emanate". That fits well.

Ouroboros said:

And not a bad view. It's consistent with naturalistic panentheism too. I'll remember the word "emanate". That fits well.

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Emanation rather than creation is a Gnostic concept as well.

nazz said:

Emanation rather than creation is a Gnostic concept as well.

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Ah. Didn't know that.

Emanation is a bit like emergence, I think.

Ouroboros said:

Ah. Didn't know that.

Emanation is a bit like emergence, I think.

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kinda, sorta, I guess