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Craig and Hitchens. A moral God?

Koldo

Outstanding Member
:facepalm:

Natural occurrences are not "evil". They are just parts of the natural world. Humans may not like them when they interfere with our lives in a negative way or kill us but they're morally neutral.

The planet isn't deciding "oh, I'm going to destroy these houses and kill these people because I feel like it". It's just the normal processes of the planet and humans are in the way at times. Besides, many of those natural acts of destruction are good for nature on this planet.

Natural evil is a common way to refer to them in these debates.
It is pretty standard, actually.

Whether they are moral is rather secondary, since the main point is the suffering they can bring up.

Every living thing has the possibly to experience suffering. Non-humans aren't any different in that regard.

I don't think you know what free will is. Free will is the ability to make rational choices. So your question is moot, and silly.

In other words, you don't think animals have free will, correct?

In that case, why do they suffer? And why does god allow them to harm us? An omnibenevolent god would want to minimize suffering and evil.



You didn't reply to my questions regarding limitations. That would be very welcome to further delve into this subject.

While at that, I will add another question on the top of those.
You said that this world is a work in progress. What happens when it is complete? Will we live in a world where free will exists without any suffering and evil ? Or is it never going to be complete?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Natural evil is a common way to refer to them in these debates.
It is pretty standard, actually.

Whether they are moral is rather secondary, since the main point is the suffering they can bring up.

I don't care. Those are only "evil" from a human perspective. I don't view them as such. It's not like nature is "out to get us". It's just part of the natural functioning of the planet.

In other words, you don't think animals have free will, correct?

As in, are animals capable of making rational choices informed by ethics or morality? I don't know. That's for science to figure out. Maybe or maybe not, especially depending on the species.

In that case, why do they suffer? And why does god allow them to harm us?

Why are you asking me silly questions? They suffer because they're sentient beings in a world where suffering is a possiblity.

An omnibenevolent god would want to minimize suffering and evil.

OMNIPOTENCE AND DIVINE CHASTITY The teaching of the Catholic Church is that God is truly omnipotent, or all-powerful, but God’s use of power can never be contrary to the demands of perfect love.
“The omnipotence of God is not an arbitrary power, because God is Good… he cannot act against good, he cannot act against truth, love or freedom, because he himself is good, love, and true freedom; and therefore nothing he does can ever be in contrast with truth, love and freedom.” – (Pope Benedict XVI)
“God’s power is in no way arbitrary: ‘In God, power, essence, will, intellect, wisdom, and justice are all identical. Nothing therefore can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or wise intellect.’” – (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 271)
In divine chastity, God has truly given away all power that can be given away, and has kept for himself only those functions which cannot be delegated because they require infinite power. All finite power has been put into in the hands of creatures. Since this is a true giving, and not merely the appearance of gift, it follows that creatures now have a kind of power in the world that God does not have.


Throughout human history, the problem of evil has been argued: God has the power to prevent all evil; the knowledge of how to prevent it; and (being perfectly good) must have the desire to prevent it. Thus, if God existed, evil would not exist. This kind of reasoning does not consider that God is not morally free to do evil (that is to act in violation of love) in order to prevent the abuse of his gifts. God’s use of power can never be contrary to his love, and because he has given away all finite power in chaste self-donation, he is no longer directly able to control the events in the world when his gifts are abused –even though this abuse and the suffering caused by it is an infinite offense to him. Because of the chastity of God, the “gifts and call of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). Though he is omnipotent, the perfect outpouring of power and individual importance to created persons in divine chastity causes it to appear as if God is powerless or unresponsive in opposing evil. Consequently, many mistakenly conclude that God is somehow not fully opposed to evil – permitting it as a means to an end.
The Theodicy of Divine Chastity, Part I | NewApologetics.com


You didn't reply to my questions regarding limitations. That would be very welcome to further delve into this subject.

Because it has nothing to do with the subject. If you wish to fantasize about having superpowers, do it on your own time or make another thread about it.

While at that, I will add another question on the top of those.
You said that this world is a work in progress. What happens when it is complete? Will we live in a world where free will exists without any suffering and evil ? Or is it never going to be complete?

Haven't you ever read the Book of Revelation (for a poetic vision of it)? It is when Heaven and Earth become one, we become perfected in the body, death ceases to exist and we live eternally with God in harmony and unity, experiencing perfect love. Yes, there would still be free will since it is only through making a choice to follow God's will of love and selflessness that we could bring such a world about, with God's help.

No one knows when this will happen. It is a future stage of human evolution. We're not there yet, but some say that humanity is about to enter a new stage of consciousness.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I don't care. Those are only "evil" from a human perspective. I don't view them as such. It's not like nature is "out to get us". It's just part of the natural functioning of the planet.

That is not important. I mean, how you call them is not important.
It is only relevant they cause suffering in this world.
What is the justification for suffering caused by these?
Free will does not justify it.

As in, are animals capable of making rational choices informed by ethics or morality? I don't know. That's for science to figure out. Maybe or maybe not, especially depending on the species.

Why are you asking me silly questions? They suffer because they're sentient beings in a world where suffering is a possiblity.

It is not a silly question.
I am trying to figure out how you justify the suffering of creatures that don't have free will. As I have said, if God is omnibenevolent, he would want to minimize suffering, animal suffering included.

So, why wouldn't god create a separated world ( not meaning 'universe' here ) for animals so they don't have to suffer, and by consequence be unable to cause harm to free will agents?

Free will only justifies suffering on agents that have free will. Not on others.
( And even then it is problematic. )



''This kind of reasoning does not consider that God is not morally free to do evil (that is to act in violation of love) in order to prevent the abuse of his gifts. ''

God doesn't need to do moral evil to prevent the abuse of free will.

"God’s use of power can never be contrary to his love, and because he has given away all finite power in chaste self-donation, he is no longer directly able to control the events in the world when his gifts are abused –even though this abuse and the suffering caused by it is an infinite offense to him."

If God is not able to directly control the events in the world when his gifts are abused, then God is not omnipotent.

An omnipotent being has unlimited power. By definition, an omnipotent being is able to do absolutely anything, except for logical contradictions.




Because it has nothing to do with the subject. If you wish to fantasize about having superpowers, do it on your own time or make another thread about it.

It has everything to do with the subject.
We are talking about whether free will serves as a justification for suffering and evil on this world. So, it is important to explore whether this is the best world for free will ( for example, because if it is not, it wouldn't make sense to create it ), and whether a world with as much free will as this but without so much suffering and evil is possible.


Haven't you ever read the Book of Revelation (for a poetic vision of it)? It is when Heaven and Earth become one, we become perfected in the body, death ceases to exist and we live eternally with God in harmony and unity, experiencing perfect love. Yes, there would still be free will since it is only through making a choice to follow God's will of love and selflessness that we could bring such a world about, with God's help.

No one knows when this will happen. It is a future stage of human evolution. We're not there yet, but some say that humanity is about to enter a new stage of consciousness.

Is it impossible for God to do this by himself?
Does he need humans to make a particular choice in this particular world?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But that doesn't answer the problem of evil that exists now. Whatever is done is done, and even God cannot undo what has been done or change history. The contradiction stands.

Life is eternal but 'Problem of Evil' believers view things from the limited perspective that life begins at birth and ends at death.The natural illusion.

I try to look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

Plus Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be the way they are. Standard Problem of Evil proponents believe in this one life only so evil seems unfair and cruel in that limited perspective.

If all the dramas were removed, it would just be a static-state sameness. Nothing would propel us to question, advance and grow.

I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multidimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little speck and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Plus Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be the way they are. Standard Problem of Evil proponents believe in this one life only so evil seems unfair and cruel in that limited perspective.

So eastern thinkers might watch a crippled-from-birth begger being killed and eaten by dogs and think, "Well, I'm sure he caused his own troubles somehow -- in an earlier life."....???
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There's simply no universally agreed definition or explanation of exactly what karma is and is not within either Buddhism or Hinduism circles. The general belief is that our actions have consequences, but there's various disagreement as far as what this actually entails and what its scope is.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yikes.
I didn't realize how many Atheists would be offended by that quote,
I only used it to back up my point,
That blaming God for anything or applying human attributes to Him is ridiculous.

Rightio, I won't use it again.
Though I don't really see so much as to what is wrong with it,
I cannot deny that I feel a Godless life is a somewhat 'easier' life, With no one but yourself to be accountable to.

And as I recall, The quote did not say 'all' Atheists, But some. :shrug:

It has nothing to do with my atheism, but I feel I'm accountable to other people - friends, family, loved ones, society, and everyone else I share the planet with. Not always so "easy."
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There are those like that. However unless you really enjoy debate you won't find it entertaining to begin with. An hour of people going back and forth with no "clear" winner is pretty boring for most people. I think my favorite was when he teamed up with a famous British actor in a 2v2 debate on "Is the Catholic chruch a force of good in the world". There was a lot of burns and back handed remarks in that one that kept it interesting.

EDIT; And every time the old British Nun said the word "condoms" she winced a little. That was funny. I think hitchens picked up on it half way through and started bringing it up intentionally to make her uncomfortable.

That is my #1, all-time favourite debate. Hitchens and Stephen Frye were brilliant!

I noticed that about the nun and I'm pretty sure I was doing it too (and giggling a little)! :D
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
There's simply no universally agreed definition or explanation of exactly what karma is and is not within either Buddhism or Hinduism circles. The general belief is that our actions have consequences, but there's various disagreement as far as what this actually entails and what its scope is.

I think everyone agrees that our actions have consequences. I thought George was talking about removing the problem of evil somehow by arguing that we have caused our troubles by behaviors in earlier lives.

In other words, an indifferent God doesn't strike us with lightning out of the blue. Instead, we're struck by lightning because we have done something to deserve it -- in some earlier life.

But maybe I misread him.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
So you're okay if I compare you to fundies, since you're all theists anyway?
Phhhht.
It's exactly what ****** you off.

Despite what some might have you believe, or want to believe themselves, there is not some gulf in morality between theists and non-theists. But some theists might delude themselves that tokenism makes up for a life not lived according to the principals of the religion they purport to follow.

I stand by my earlier comment. That quote is small-minded and lacks understanding. Keep the first sentence, and it actually has value. The last sentence is a cheap shot, and lacks substance.

I get your point--and agree--yet I have heard many atheists say how free they feel after letting go of notions of being accountable to a deity and its rules.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Like I said a while back,
This is only true if your perspective of suffering is 'suffering is bad'
When looking at it from a bigger picture point of view, Suffering is what makes us who we are. It is what gives us choice, It is what teaches us.

Would you say that to a little girl repeatedly raped by her father? Would you say that to a child slowly dying of starvation? Would you say that to a person who lay dying of cancer whose body is wracked with intense pain? What about a fawn who is burned alive in a forest fire? What good thing did it learn?

Yes, suffering can be instructive. But to use that as a justification for its existence trivializes it in a most egregious manner.
 
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nazz

Doubting Thomas
See, Without God, That is your perspective.
With God, It's something else entirely.
Nothing is truly bad, Everything is simply more, A step, A path.

Don't be angry or disheartened, There is a reason for everything, Just because you are unaware right now, Doesn't mean there isn't something greater going on :)

I know it's hard to see it, Because you're looking with Godless eyes, And we won't be able to agree until you understand and experience God, I know some would say that seems arrogant, But all I'm saying is that you and I have different perspectives.

Excuse me, but I am a theist and I agree with the atheist assessment of this situation. They are being truthful about it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think everyone agrees that our actions have consequences. I thought George was talking about removing the problem of evil somehow by arguing that we have caused our troubles by behaviors in earlier lives.

In other words, an indifferent God doesn't strike us with lightning out of the blue. Instead, we're struck by lightning because we have done something to deserve it -- in some earlier life.

But maybe I misread him.

Thanks for clarifying this as I only glanced at this thread.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I think in terms of logic the argument is that an omnipotent God is capable of creating a world where free will is exercised without suffering, where lessons can be learned without having to suffer, where one can grow stronger without having to have suffered. This is by definition not the best that God could do, even if we cannot see otherwise.

But some lessons can only be learned from suffering. I can't really learn that I should not put my hand on a hot stove unless I feel the pain that results from that. Similarly I can't learn that bad moral choices have negative consequences unless I experience them.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
The omnipotence of God is not an arbitrary power, because God is Good… he cannot act...

I'm sorry but anytime you put together the words "God cannot" you basically negate omnipotence. This is arguing that God cannot act in a way contrary to his own nature. That's not omnipotence then.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So eastern thinkers might watch a crippled-from-birth begger being killed and eaten by dogs and think, "Well, I'm sure he caused his own troubles somehow -- in an earlier life."....???

No. Eastern thinkers stress compassion for all. I'm saying we as individual humans do not always know the 'why' and it may or may not be related to a past life.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I get your point--and agree--yet I have heard many atheists say how free they feel after letting go of notions of being accountable to a deity and its rules.

Absolutely.
There's no one simple answer for that, either, but I would agree that it's a common enough state of mind. I would see a few reasons for it (in basic terms);

1) Atheism, or at least self-described atheism, can be simply an act of rebellion of theism, due to almost anything from the trivial (but I don't WANNA go to church each week) to the profound. (eg. My church decries homosexuality, and I am a closet homosexual, therefore I will reject the church, and religion).

2) Atheism does represent freedom from both a deity, and (usually) religion. So there is no external party, be they divine or human who is telling you your every action will be judged, that eternal reward or retribution are tied to them, that there is a global struggle, battle for souls, or that everything makes sense, etc. It is, in some senses, a simplification of life.

3) There is, I am sure you'd agree, a period of cognitive dissonance a person must go to before moving from theism to atheism. There is not, for example, the possibility of a personal revelation changing someone's mind immediately. It's tension between what the person believes is true, or perhaps what they believe is right, and their current state of belief. At some point that tension becomes untenable, and a decision in one direction or the other is forced. It is completely normal to feel a sense of freedom once a decision is made. I would think a theist who has a crisis of faith, but then has their faith truly reconfirmed (ie. not lip service, but honest faith) would experience similar relief, but would couch it in different terms.

4) A 'new' atheist would first realise what they don't have, mostly. They don't have the restrictions and rules of religion. They don't have the same community of people (which may of may not be bad), they don't have the same expectations. This is not a meaningful or healthy way in which to live life, imho. Atheism is NOT a structure or framework for life in the way religion is. Instead, it's the denial of that structure (I'm talking very generically here...I know). You'd hope that the structure is replaced with something, be it an atheistic religious belief, some sort of humanist view, or pretty much anything else that indicates a level of thought and self-awareness. The chance to move from a religious framework which has possibly been tightly defined and chosen for them to a position where they can explore and determine a path, or make up their own is certainly freeing.

=============================================

I think it's more the implication that 'freedom' equals 'lack of responsibility' that kinda sticks in my craw. I have the freedom to make whatever choice I want, only if that freedom is compared to some sort of objective morality imposed by religion. But, from my viewpoint, morality is subjective, regardless of whether an individual thinks this is true or not. Much like a theist would suggest God exists whether I believe or not. Theists are just as 'free', but have identified, or been coerced, or feel connected to a religion that provides structure, and morals, etc.

The assumption inherent in the quote Thana provided earlier is that the removal of that structure equates to some sort of removal of morals, which I see as a fallacy of the highest order.

Can atheists be immoral? Yup, although they probably have the ability to twist moral language in a more flexible manner to 'justify' their actions. Can theists be immoral? Yup, although they probably have the ability to throw themselves on the mercy of their religion, and claim to have reconnected/rediscovered their faith.

Anyways...I actually think this stuff is really interesting and valuable to talk about. I just think such a discussion needs to be grounded, and avoid trite point-scoring.

And no, I'm not directing this at Thana. Hopefully she realises I'm not flogging that dead horse. It was just one quote, let's not get crazy. But over-generalisation is a hobby-horse of mine, and I TRY to apply the same standards, be it atheism or theism. I've called atheists on it before, and would do so again. I've called Deists on it too (although I suspect Sterling Archer might not agree with my point of view...lol).
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Absolutely.
There's no one simple answer for that, either, but I would agree that it's a common enough state of mind. I would see a few reasons for it (in basic terms);

1) Atheism, or at least self-described atheism, can be simply an act of rebellion of theism, due to almost anything from the trivial (but I don't WANNA go to church each week) to the profound. (eg. My church decries homosexuality, and I am a closet homosexual, therefore I will reject the church, and religion).

Agreed. But would we properly define that as "atheism" since underneath there may still be a belief in the deity being rejected? (this reflects back to an earlier thread I made about what we really believe versus what we say we believe)

2) Atheism does represent freedom from both a deity, and (usually) religion. So there is no external party, be they divine or human who is telling you your every action will be judged, that eternal reward or retribution are tied to them, that there is a global struggle, battle for souls, or that everything makes sense, etc. It is, in some senses, a simplification of life.
I suppose from one perspective that would be true. OTOH a spiritually centered life can be equally simple. Perhaps even more so. I mean you don't hear of atheists joining monasteries :p but I think you mean something different when speaking of "simplification". An atheist can do as they please or abide by their own inner moral compass and not need to weigh that against what a god or religion has to say on the subject.

3) There is, I am sure you'd agree, a period of cognitive dissonance a person must go to before moving from theism to atheism. There is not, for example, the possibility of a personal revelation changing someone's mind immediately. It's tension between what the person believes is true, or perhaps what they believe is right, and their current state of belief. At some point that tension becomes untenable, and a decision in one direction or the other is forced.
Not always true. I went from a kind of intuitive, primitive theism as a child (I was given next to no religious instruction) to atheism as a teen. It was not a difficult step. What was much more traumatic for me was leaving fundamentalism at a later date.

It is completely normal to feel a sense of freedom once a decision is made. I would think a theist who has a crisis of faith, but then has their faith truly reconfirmed (ie. not lip service, but honest faith) would experience similar relief, but would couch it in different terms.
From my perspective freedom to do whatever I want is a kind of bondage to self. Not what you mean I realize.

4) A 'new' atheist would first realise what they don't have, mostly. They don't have the restrictions and rules of religion. They don't have the same community of people (which may of may not be bad), they don't have the same expectations. This is not a meaningful or healthy way in which to live life, imho. Atheism is NOT a structure or framework for life in the way religion is. Instead, it's the denial of that structure (I'm talking very generically here...I know). You'd hope that the structure is replaced with something, be it an atheistic religious belief, some sort of humanist view, or pretty much anything else that indicates a level of thought and self-awareness. The chance to move from a religious framework which has possibly been tightly defined and chosen for them to a position where they can explore and determine a path, or make up their own is certainly freeing.
I certainly understand that. I also know atheists that became, or even remain, quite depressed over losing their faith. One prominent example:

Charles Templeton: Missing Jesus – Justin Taylor

But I have also encountered this on line.

I think it's more the implication that 'freedom' equals 'lack of responsibility' that kinda sticks in my craw. I have the freedom to make whatever choice I want, only if that freedom is compared to some sort of objective morality imposed by religion. But, from my viewpoint, morality is subjective, regardless of whether an individual thinks this is true or not. Much like a theist would suggest God exists whether I believe or not. Theists are just as 'free', but have identified, or been coerced, or feel connected to a religion that provides structure, and morals, etc.

The assumption inherent in the quote Thana provided earlier is that the removal of that structure equates to some sort of removal of morals, which I see as a fallacy of the highest order.
Speaking strictly for myself there would be a drop in moral caliber if I somehow came to embrace atheism (again). Because I am dedicated to a path that makes enormous ethical demands. Demands that run completely contrary to my very human nature. Of course I fail to live up to this high calling all the time. But it is still my ideal.

In general I could see myself acting way more selfishly than I already do. I mean why not do so? Why not live to just gratify self?

Can atheists be immoral? Yup, although they probably have the ability to twist moral language in a more flexible manner to 'justify' their actions. Can theists be immoral? Yup, although they probably have the ability to throw themselves on the mercy of their religion, and claim to have reconnected/rediscovered their faith.
The truly troubling thing about religion is how it can make decent people act in the most despicable ways if they are convinced that is what God wants them to do. They come to distrust their own inner moral compass. Of course this can happen in the secular world as well for other reasons but religion has a very bad track record in this department.

Anyways...I actually think this stuff is really interesting and valuable to talk about. I just think such a discussion needs to be grounded, and avoid trite point-scoring.

And no, I'm not directing this at Thana. Hopefully she realises I'm not flogging that dead horse. It was just one quote, let's not get crazy. But over-generalisation is a hobby-horse of mine, and I TRY to apply the same standards, be it atheism or theism. I've called atheists on it before, and would do so again. I've called Deists on it too (although I suspect Sterling Archer might not agree with my point of view...lol).
You are a an atheist of very high caliber and integrity :)
 
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idea

Question Everything
... it may or may not be related to a past life.

The disciples seemed to think it might have had something to do with past lives too...

(New Testament | John 9:2)
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

at least they believed "this man" had the ability to sin before he was born.
 

idea

Question Everything
'freedom' equals 'lack of responsibility'

freedom is a lack of responsibility though.... I mean, that's what responsibility is, isn't it? being tied down to someone/something, feeling obligated to do something for someone/something?
 
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