Excerpts from the Bible against Hell

finalfrogo · Feb 18, 2006

What excerpts from the Bible support the NONexistence of Hell?

(Please, do NOT debate the existence of Hell here!)

And could you please provide the verses of these excerpts? Thanks!

Popeyesays · Feb 18, 2006

finalfrogo said:
What excerpts from the Bible support the NONexistence of Hell?

(Please, do NOT debate the existence of Hell here!)

And could you please provide the verses of these excerpts? Thanks!

The word "Hell" does not occur in the Hebrew of the TaNakh. The word most commonly replacing the Greek "hell" in the Christian testaments is "sheol" which means simply "the grave" and usually by extension the grave of mankind as a whole.

Regards,
Scott

may · Feb 18, 2006

finalfrogo said:
What excerpts from the Bible support the NONexistence of Hell?

(Please, do NOT debate the existence of Hell here!)

And could you please provide the verses of these excerpts? Thanks!

if you mean hellfire

What

does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: "The wages sin pays is death."

After

ones death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin."

Is

eternal torment of the wicked compatible with Gods personality?

Jer. 7:31: "They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into Gods heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his childs hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? "God is love." (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

finalfrogo · Feb 18, 2006

may said:
if you mean hellfire

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: "The wages sin pays is death."

After ones death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin."

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with Gods personality?

Jer. 7:31: "They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into Gods heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his childs hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? "God is love." (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

Thanks!

If anyone else has anything more to add, I would appreciate it. :areyoucra

ray97 · Feb 20, 2006

finalfrogo said:
Thanks!

If anyone else has anything more to add, I would appreciate it. :areyoucra

An interesting one:

Regarding some of Israel's neighbours who sacrificed their children in a fire ritual:

"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Himnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come into my heart."-Jeremiah 7:31 This says a lot.

may · Feb 20, 2006

ray97 said:
An interesting one:

Regarding some of Israel's neighbours who sacrificed their children in a fire ritual:

"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Himnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come into my heart."-Jeremiah 7:31 This says a lot.

yes it tells me that God would not burn people , would you agree?

Endless · Feb 20, 2006

They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Himnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come into my heart."-Jeremiah 7:31 This says a lot.

yes it tells me that God would not burn people , would you agree?

My honest opinion is that it's blatently obvious that God is saying that human sacrifice is something he never ever commanded and such a repulsive thing never even crossed his mind. The high places - the alters to Moloch - they sacrificed their children to him in the fire. God is condeming this. If it interests you:

Tophet - comes from Toph which is a drum, apparently they used to beat the drums to drown the screams of the children burning in the fire. Or Taph, which is similar and means to burn.
Other verses in the bible commenting on this human sacrifice:
2 Kings 23:10
Psalm 106:38
Jeremiah 19:5
Jeremiah 32:35

This site gives a bit more information about Moloch.

So it was to the practise of child/human sacrifice that God is referring to. To try and interpret this as 'God would not burn people' is obviously not what this verse is teaching. Not to mention the fact that God is recorded as having burnt people May, but perhaps you did not know about those verses. Let me put them up:

Nu 16:35 And a fire came out from the LORD and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.

Nu 11:1 Now when the people complained, it displeased the LORD; for the LORD heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp.

2Ki 1:10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men." And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

I hardly think from that you can possibly conclude that God would not burn people. I think the verses speak for themselves.

With regard to Romans 6:7 being interpreted as once we die our sin means nothing? Even you will agree May that once we die we are still bound by our consequences of our sin - as i know you believe in the second death. So what exactly are you trying to imply by quoting that verse? Looking at the whole passage:

5 If we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Because the body is dead - they cannot sin through the body. That doesn't mean the consequences of our sin that we committed while still alive disappear - far from it.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

The judgement is as a result of the consequences of our sin while we were still alive.

finalfrogo,
Hope this shows that those verses don't actually support the non-existance of hell. You can decide yourself based on what has been written.

ray97 · Feb 20, 2006

may said:
yes it tells me that God would not burn people , would you agree?

Definately, I think it encompasses both the ritual and God not condemming people to such unconscionable torture

may · Feb 21, 2006

Endless said:
My honest opinion is that it's blatently obvious that God is saying that human sacrifice is something he never ever commanded and such a repulsive thing never even crossed his mind. The high places - the alters to Moloch - they sacrificed their children to him in the fire. God is condeming this. If it interests you:
.QUOTE] hi, i think maybe you have missed my point about this verse, i realize that it was humans doing this practice, and Jehovah is very repulsed by it , so it seems that God would not even think about burning anyone in fire . thank goodness

may · Feb 21, 2006

ray97 said:
Definately, I think it encompasses both the ritual and God not condemming people to such unconscionable torture

yes i agree , humans are capable of the most terrible things , when they are influenced by satan the devil, and after all satan is in opposition to the God of love,so this would be opposite to what God would do.

may · Feb 21, 2006

inline with romans 6;23

(Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

the bible tells me that the soul that is sinning will die , notice it says die not be tortured in hellfire

(Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the soulsto me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the sonto me they belong. The soul that is sinningit itself will die.

(Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die .......... yes Adam and eve died they didnt go to hellfire

Steve · Feb 21, 2006

may said:
hi, i think maybe you have missed my point about this verse, i realize that it was humans doing this practice, and Jehovah is very repulsed by it , so it seems that God would not even think about burning anyone in fire . thank goodness

may did you even look at the verses Endless provided showing that your point is simply not true?

Endless said:
Nu 16:35 And a fire came out from the LORD and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.

Nu 11:1 Now when the people complained, it displeased the LORD; for the LORD heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp.

2Ki 1:10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men." And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

May do you just ignor Jesus teachings about hell? eg

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' Luke 22-24

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outthose who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

And for those who say that hell just means a grave, why does Jesus often refer to it as "fiery hell", where there will be "weeping and nashing of teeth", where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.', "the lake of fire".

If people dont want to belive there is a hell thats their choice, but lets not twist Christs words and pretend and bible dosnt teach there is one - Christ warned more about hell then he spoke about heaven.

may · Feb 21, 2006

Steve said:
may did you even look at the verses Endless provided showing that your point is simply not true?

May do you just ignor Jesus teachings about hell? eg
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' Luke 22-24

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outthose who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

And for those who say that hell just means a grave, why does Jesus often refer to it as "fiery hell", where there will be "weeping and nashing of teeth", where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.', "the lake of fire".

If people dont want to belive there is a hell thats their choice, but lets not twist Christs words and pretend and bible dosnt teach there is one - Christ warned more about hell then he spoke about heaven.

if you go to the afterlife thread i have answered it .............it is post 40

Endless · Feb 21, 2006

Did God ever burn anyone in a fire May?

fromthe heart · Feb 21, 2006

I'm fairly sure that unless you take something out of context you will find more to support the fact of Hell(the eternal lake of fire) than anything to deny it exsists. As has been pointed out to May it's about the action they commited that God did not sanctify for people to do to one another and nothing to do with what the evil of this world will receive in Judgment. Also on Romans 6:23 it speaks of the actions of baptisim and nothing again that denies Hell will be the outcome for many.

I still have seen nothing that says "hell' will not be the outcome for many.

Popeyesays · Feb 21, 2006

Steve,

The phrase "lake of fire" is not among the actual words of Christ in the Gospels - it does not appear. Neither does the phrase "fiery hell." And neither "fire" nor "hell" appear in any of the instances of the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth":
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

See? No hellfire at all.

I did not check out the others suspecting that they are all limited to the Apocrypha, which even if you accept it as accurate of Christ's words, is SO extreme in metaphor and simile that its hard to tell what it really means.

Regards,
Scott

Endless · Feb 21, 2006

Since we are quoting Jesus lets see what he did say Popeyesays, because that's not entirely accurate.

Mt 13:40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Verse 50 of Matthew 13 also says the same thing again.

Since you quoted a verse from what Jesus was saying in Matthew 25, I too will quote the passage from which your verse was taken.

Mt 25:30 'And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
31 ¶ "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:....

Mt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Anyone reading the passage can easily tell that Jesus is referring to the consequences of ignoring himself. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is obviously the everlasting fire and everlasting punishment. This complements exactly Matthew 13:40-42.

Still think there is no hellfire? Check out what else Jesus said:

Mt 5:22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus' own words...ignore them if you want but this is what he said. This also is what he said:

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 "where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
49 "For everyone will be seasoned with fire, ...

Anyone seriously reading the Bible as God's word cannot come away from reading Jesus' own words and conclude there is no such thing as a place as hell. Three time in this passage alone Jesus warns the people about the seriousness of sin, that it will cause them to go to hell and then he proceeds to define hell as 'the fire that shall never be quenched'.
No one who treasures the Bible as God's word can conclude any different than what Jesus is teaching the people here. He would not deceive the people by lying to them as he would be doing if such a place as hell did not exist.
The way i look at it - you can either take Jesus' words or you can put your own words in his mouth - i know whose words i would rather trust.

I think the problem people who say there is no hell have, is that they cannot reconcile the characteristic of Love that we read about God having, with this fierce punishment. To them these two are opposites and cannot exist together. Sadly they miss out on truly knowing who God is - because it's a type of 'hippy' view of God (for want of a better word) that they have. God is love, peace, kind etc - Yes, he is all those things. But that is not all he is, he is Holy, pure, absolutely mind blowing in awesomeness, he is a Just God, he is a stern God, he is unmovable. When you understand God from this perspective sin takes on a completely different face, because you see the seriousness of it.
Sin is rebellion against God - it goes against all he stands for. I mean can you imagine standing infront of God, with his power and glory so intense before you, and you lying to him, stealing, swearing, gossiping, fighting etc Put all your sin in there - when you sin you are doing it against him. I cringe thinking about it.
The punishment fits the crime, God is Just, therefore it's eternal separation from God because we are stained from sin. The place where we are separated to is the place where God is not, and that is hell.
But hell was created for the devil and his angels - it was never meant for us, but we rebelled, all have sinned, therefore as the devil rebelled against God, so we will go to hell. The story doesn't end there - God in his mercy and love for us provided the only way out - there is simply no other way. Now the only person that will send you to hell is yourself - because the ball is in our court to make the decision whether to bear our own sins or to let Jesus bear them for us, and so accept and believe in what he did on the cross. God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself there because you force God's hand - he has no option but punish you for your sins if you choose to bear them yourself. Did you think God enjoys sending people to hell?

Eze 33:11 "Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Steve · Feb 21, 2006

Popeyesays said:
The phrase "lake of fire" is not among the actual words of Christ in the Gospels - it does not appear.

Anyone who belives the Bible, not just the Gospels knows that Christ often refers to hell as the "lake of fire" so im not sure why in a thread about what the Bible teaches you would try and limit it to the gospels.

Popeyesays said:
Neither does the phrase "fiery hell."

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mathew 5:22

"And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." Mathew 18:9

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

Popeyesays said:
And neither "fire" nor "hell" appear in any of the instances of the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth":
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Im not sure what your point is, i agree that Christ also taught that Hell will be a place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Popeyesays said:
See? No hellfire at all.

Huh? Again. Look at the verses above!!!

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Popeyesays said:
I did not check out the others suspecting that they are all limited to the Apocrypha, which even if you accept it as accurate of Christ's words, is SO extreme in metaphor and simile that its hard to tell what it really means.

Even if this is a metaphor why do think Christ would warn us with such extreame metaphors? I have an idea of what they mean, "get right with God because the judgement on sin is going to be very servere"

may · Feb 22, 2006

fromthe heart said:
I'm fairly sure that unless you take something out of context you will find more to support the fact of Hell(the eternal lake of fire) than anything to deny it exsists. As has been pointed out to May it's about the action they commited that God did not sanctify for people to do to one another and nothing to do with what the evil of this world will receive in Judgment. Also on Romans 6:23 it speaks of the actions of baptisim and nothing again that denies Hell will be the outcome for many.

I still have seen nothing that says "hell' will not be the outcome for many.

i think it is important to get back to what the word hell means , and the word ghenna also , then we can come to an accurate knowledge about what it means , for many years religious leaders and artists have put forth a red devil with a pitch fork and horns in a firery underworld ,but this is not a bible teaching . yes i do agree that God did not aurthorize the burning of children in worship, and yes i do think that there will be some who are judged because of their actions and rebellion against God . but i dont think that the bible teaches everlasting concious torture. death yes ,but not litral torture

finalfrogo · Feb 22, 2006

fromthe heart said:
I'm fairly sure that unless you take something out of context you will find more to support the fact of Hell(the eternal lake of fire) than anything to deny it exsists. As has been pointed out to May it's about the action they commited that God did not sanctify for people to do to one another and nothing to do with what the evil of this world will receive in Judgment. Also on Romans 6:23 it speaks of the actions of baptisim and nothing again that denies Hell will be the outcome for many.

I still have seen nothing that says "hell' will not be the outcome for many.

Well I'm not trying to use this as evidence that Hell doesn't exist, I'm just looking for contradictions in the Bible for this issue...

Excerpts from the Bible against Hell

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