The Third Day (for Christians).

JayJayDee · Dec 1, 2013

Quatermass said:
Also, another open question to Christians:

Why did jesus insult god's intelligence on the cross?

This thread demonstrates the common level of ignorance that turns people off religion in general....and Christianity in particular.

Knowing how the Jewish system worked....what Jews believed about sacrifice, blood, death and resurrection will answer all these questions.

Can I ask how Jesus insulted God's intelligence at any time?

Mycroft · Dec 2, 2013

JayJayDee said:
This thread demonstrates the common level of ignorance that turns people off religion in general....and Christianity in particular.

Knowing how the Jewish system worked....what Jews believed about sacrifice, blood, death and resurrection will answer all these questions.

Can I ask how Jesus insulted God's intelligence at any time?

Well. When Jesus was on the cross he said 'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do.'

Now if you're god, you don't need to be told that they don't know what they're doing. What did he think god would say? 'Gee, I guess you're right. I never thought of it like that before.' It was a clear insult to god's intelligence.

JayJayDee · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
Well. When Jesus was on the cross he said 'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do.'

Now if you're god, you don't need to be told that they don't know what they're doing. What did he think god would say? 'Gee, I guess you're right. I never thought of it like that before.' It was a clear insult to god's intelligence.

I guess if you are gullible enough to believe that Jesus was God, then you might come to that conclusion. :facepalm:

But the Bible does not teach that Jesus was God incarnate. Jesus was simply born as a human to be the equivalent of Adam...a perfect human. He did not have to be God to do that.
God's law demanded equivalency...'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...a life for a life'. Jesus life cancels out Adam's sin.

What Adam lost could not find an equivalent among the now imperfect human race, so a life had to come into the world that was from outside of Adam's now defective descendants.

Since blood is the very symbol of life, blood is what atones for sin.

Jesus was the Word, (Logos) the spokesman who was "with" his God and Father "in the beginning". He was god-like, but he was not "ho theos". (THE God)

Jesus' prayer was for the ignorant Roman soldiers who put him on the execution stake, not for the bloodguilty Jewish religious leaders who knew exactly what they were doing in getting rid of the thorn in their side. Why do you think Jesus castigated them at every opportunity?

Me Myself · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
That's not a sacrifice.

sacrifice
ˈsakrɪfʌɪs/
noun
noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices

2.
give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations.

He knew it was coming (being that he's part of the trinity). But again, that's not really a sacrifice, is it? That's just, well, surrender. Nobody worships the French for their sacrifice? :

Comfort. In that interpretation, he sacrificed comfort or wellbeing. No one's death is eternal in the christian mindset, yet still we say we "sacrifice" something if we say someone put his life on the line. Sacrificing your body is still sacrificing your body.

This remains true in the mainstream christianity mindframe in which everyone or all of the "winners" will get their body back eventually. Still if they sacrificed their life for something, then they sacrificed their life for something.

If someone takes severe torture for me and then is hanged to a cross (so, more torture) for hours while bleeding to death and all.. Yeah he sacrificed himself for me. Even if he didnt happen to die afterwards.

That said, I honestly doubt he suffered in the cross. I would expect someone if his powers to be in exactly asuch pleasure or pain as he wished in that moment.

But my mindframe is not at all that of the mainstream christian. I dont like to glorify suffering, but love and understanding.

Me Myself · Dec 2, 2013

JayJayDee said:
I guess if you are gullible enough to believe that Jesus was God, then you might come to that conclusion.
But the Bible does not teach that Jesus was God incarnate. Jesus was simply born as a human to be the equivalent of Adam...a perfect human. He did not have to be God to do that.
God's law demanded equivalency...'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...a life for a life'. Jesus life cancels out Adam's sin.

What Adam lost could not find an equivalent among the now imperfect human race, so a life had to come into the world that was from outside of Adam's now defective descendants.

Since blood is the very symbol of life, blood is what atones for sin.

Jesus was the Word, (Logos) the spokesman who was "with" his God and Father "in the beginning". He was god-like, but he was not "ho theos". (THE God)

Jesus' prayer was for the ignorant Roman soldiers who put him on the execution stake, not for the bloodguilty Jewish religious leaders who knew exactly what they were doing in getting rid of the thorn in their side. Why do you think Jesus castigated them at every opportunity?

Of the big chunk of assumptions you make I will at least debate the last ones. We dont know to whom was the prayer directed. Jesus publicly corrected the religious leaders, but to assume that all of them knew exactly what they were doing... Well, we dont knnow that.

It could vry well be that they all truly believed Jesus was a false prophet. Remember it is not unfathomable that a false prophet comes and does great miracles, Jesus himself said not to trust other prophets just cause of their miracles.

Just assuming the evil jewish leaders that you have never in your life known were obviously puposefully evil because mwahaha is... Extremely childish and narrow minded.

Me Myself · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
For three whole days? Big deal. Hardly inspires me to 'love' the guy.

So a stranger willingly submits himself to severe torture for you and waits 9 hour or more on a cross with severe thraumas to his body being absolutely capable of healing himself and stepping out of it at any second, but deliberately does not do it through all the process and bears with it till the end and you think that is no form of sacrifice?

%*#! Remember never to do you any favors :/

Me Myself · Dec 2, 2013

Thana said:
So being tortured, Crucified and going to hell is not a sacrifice to you?

Imagine the enthusiasm with which anyone would do any favor for someone tnking thus.

Mind you, I have no qualms with anyone not praying to Jesus or something, nit believing in him, etc.

But thinking torture is no biggy? Rats...

I could understand it if he thought Jesus didnt suffer the torture like I think he didnt, but what on Earth? In what way is enduring torture not a sacrifice?

Id rather die than to be tortured as he was. I certainly dont have the balls for that..

JayJayDee · Dec 2, 2013

Me Myself said:
Just assuming the evil jewish leaders that you have never in your life known were obviously puposefully evil because mwahaha is... Extremely childish and narrow minded.

Assuming? I don't think that Jesus left us in any doubt about the fate of these men...do you?

Do you see forgiveness in his words addressed to them?

"13 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. 14
15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Ge·hen′na twice as much so as yourselves.
16 Woe to you, blind guides......
23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!
25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of plunder and immoderateness. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside of it also may become clean.
27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead mens bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In that way you also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and you say, If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Therefore you are bearing witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of your forefathers.
33 Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na? 34 For this reason, here I am sending forth to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and impale, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; 35 that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri′ah son of Bar·a·chi′ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. 38 Look! your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, Blessed is he that comes in Jehovahs name! (Matt 23)

Pegg · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
So the bible alleges that Jesus made a sacrifice for our sins by dying on the cross. It then says that on the third day he rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.

My question is this: Where's the sacrifice?

Jesus sacrificed his perfect human life... that has never been restored to him.

savagewind · Dec 2, 2013

Assuming? I don't think that Jesus left us in any doubt about the fate of these men...do you?

Do you see forgiveness in his words addressed to them?

39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matt 23)

I see it in this scripture. They would not be able to say it unless God forgave them.

savagewind · Dec 2, 2013

Jesus sacrificed his own will to do the will of The Father. It is gone and it is never coming back.

Jesus says anything we ask in his name he will do it. Jesus had the same thing from The Father. Anything he asked in his Father's Name he could have it. He did not ask for his own will to be done. That is what he sacrificed. His death fixed it forever.

sojourner · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
So the bible alleges that Jesus made a sacrifice for our sins by dying on the cross. It then says that on the third day he rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.

My question is this: Where's the sacrifice?

Have you ever been crucified? It's no day at the beach.

Sees · Dec 2, 2013

I guess if going by the two main definitions we have a couple of options. All supposing a historical person and not a mythical cult creation.

It was a sacrifice in the definition of "an offering made to a deity"

Christians believe it was a sacrifice in that sense and in the definition of "giving up something to obtain something else or to help one or more others"

Outside observers without religious belief in Jesus' mission or his deity would not see either definition of sacrifice, but someone who turned himself in to the law and was executed.

nazz · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
It's somewhat paradoxical I agree. Jesus died for our sins....but his having died means everyone is born in sin.

No, at least not in the way you are thinking.

Mycroft · Dec 2, 2013

nazz said:
No, at least not in the way you are thinking.

Well it's one of the other. Either everyone is forgiven or everyone is a sinner.

Or was everyone forgiven previously but now are guilty of a new boxset of sins?

Mycroft · Dec 2, 2013

sojourner said:
Have you ever been crucified? It's no day at the beach.

As far as crucifixion goes the Bible seems to say he got off light. He was only nailed up there having, apparently, foregone the usual crurifragium that was also used.

But yes. Painful. Yes. Not very nice. but no. not a sacrifice. Unless it was to sacrifice being at sea-level.

nazz · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
Well it's one of the other. Either everyone is forgiven or everyone is a sinner.

Or was everyone forgiven previously but now are guilty of a new boxset of sins?

There are many theories of atonement:

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#H.E.B.Knowledge · Dec 2, 2013

Quatermass said:
That's not a sacrifice.

sacrifice
ˈsakrɪfʌɪs/
noun
noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices

2.
give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations.

The definition clearly states that you will have to give up something "valued" for the sake of other considerations. Jesus wasn't a sacrifice because according to the bible, his flesh was brutally beaten and killed. Matt 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." If the flesh is weak then obviously it isn't valued much to God. Then Jesus's spirit ascends into heaven after 3 days. So pretty much he went back home to be with God. Where's the sacrifice? Now, if Jesus was to spend eternity in "hell" for everybody's sins then that would be a sacrifice, because God would no longer have his begotten Son in heaven. Jesus only took a trip to hell but he really didn't sacrifice anything.

JayJayDee · Dec 2, 2013

39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matt 23)

I see it in this scripture. They would not be able to say it unless God forgave them.

After almost 2,000 years, the Jewish people have never acknowledged 'the one who came in Jehovah's name'. Individual Jews have come to accept Jesus as Messiah, but the natural Jews still reject him to this day.

If Jesus will reject 'many' who claim to be his disciples, (Matt 7:21-23) what do we expect he will do to those who have rejected him from the beginning?

Where there is no repentance, there can be no forgiveness.

Sees · Dec 2, 2013

JayJayDee said:
Where there is no repentance, there can be no forgiveness.

Why can there not be forgiveness without repentance? I can forgive a young child without their repentance, how could Yahweh not match or better my limited understanding and love?

Even more so considering that he would be the one who created them that way and had it in his plan?

This theological rationalizing is where all the trouble begins.

The Third Day (for Christians).

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