Should women be ordained?

Feathers in Hair · Oct 9, 2004

This topic was mentioned (briefly) over in this thread, and I would be interested in hearing what other people have to say about it.

What does your religion say about women (or, for that matter, men) being ordained? Do you agree or disagree with the stance? (And if you disagree, are you able to easily reconcile being in that faith while it takes that positition?)

Since this topic can be quite touchy for some people, let's make the Official Weapondry of the thread pillows, as opposed to angry comments. (For example *so-and-so disagrees with such-and-such, so they toss a pillow at them*.)

Lightkeeper · Oct 9, 2004

Being as how I am an ordained interfaith minister, I would have to say, yes. There are more women in the ministry these days. I think its widely accepted in the Christian religion, except for the Catholic Church. Are there any women Rabbi's yet?

Sunstone · Oct 9, 2004

The rabbi at the synagouge in my neighborhood is a woman.

painted wolf · Oct 9, 2004

Women often played just as important a role in the religion of Native American society as men did...of cource you cant generalize too much as there are more than 300 different tradidions/cultures/religions ammong Native Americans so if you look you can find some one who believed in just about anything.

Creator picks who creator picks as far as I'm concerned. Man, woman whatever, its what is in thier spirit that counts.

wa:do

Ceridwen018 · Oct 9, 2004

A good question would also be, "Why not?"

Doc · Oct 10, 2004

I think that women have every right that men do. This is a touch subject for my sister because she is very religous and could possibly become a priest if the faith allowed. This may be a better question for any of you ordained in the Catholic Church! Are any of you?

standing_on_one_foot · Oct 10, 2004

Lightkeeper said:
Are there any women Rabbi's yet?

Yup, both rabbis at my synagogue are women.

No Orthodox rabbis who are women, I don't think, and I dunno if Conservative Jews have rabbis who are women either, but Reform Jews certainly do.

So, yeah, I think it's a good thing, that both women and men can be ordained. I don't see why not, personally.

Yay, pillows! But no one's said anything I disagree with yet. *sulks* I want to throw pillows at someone! *throws pillows at all of you for annoying me by not annoying me* You sneaky, sneaky people, you.

Sorry. I'm on the sugary Kerns drinks again. It does stuff to me brain

Green Gaia · Oct 10, 2004

The minister at my UU church is a woman. I can't see any reason why women should not be ordained.

cardero · Oct 10, 2004

I have also known women who have been ordained and the spitirual value that they have contributed to their congregation. I would think that any religion who does not recognize the attributes and perspectives that women can share to any organization does not TRULY K(NOW) GOD.

TRUE GOD fact 12.
GOD does not hold ONE entity higher than the other, every entity (spiritual, physical, animal, plant) is equal.

Engyo · Oct 10, 2004

My wife is a shami; this means she is a candidate for ordination as a Buddhist minister (in a Japanese school, no less!). Resident ministers of temples in Germany, Malaysia, India, and Brasil are all women; I don't know how many there are in Japan itself.

Iacobus · Oct 12, 2004

As a Roman Catholic my Church does not ordin women. I agree with this stance. The goal of this is not to place women on a lower level, nor estibilish and control a male domenated religion, but instead to adhere to the stadard set by Christ.

St Paul says in his letters that women should be silent in the Churchs, and while this today seems offensive, it isn't when viewed in the larger context. The Early Church gave women, as well as men, places of authority and veneration. The Church still today honors the Blessed Virign and many female saints.

Futhermore, the priesthood is not a right, but rather it is a calling. A man sololy on being male does not have the ability to be a preist, it takes a calling much like that of Aaron.

Sunstone · Oct 12, 2004

Iacobus said:
Futhermore, the priesthood is not a right, but rather it is a calling. A man sololy on being male does not have the ability to be a preist, it takes a calling much like that of Aaron.

Are you suggesting that women don't have callings? That God only calls men? That seems absurd to me.

Runt · Oct 12, 2004

I go to a Unitarian Universalist Church, and my minister is a woman. Also, I have many female friends (many of them Wiccan) who have been "ordained" through the Universal Life Church so that they can legally perform handfastings for their pagan friends. And I know in Wicca it is not only acceptable, but often expected that there be a High Priestess (and yes, also a High Priest) in a coven.

Iacobus · Oct 12, 2004

Sunstone said:
Are you suggesting that women don't have callings? That God only calls men? That seems absurd to me.

God calls people of all genders to religious life. Men are called to life as monks, friars, and priests. Women are called to life as religious as well, however, not to the role of priesthood.

The roles of the religious are equal to the role played by a priest in most aspects. The biggest, and most important, difference is in Communion. Only a valid ordined priest can pray the Mass and make the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood. In order to do this, the priest is in, forgive my spelling, persona Christi. Christ was clearly male and to be in the person of Christ, it could be logical assumed the same must be true.

Futhermore, Christ and all those he ordined to become members of his priesthood were male, Sacred Tradation and Writings indicated that was the intent. There were many females close to Christ, yet he did not ordain them. TBOK, Christ intended for males, and males alone, to be ordained to the priesthood.

Ceridwen018 · Oct 12, 2004

however, not to the role of priesthood.

How can you be so sure? I am positive there are women out there who feel called to become preistesses--I have met them.

Christ was clearly male and to be in the person of Christ, it could be logical assumed the same must be true.

But Christ was God and God is genderless, is she not? The point of communion is not to impersonate Jesus, but to present his body and blood.

Futhermore, Christ and all those he ordined to become members of his priesthood were male, Sacred Tradation and Writings indicated that was the intent. There were many females close to Christ, yet he did not ordain them.

I don't remember anything in the bible that talks about Jesus 'ordaining' anybody. Also, in the male dominated society from which the writers of the bible came, it is likely that they would have felt pressure not to write about anything significant involving women. For instance, if Jesus had 'ordained' Mary Magdalene, that little morsel of info could have been easily left out.

St Paul says in his letters that women should be silent in the Churchs, and while this today seems offensive, it isn't when viewed in the larger context.

What is the larger context, then?

The Early Church gave women, as well as men, places of authority and veneration.

Could you please list some?

Feathers in Hair · Oct 12, 2004

Iacobus said:
God calls people of all genders to religious life. Men are called to life as monks, friars, and priests. Women are called to life as religious as well, however, not to the role of priesthood.

Why should women not be called to priesthood? I've heard the call to be priestess, although not necessarily in that religion. Does that make the call I got any less valid?

Green Gaia · Oct 12, 2004

In my religion, yes women should be ordained, otherwise, it would not be my religion, lol. What other religions do on the matter is of no concern to me. However I do find it interesting the different responses.

Scott1 · Oct 12, 2004

Hey all...

I don't mean to stifle the discussion here, but the ordination of women will NEVER happen in the Catholic Church. It can't.

Iacobus, welcome.... and please, feel free to keep discussing this, like I said, I don't want to stop the thread, I just wanted all of our non-Catholic friends to know that this is a dead issue.

Women play a wonderful role in our Church. I encourage everyone to read my thread in the Catholic section about the subject: The Dignity and Vocation of Women.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3281

........ ooooooooh Lofton home run! 7-0 Yankees :jam:

sorry........

Scott

Feathers in Hair · Oct 12, 2004

SOGFPP said:
Hey all...

I don't mean to stifle the discussion here, but the ordination of women will NEVER happen in the Catholic Church. It can't.

Iacobus, welcome.... and please, feel free to keep discussing this, like I said, I don't want to stop the thread, I just wanted all of our non-Catholic friends to know that this is a dead issue.

Oh, dear heavens, I got so caught up in the topic that I didn't recognize poor Iacobus as a new member! Welcome!

And you aren't stifling the conversation, Scott, simply noting what's already been discussed. (Which you get a jammin' smiley for doing! :jam: :jam: :jam: ) (Or three, because they look like groupies, that way!)

Green Gaia · Oct 12, 2004

When some denominations started to ordain women:
Formal discrimination against women in positions of authority has been gradually eliminated in Western societies, with the exception of some assignments in the military, and positions of power in many conservative religious institutions.

A partial list with the approximate dates of either:

the approval of female ordination in principle or
the ordination of their first women clergy by Christian and Jewish 10 faith groups

appears below. We are attempting to add to this list and firm up the dates shown:

Early 1800's: A fundamental belief of the Society of Friends (Quakers) has always been the existence of an element of God's spirit in every human soul. Thus all persons are considered to have inherent and equal worth, independent of their gender. This led naturally to an opposition to sexism, and an acceptance of female ministers. In 1660, Margaret Fell (1614 - 1702) published a famous pamphlet to justify equal roles for men and women in the denomination. It was titled: "Women's Speaking Justified, Proved and Allowed of by the Scriptures, All Such as Speak by the Spirit and Power of the Lord Jesus And How Women Were the First That Preached the Tidings of the Resurrection of Jesus, and Were Sent by Christ's Own Command Before He Ascended to the Father (John 20:17)." 7 In the U.S., "In contrast with almost every other organized religion, the Society of Friends (Quakers) have allowed women to serve as ministers since the early 1800s." 8
1853: Antoinette Brown was ordained by the Congregationalist Church. However, her ordination was not recognized by the denomination. It later merged with others to create the United Church of Christ. 5,6
1863: Olympia Brown was ordained by the Universalist denomination in 1863, in spite of a last-moment case of cold feet by her seminary which feared adverse publicity. She later became a Unitarian. After a decade and a half of service as a full-time minister, she became a part-time minister in order to devote more time to the fight for women's rights and universal suffrage. In 1961, the Universalists and Unitarians joined to form the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA). The UUA became the first large denomination with a majority of female ministers. In 1999-APR, female ministers outnumbered their male counterpart 431 to 422.
1865: Salvation Army is founded and has always ordained both men and women. However, there were initially rules that prohibited a woman from marrying a man who had a lower rank.
1880: Anna Howard Shaw was the first woman ordained in the Methodist Protestant Church, which later merged with other denominations to form the United Methodist Church. 12
1889: The Nolin Presbytery of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church ordained Louisa Woosley. 1
1889: Ella Niswonger was the first woman ordained in the United Brethren church, which later merged with other denominations to form the United Methodist Church. 12
1892: Anna Hanscombe is believed to be the first woman ordained by the parent bodies which formed the Church of the Nazarene in 1919. 11
1911: Ann Allebach was the first Mennonite woman to be ordained. This occurred at the First Mennonite Church of Philadelphia.
1914: Assemblies of God was founded and ordained its first woman clergy
1920's: Some Baptist denominations.
1920's: United Reformed Church in the UK
1922: The Jewish Reform movement's Central Conference of American Rabbis stated that "Woman cannot justly be denied the privilege of ordination."
1930: A predecessor church of the Presbyterian Church (USA) ordained its first female as an elder
1935: Regina Jonas was ordained privately by a German rabbi.
1936: United Church of Canada.
1942: Anglican communion, Hong Kong. Florence Li Tim Oi was ordained on an emergency basis. Some sources say it happened in 1943.
1947: Czechoslovak Hussite Church
1948: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark
1949: Old Catholic Church (in the U.S.)
1956: A predecessor church of the Presbyterian Church (USA) ordained its first woman minister.
1956: Maud K. Jensen was the first woman to receive full clergy rights and conference membership in the Methodist Church. 12
1960: Evangelical Lutheran Church in Sweden
1967: Presbyterian Church in Canada
1971: Anglican communion, Hong Kong. Joyce Bennett and Jane Hwang were the first regularly ordained priests.
1972: Reform Judaism
1972: Swedenborgian Church
1972: Sally Priesand became the first woman rabbi to be ordained by a theological seminary. She was ordained in the Reform tradition.
1970's: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
1974: Methodist Church in the UK
1974: Sandy Eisenberg Sasso became the first woman rabbi to be ordained within the Jewish Reconstructionist movement. 9
1976: Episcopal Church (11 women were ordained in Philadelphia before church laws were changed to permit ordination)
1976: Anglican Church in Canada ordained six female priests.
1977: Anglican Church of New Zealand ordained five female priests.
1979: The Reformed Church in America. Women had been admitted to the offices of deacon and elder in 1972.
1983: An Anglican woman was ordained in Kenya
1983: Three Anglican women were ordained in Uganda.
1984: The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints authorized the ordination of women. This is the second largest Mormon denomination; it is now called The Community of Christ. 2
1985: Amy Eilberg became the first rabbi in Conservative Judaism.
1988: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
1990: Anglican women are ordained in Ireland.
1992: Church of England
1992: Anglican Church of South Africa
1995: Seventh-day Adventists. Sligo Seventh-day Adventist Church in Takoma Park VA ordained three women in violation of the denomination's rules.
1995: The Christian Reformed Church voted to allow women ministers, elders, and evangelists. In 1998-NOV, the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council (NAPARC) suspended the CRC's membership because of this decision. 3
1998: General Assembly of the Nippon Sei Ko Kai (Anglican Church in Japan)
1998: Guatemalan Presbyterian Synod
1998: Old Catholic Church in the Netherlands
1998: Some Orthodox Jewish congregations started to employ female "congregational interns" "Although these 'interns' do not lead worship services, they perform some tasks usually reserved for rabbis, such as preaching, teaching, and consulting on Jewish legal matters." 9
1999: Independent Presbyterian Church of Brazil (ordination as either clergy or elders)
2000: The Baptist Union of Scotland voted to allow their churches to either allow or prohibit the ordination of women.
2000: The Mombasa diocese of the Anglican Church of Kenya.
2000: The Church of Pakistan ordained its first women deacons. It is a united church which dates back to the 1970 local merger of Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans and other Protestants.

Some Protestant churches have allowed women to become bishops:

1980: United Methodist Church
1989: Episcopal Church in the U.S.
1992: Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany
1996: Lutheran Church in Sweden
1997: Anglican Church of Canada
Unknown: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark
Unknown: Anglican Church of New Zealand
1998: Presbyterian Church in Guatemala
1998: Moravian Church in America
1999: Czechoslovak Hussite Church

Many faith groups still refuse to consider women for ordination. Many teach that women have very specific roles, both in the family and in religious organizations where positions of authority are reserved for males. This list includes the Roman Catholic Church, all Eastern Orthodox churches, a minority of provinces within the Anglican Communion, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) and many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestant denominations.

On the other hand, the Unitarian Universalist religion is the first major faith group which has a majority of female clergy. Women have had equal and sometimes superior roles within Wiccan and other Neopagan groups.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg13.htm

Should women be ordained?

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