Why torture Christ?

Halcyon said:

Yes, quite right. You do the crime you do the time.

I would never ask anyone to make themselves a sacrificial lamb to appease a vengeful God, just so that all my evil deeds are stripped from me and even though i've done bad things, will still be rewarded in paradise - i'd rather rot in hell.

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Jesus did not sacrifice himself to appease a vengeful God. Let me quote John 3:16-18: "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved."
God did love the world. If you ask me, "but why does he send people to hell?" let me ask you this: why would God send his only son into the world to die for our sin unless there was no other way around hell? My own response is that the penalty for sin is death, and death is the separation from God, which is hell, and that someone must pay the penalty for all of our sins, otherwise we would all go to hell, which is something God would NOT want because he loves us. Jesus became obedient to the point of death, meaning that both he and God love us, as he was obeying God's will, which was for us to live, and he obeyed God because he loves us more than himself.

Halcyon said:

Jesus was a nice man, with some brilliant teachings. All you Pauline Christians seem to dismiss his teachings as almost pointless in comparison to his supposed sacrifice. You apostatised from the very beginning of your church.

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Good christians DO NOT dismiss his teachings at all. We follow them because that's what God, who loves us so much, wants us to do. That's the only thing God requires of us to do other than believe in Jesus, to follow his teachings.

I'll also say that his teachings are pointless without his sacrifice. Without his sacrifice, we would all go to hell anyway, so WHY LIVE BY MORALS at all. Really, answer me this, why would we live by teachings or morals?

Daniel Burbank said:

Jesus did not sacrifice himself to appease a vengeful God. Let me quote John 3:16-18: "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved."

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Daniel, what in the name of all that is Holy makes you think this passage has anything to do with the death of Jesus?
For a start, the gospel of John was written by Gnostics and later the second half was edited by Catholics. Most things in it are allegorical.
What this passage is talking about is believing in Jesus's teachings, not in his divinity - anyone not indoctrinated can see that. Believe in the word of Jesus, follow his lead and you shall be saved, couldn't be written any clearer - "the world through him might be saved"

Daniel Burbank said:

God did love the world. If you ask me, "but why does he send people to hell?" let me ask you this: why would God send his only son into the world to die for our sin unless there was no other way around hell? My own response is that the penalty for sin is death, and death is the separation from God, which is hell, and that someone must pay the penalty for all of our sins, otherwise we would all go to hell, which is something God would NOT want because he loves us. Jesus became obedient to the point of death, meaning that both he and God love us, as he was obeying God's will, which was for us to live, and he obeyed God because he loves us more than himself.

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*sigh* God didn't send his son to die for us, He sent him to enlighten us. There is another way around hell (not that such a concept actually exists) - that other way is listening to God.
Do you never question what you've been taught? Do you never ask God directly for instruction?

You tell me, why does God need a sacrifice to accept us into heaven? Why can't God forgive us our sins if we repent without the need for bloodshed?

Daniel Burbank said:

Good christians DO NOT dismiss his teachings at all. We follow them because that's what God, who loves us so much, wants us to do. That's the only thing God requires of us to do other than believe in Jesus, to follow his teachings.
I'll also say that his teachings are pointless without his sacrifice. Without his sacrifice, we would all go to hell anyway, so WHY LIVE BY MORALS at all.

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See, you just backed up my statement, you say yourself that Jesus's teachings are pointless without his sacrifice.

Daniel Burbank said:

Really, answer me this, why would we live by teachings or morals?

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Why live morally if by not accepting the sacrifice of the lamb you condemn yourself to hell?
Oh dear Daniel, you preach of a loving and just God and yet you can't see the problem with the above belief?

I'll spell it out for you;
A loving and just God would forgive you your sins and accept you into his heart if you live a morally good life, if you are loving and compassionate, selfless and kind - to the best of your abilities.
If you try your hardest to live a good life, would a just and loving God throw you into a fiery pit for not believing in 2,000 year old stories?
The answer is no, if you hadn't already guessed.

Also, why would an atheist liev by moral standards? Because if you're nice to people they are generally nice to you in return, nothing to do with divine browny points.

A quotation:

The Dilemma of Jesus
Let me once again make it clear that I do not disbelieve in Jesus but have profound respect for him as a messenger of God with exceptional sacrifices to his credit. I understand Jesus to be a holy man, going through a period of great trial. But as the narration of the act of Crucifixion begins to unfold and come to a close we are left with no choice but to believe that Jesus did not volunteer himself for death upon the cross. The night before the day his enemies attempted to murder him by crucifixion we hear him praying all night, along with his disciples, because the truth of his claim was at stake. It is said in the Old Testament that an imposter who attributes things to God which He had never said, would be hanged on a tree and die upon it an accursed death.

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 18:20)

And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is accursed of God. (Deutronomy 21:22–23)

Jesus knew that if this happened, the Jews would celebrate with ecstasy and proclaim him to be an imposter whose falsehood had finally been proved beyond a shadow of doubt on the authority of the divine Scriptures. This was the reason why he was so anxious to escape the bitter cup of death; not out of cowardice but out of fear that his people would be misled and would fail to recognise his truth if he died upon the cross. All night he prayed so piteously and helplessly that to read the account of his agony and misery is heart rending. But as this real life drama proceeds to a close, the climax of his emotional distress, dejection and hopelessness is fully displayed in his last cry: ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani?’—which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

One must notice that it was not agony alone expressed in that cry but obviously there was mingled with it an element of surprise, bordering on horror. After he was brought back to consciousness, with the help of some of his dedicated disciples who applied to his wounds an ointment they had prepared before Crucifixion and which contained all the ingredients needed for mitigating pain and healing wounds, he must have been so wonderfully and happily surprised and his faith in a loving true God would have been reinstated and revitalised in a manner seldom experienced by man in its intensity and boundlessness.

The fact that the ointment had been prepared in advance constitutes a strong proof that Jesus’ disciples were indeed expecting him to be delivered from the cross alive, very much in need of medicinal treatment.

From the above, it becomes comfortingly clear that the concept of Inherited Sin and of Crucifixion are based only on the conjecture and wishful thinking of Christian theologians at a later date. It is quite likely that it was born out of some pre-Christian myths of a similar nature, which, when applied to the circumstances of Jesus Christ, tempted them to read close similarities between the two and create a similar myth. However, whatever the mystery or paradox, as we see it, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Christian philosophy of Sin and Atonement was based on anything which Jesus might have said or done or taught. He could never have preached anything so contrary to, and so diametrically opposed to human intellect.

Here is another look at the whole situation.. try to read it all, because even if you don't believe it, it is pretty interesting, just to think that these versus are (apparantly) coming straight from God, and out of Mohammed.


Sura 3:54-55
And (the unbelievers)
Plotted and planned.
And God too planned.
And the best of planners
Is God.

Behold! God said:
"O Jesus ! I will take thee
And raise thee to Myself
And clear thee (of the falsehoods)
Of those who blaspheme;
I will make those
Who follow thee superior
To those who reject faith.
To the Day of Resurrection:
Then shall ye all
Return unto me,
And I will judge
Between you of the matters
Wherein ye dispute.

That is (from a muslims view) a conversation that happened between God and Jesus (PBUH). God told Jesus that he would raise him and keep him away from the people who want nothing but to harm him, and states that the ones who truly believe in God and in his prophet (Jesus) are above those who do not. (Sorry if this offends)

I hope people don't mind, but to get the full understanding of this next verse from the Quran I want to show, I will have to show a lot of it, but it's a very interesting sura, and is very necessary for this thread.

Sura 4: 153-159
The People of the Book
Ask thee to cause
A book to descend to them
From heaven; indeed
They asked Moses
For an even greater
(Miracle), for they said:
"Show us God in Public,"
But they were dazed
For their persumption,
With thunder and lightning.
Yet they woshipped the calf
Even after Clear Signs
Had come to them ;
And gave Moses manifest
Proofs of authority.

And for their Covenant
We raised over them
(The towering height)
Of Mount (Sinai) ;
And (on another occasion)
We said: " Enter the gate
With humility", and (once again)
We commanded them :
"Transgress not in the matter Of the Sabbath."
And We took from them
A solemn Covenant.

(They have incurred divine
Displeasure): in that they
Broke their Covenant;
That they rejected the Signs
Of God; that they slew
The Messengers in defiance
Of right ; that they said,
"Our hearts are the wrappings
(Which preserve God's word;
We need no more)", - Nay,
God hath set the seal on their hearts
For their blasphemy,
And little is it they believe ; -

That they rejected Faith ;
That they uttered against Mary
A grave false charge


That they said (in boast)
" We killed Christ Jesus
The Son of Mary
The Apostle of God" ;
But they killed him not,
Nor crucified him,
But so it was made
To appear to them,
And those who differ
Therein are full of doubts,
With no (certain) knowledge,
But only conjecture to follow,
For a surety
They killed him not.

Nay God raised him up
Unto himself ; and God
Is Exalted in Power, Wise.

The end of the life of Jesus on earth is as much involved in mystery as his birth, and indeed the greater part of his private life, except the three main years of his ministry. It is not profitable to discuss the many doubts and conjectures among the early Christians sects and among Muslim theologians. The Orthodox Christian Chruches make it a cardinal point of their doctrine that his life was taken on the Cross, that he died and was burried, that on the third day he rose into the body with his wounds intact, and walked about and conversed, and ate with his disciples, and afterwards was taken up bodily to heaven. This is necessary for the theological doctrine of blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement for sins, which is rejected by Islam. But some of the early Christian sects did not believe that Christ was killed on the Cross. The Basilidans believed that some one else was substituted for him. The Docetae held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but only an apparent or phantom body, and that his Crucifixion was only apparant, not real. The Marcionite Gospel (about A.D 138) denied that Jesus was born, and merely said that he appeared in human forum. The Gospel of St.Barnabas supported the theory of substitution on the Cross. The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of his enemies; that disputations,doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to God.

Hopefull that was somewhat interesting and not too offensive to some Christians and Jews. If this did offend, I certaintly did not mean to do so, I'm just putting in the Islamic or Muslim view on the topic at hand in this thread.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean Fadel