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The battle of evolution vs creationism

idea

Question Everything
how does genetics and the environment influence what survives and what does not.

Give-Up-Itis


In Max Hastings' excellent book The Korean War
ir
there's an extended discussion of the factors that caused captured soldiers to survive or perish while they lived in deplorable conditions in Korean prison camps.

Every Korean War POW became severely ill, from the cold, from dysentery, from malnutrition, or from some combination thereof. And yet a surprising number of soldiers died from less serious illnesses that shouldn't have been life-threatening.

Eventually, the POWs named their own new disease: give-up-itis. Once a soldier "gave up" in the camps it was only a matter of days or weeks before he perished.
what survived or not, was about belief, hope, and willpower.... The Koreans actually removed POW's who had strong religions beliefs and other leadership traits from the rest of the POW's ... without leadership or spiritual guidance, many people just gave up - they didn't try to escape even though there were few guards, they didn't fight back, they just died.
 

ONEWAY

Member
I would like to give a somewhat simple reply to the overall question. O how we do like our categories! Not to say categories are not appropriate, but the problem is that every person comes to the table with a worldview of their own, whether it is highly understood or developed or not. And both the evolutionary account and creation account are related to a worldview or worldviews, not to speak anything about whether they are true or not.

Hence, they should both be properly given time in the classroom. Although I disagree with the evolutionary viewpoint, in the public sphere both should be treated properly, for both are believed and argued for in science and as worldviews.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I would like to give a somewhat simple reply to the overall question. O how we do like our categories! Not to say categories are not appropriate, but the problem is that every person comes to the table with a worldview of their own, whether it is highly understood or developed or not. And both the evolutionary account and creation account are related to a worldview or worldviews, not to speak anything about whether they are true or not.

Hence, they should both be properly given time in the classroom. Although I disagree with the evolutionary viewpoint, in the public sphere both should be treated properly, for both are believed and argued for in science and as worldviews.

The scientific viewpoint should be taught in the science classroom, and the theological viewpoint should be taught in church or other religious setting. I have no issue with either or both being taught, but they are not equivalent.

Science should be taught in the science classroom. Nothing else.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I would like to give a somewhat simple reply to the overall question. O how we do like our categories! Not to say categories are not appropriate, but the problem is that every person comes to the table with a worldview of their own, whether it is highly understood or developed or not. And both the evolutionary account and creation account are related to a worldview or worldviews, not to speak anything about whether they are true or not.

Hence, they should both be properly given time in the classroom. Although I disagree with the evolutionary viewpoint, in the public sphere both should be treated properly, for both are believed and argued for in science and as worldviews.
Good grief. :facepalm: How sad.

FYI, creationism, the "creation account," is NOT "believed and argued for in science."
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
what survived or not, was about belief, hope, and willpower.... The Koreans actually removed POW's who had strong religions beliefs and other leadership traits from the rest of the POW's ... without leadership or spiritual guidance, many people just gave up - they didn't try to escape even though there were few guards, they didn't fight back, they just died.

I'm sorry can you explain what this has to do with what I posted? Do you believe that animals also suffer from "give-it-up-itis?"

I feel like that's something only humans would do as we seem to be the only species that actively fights against their survival instincts of fight or flight.

Same as your label about religion and belief, it is a very human focus, and in terms of biological science, humans are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to life.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Now hold fire all you misguided evoloutionists. Creation is true!

And we know it's true because it's written in the Bible. You ask: "So how is it known that the Bible corresponds with what is actually the truth?" The answer my friends is that the Bible is the Holy Word of God, the creator of all things. And we know that to be true becuause it is written in the Bible.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Now hold fire all you misguided evoloutionists. Creation is true!

And we know it's true because it's written in the Bible. You ask: "So how is it known that the Bible corresponds with what is actually the truth?" The answer my friends is that the Bible is the Holy Word of God, the creator of all things. And we know that to be true becuause it is written in the Bible.

Hilariously enough the Bible never says that it is overall the word of God. Certain phrases are said to be the word of God, and certain scripture is said to be true...but the book itself never says "yo everything in here is true" :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So you are saying Biologists should allow anyone to miss quote and miss use their product to promote there cause

Should biologists speak up if Salem/Winston starts to use evolution to promote the use of cigarettes. Using cigarettes will reduce the weak and make humans a stronger species.

There is no difference between doing this and using it improperly against God.

Nope, not at all. It is up to those who claim to care about what is "proper" about God to take that responsibility.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I would like to give a somewhat simple reply to the overall question. O how we do like our categories! Not to say categories are not appropriate, but the problem is that every person comes to the table with a worldview of their own, whether it is highly understood or developed or not. And both the evolutionary account and creation account are related to a worldview or worldviews, not to speak anything about whether they are true or not.

Hence, they should both be properly given time in the classroom. Although I disagree with the evolutionary viewpoint, in the public sphere both should be treated properly, for both are believed and argued for in science and as worldviews.

Different world views are taught in school in philosophy class. They are given equal time in Philosophy Religion and Theology class or in Cultural Anthropology. At out local community college they had Religion, Faith, and witchcraft for many years until the anthropology professor passed away this year. He taught biological anthropology as well, which is evolution. He was very open to belief and faith but very critical of fundamentalism. Belief is good, but extremism is an illness.

If religion (or more specifically Christianity) was brought into science class (for the sake of "equality"), would you be willing to enforce teaching evolution in sunday school in the same name of "equality"?

Btw, on a side note here. In one of the anthropology classes I took, the professor did bring up (and it was even in the textbook) the idea of God creating the world and how that could be used in science. Well... the problem is that it's not testable. God can't be tested. We can't even make a proper hypothesis and construct tests to confirm this hypothesis. Which God? How? With what? Where to look? If the only evidence is to read a book written by a sheep herder from 2,500 years ago that he wrote based on some vision or dream... uhm... that's not even worth to "science" about. It belongs to history, archeology, cultural anthropology, sociology maybe, and so on, but not biological/physical anthropology or biology. It's like having the stories by Grimm Brothers in math class.
 
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ONEWAY

Member
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview. So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations. Especially since each has their own set of beliefs of what kind of outcome they should expect. So, each should be taught in the science sphere because science is not worldview neutral, the likes of many postmodern thinkers have shown this point to be correct.

However, this does not mean by default that the worldview is true. More must be said for this to be the case. It must meet the test of experience, reality, rationality, and truth.

On another note, circular reasoning itself is not bad. This type of reasoning is used continually in our lives when we defer to an authority greater than ourselves. We say the answer is final because this authority has said so, because they are they highest and final authority. We see something of this in the U.S. Supreme Court decisions, they are the final authority in a court case's decision. We do not appeal any higher.

So, it is with the Bible. God has spoken, He has the highest authority above all authorities since He is God. No one can challenge His authority, or if they do they will in the end simply be shown to be false. His authority is supreme, so to continually appeal to the Bible as one's final authority is not wrong, in fact it is right since God is the highest authority for all of life and existence. So, the challenge comes at the level of one's worldview and one cannot simply say Christians are wrong for continually appealing to the Bible. Since God has spoken, all are accountable to Him and to what He has said.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
It occurred to me today how silly this is.

Evolution a scientific study
Creationism a philosophical study
I think it should be compatible but hardly testable. Proving that life has some sort of purposeful direction is hard to do in light of evolution. However with the diversity of life and the emergence of awareness shows that there is something more to it that science can't really pin down. We just see cause and effect yet biological life forms seem to have a mind of their own as they give rise to autonomy. So I do think that the problem of how life and awareness arose is a philosophical problem which could answer any questions of biology being created or possibly guided.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview. So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations.
You're conflating partial truths with things that don't apply. Though it is true science cannot be 100% objective, this does not mean what comes out of the creationist camps qualifies as doing science. It has been outright falsified. Point for point, it has been falsified in its methods and criticisms of mainstream science. It is not a matter of worldviews that determine the results using the scientific method. It is specifically designed to reduce biases. And though it cannot totally eliminate them, it is a far cry more than just a simple matter of one opinion being as good as the next. That is not true. The creationist's science, is bad science. Not just simply a worldview that does science differently.

Now, where worldviews do come in is when it goes beyond doing science and makes philosophical conclusions, such as in philosophical materialism. If someone says that science proves this philosophical position, that is not a conclusion of science. If that is being taught in a science classroom, that science shows that no God can exist because of evolution, that is bogus and should be thrown out along with all the other non-science, like creationism.

Creationism is not a philosophy. It is not a theology. It's just plain old junk science that doesn't measure up to modern science. It has nothing to do with worldviews and matters of equal opinion. What truth postmodernism exposes, does not apply here.

On another note, circular reasoning itself is not bad. This type of reasoning is used continually in our lives when we defer to an authority greater than ourselves. We say the answer is final because this authority has said so, because they are they highest and final authority.
Not in my world!

We see something of this in the U.S. Supreme Court decisions, they are the final authority in a court case's decision. We do not appeal any higher.
Except of course when a Supreme Court decision is reversed. And the processes of appeal that goes into that. So much for a final word.

So, it is with the Bible. God has spoken, He has the highest authority above all authorities since He is God. No one can challenge His authority, or if they do they will in the end simply be shown to be false. His authority is supreme, so to continually appeal to the Bible as one's final authority is not wrong, in fact it is right since God is the highest authority for all of life and existence.
Except of course for those who interpret this "final authority". It is not God speaking, of course. It's folks ranging from the Pope of Rome to Pat Robertson telling you their opinions of what God says as the "final authority". I reject this plea as it's full of inconsistencies and contradictions. It boils down to nothing more than simple biased opinion appealing to God to shut the mouths of those who disagree with you.

That's not how science works, by the way.

So, the challenge comes at the level of one's worldview and one cannot simply say Christians are wrong for continually appealing to the Bible. Since God has spoken, all are accountable to Him and to what He has said.
I would say they are wrong because they are appealing to their reading of the Bible, which in most cases is fraught with ignorance that they then impose upon science using unqualified hacks who claim to be doing science, and whose research has has failed peer review, and then in turn turn to popular opinion to try to appeal to emotions of the mainstream and call all that legitimate science.

It stinks. It's not science. And it's not good faith either. It's lies and manipulations that stink in the nostrils of man and God, IMHO.

I leave this with this perfect quotation from the Statement on Evolution, Botanical Society of America Here's a few excerpts from it:

"Science is not about fairness, and all explanations are not equal. Some scientific explanations are highly speculative with little in the way of supporting evidence, and they will stand or fall based upon rigorous testing. The history of science is littered with discarded explanations, e.g., inheritance of acquired characters, but these weren’t discarded because of public opinion or general popularity; each one earned that distinction by being scientifically falsified. Scientists may jump on a “band wagon” for some new explanation, particularly if it has tremendous explanatory power, something that makes sense out of previously unexplained phenomena. But for an explanation to become a mainstream component of a theory, it must be tested and found useful in doing science."

...

"What would the creationist paradigm have done? No telling. Perhaps nothing, because observing three wheat species specially created to feed humans would not have generated any questions that needed answering. No predictions are made, so there is no reason or direction for seeking further knowledge. This demonstrates the scientific uselessness of creationism. While creationism explains everything, it offers no understanding beyond, “that’s the way it was created.” No testable predictions can be derived from the creationist explanation. Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. In those few instances where predictions can be inferred from Biblical passages (e.g., groups of related organisms, migration of all animals from the resting place of the ark on Mt. Ararat to their present locations, genetic diversity derived from small founder populations, dispersal ability of organisms in direct proportion to their distance from eastern Turkey), creationism has been scientifically falsified.

Is it fair or good science education to teach about an unsuccessful, scientifically useless explanation just because it pleases people with a particular religious belief? Is it unfair to ignore scientifically useless explanations, particularly if they have played no role in the development of modern scientific concepts? Science education is about teaching valid concepts and those that led to the development of new explanations."​

[Emphasis Mine]

Say whatever you will about worldviews and opinions, it's not a matter of opinion to state that Creationism has not contributed one single thing to the applied sciences in any area. That alone disqualifies them being taught as valid science. Creationism consists of nothing better than criticisms of what it doesn't like. It contributes nothing, and is scientifically useless.
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview. So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations. Especially since each has their own set of beliefs of what kind of outcome they should expect. So, each should be taught in the science sphere because science is not worldview neutral, the likes of many postmodern thinkers have shown this point to be correct.
Sure. I agree with that the worldview is very influential in how we interpret data. And I'm glad that concept of worldview or framing is taught and considered in both sociology and psychology. I remember we had problem one or two chapters in each just about that topic, besides all other concepts in the fields that would touch on subjective experience and such.

However, this does not mean by default that the worldview is true. More must be said for this to be the case. It must meet the test of experience, reality, rationality, and truth.
Which I think anthropology succeeds in. Consider that I was a Christian, and quite a hardcore one for a while, for more than 30 years before I realized my belief was inaccurate. Evolution wasn't part of the equation, but I started to look at it honestly and from my new "worldview" and things suddenly made very much sense. In my opinion, evolution is the true explanation to how we came to be humans. I have no doubt about it. Belief isn't even required anymore after reading and studying many of the evidences that support the theory.

On another note, circular reasoning itself is not bad. This type of reasoning is used continually in our lives when we defer to an authority greater than ourselves. We say the answer is final because this authority has said so, because they are they highest and final authority. We see something of this in the U.S. Supreme Court decisions, they are the final authority in a court case's decision. We do not appeal any higher.
I'm not sure the theory of evolution is a circular reasoning. It's an interpretation, and very precise one, of hundreds of thousands of data. The Bible "theory" doesn't even come close to what you find studying anthropology.

So, it is with the Bible. God has spoken, He has the highest authority above all authorities since He is God. No one can challenge His authority, or if they do they will in the end simply be shown to be false. His authority is supreme, so to continually appeal to the Bible as one's final authority is not wrong, in fact it is right since God is the highest authority for all of life and existence. So, the challenge comes at the level of one's worldview and one cannot simply say Christians are wrong for continually appealing to the Bible. Since God has spoken, all are accountable to Him and to what He has said.
... in your opinion. That's your belief. I think you're missing out on the real truth by hiding behind a book and religion. You have bought into a standardized version of faith without consider that your religion is only an arrow or pointer and you're responsible for developing your faith beyond the words and church leader opinions.

I believe God as the compilation of all things, including you and me. When someone write a religious text, they're in one sense speaking for God, as he or she does represent "God" as a human being, but it also means that all religions, all text, everything said and done, all speak for God as the ultimate concept. We can take in and use different text to get a better picture of the totality, but also take in the truths of science to understand even better. Denying a particular science because it doesn't speak with what you believe from before, it's not honest. I feel like I'm a spokesperson for evolution simply because I know, not just believe, it's true. It's the truth, and your image of God and the world needs to adjust to fit the truth.
 
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McBell

Resident Sourpuss
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview. So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations. Especially since each has their own set of beliefs of what kind of outcome they should expect. So, each should be taught in the science sphere because science is not worldview neutral, the likes of many postmodern thinkers have shown this point to be correct.

However, this does not mean by default that the worldview is true. More must be said for this to be the case. It must meet the test of experience, reality, rationality, and truth.

On another note, circular reasoning itself is not bad. This type of reasoning is used continually in our lives when we defer to an authority greater than ourselves. We say the answer is final because this authority has said so, because they are they highest and final authority. We see something of this in the U.S. Supreme Court decisions, they are the final authority in a court case's decision. We do not appeal any higher.

So, it is with the Bible. God has spoken, He has the highest authority above all authorities since He is God. No one can challenge His authority, or if they do they will in the end simply be shown to be false. His authority is supreme, so to continually appeal to the Bible as one's final authority is not wrong, in fact it is right since God is the highest authority for all of life and existence. So, the challenge comes at the level of one's worldview and one cannot simply say Christians are wrong for continually appealing to the Bible. Since God has spoken, all are accountable to Him and to what He has said.

Except we know that the Supreme Court exists outside of the imagination.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview. So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations. Especially since each has their own set of beliefs of what kind of outcome they should expect. So, each should be taught in the science sphere because science is not worldview neutral, the likes of many postmodern thinkers have shown this point to be correct.

I'm afraid that this isn't even close to being true. Let me give you an example.

Let's say that I do an experiment that indicates to me that X causes Y, so I decide to publish this. In what I write, I will not only have to carefully define all important terms that I'm using (which is an absolutely boring pain, but it has to be done), but also I will cite previous studies that either confirm or deny what I supposedly found (science is a building process, even if it means tearing down some previous evidence).

Then when I publish my study, other scientists are free to openly support or condemn my study, and someone may run it again, or some variation of what I did, that either supports or denies my evidence.

So, even though I may have a worldview that taints my study, it's highly unlikely that this will not go unnoticed and checked out.

So, it is with the Bible. God has spoken, He has the highest authority above all authorities since He is God. No one can challenge His authority, or if they do they will in the end simply be shown to be false. His authority is supreme, so to continually appeal to the Bible as one's final authority is not wrong, in fact it is right since God is the highest authority for all of life and existence. So, the challenge comes at the level of one's worldview and one cannot simply say Christians are wrong for continually appealing to the Bible. Since God has spoken, all are accountable to Him and to what He has said.

This is especially where I have problems with so many theists. Look at what you are doing, namely stating that we have biases, which on the individual level we do but which has a check & balance to stop me from getting away with my slants in science, and yet theists believe in something called "faith", which by definition needs no evidence. If there was objectively-derived evidence that was convincing that there's a god or gods, this would be broadcast over and over again throughout the world every minute-- but simply there ain't.

Now, this doesn't mean there aren't any god or gods, but simply that such beliefs are not at all handled in the way we do science-- not even close. Creationism is a religious belief based on faith, whereas evolution is not, therefore the former simply does not belong in a science classroom even as a hypothesis, because even a hypothesis needs some objective evidence to indicate it could be true.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview.
So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations.
Problem is that you have yet to show how the world views of scientists adversely effect their work.

So, what ya got?


The nice thing about science is that it's filled with checks and balances, which keeps untoward influences to an absolute minimum. When errors are discovered they are immediately brought to light and dealt with. Creationism, not being a science, but rather a cover term for all sorts of competing creation beliefs, is never handled with such integrity. The basis of creationism essentially comes down to a single precept: "The Bible tells me so." This, and only this, is its sole mainstay.
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
My point is that our worldviews, and we all have them, affect everything we do. Science is not free from the influence of one's worldview, as much as many would like to think. Science seeeks to be objective, but the interpretation of one's results requires one to sift them through one's worldview. So, scientists who are evolutionists or creationists are looking at their results through the lense of their worldviews and this can and does effect their interpretations. Especially since each has their own set of beliefs of what kind of outcome they should expect. So, each should be taught in the science sphere because science is not worldview neutral, the likes of many postmodern thinkers have shown this point to be correct.

However, this does not mean by default that the worldview is true. More must be said for this to be the case. It must meet the test of experience, reality, rationality, and truth.

On another note, circular reasoning itself is not bad. This type of reasoning is used continually in our lives when we defer to an authority greater than ourselves. We say the answer is final because this authority has said so, because they are they highest and final authority. We see something of this in the U.S. Supreme Court decisions, they are the final authority in a court case's decision. We do not appeal any higher.

So, it is with the Bible. God has spoken, He has the highest authority above all authorities since He is God. No one can challenge His authority, or if they do they will in the end simply be shown to be false. His authority is supreme, so to continually appeal to the Bible as one's final authority is not wrong, in fact it is right since God is the highest authority for all of life and existence. So, the challenge comes at the level of one's worldview and one cannot simply say Christians are wrong for continually appealing to the Bible. Since God has spoken, all are accountable to Him and to what He has said.

Worldview has very little to do with it. It is simply demonstrably false to say the world is only 5k year old and it is not even close to being scientific to claim "god" or I.D.

Evolution can be taught in the classroom only. Creationism can go on corrupting the minds of children in Bible Study.
 

idea

Question Everything
I'm sorry can you explain what this has to do with what I posted? Do you believe that animals also suffer from "give-it-up-itis?"

I feel like that's something only humans would do as we seem to be the only species that actively fights against their survival instincts of fight or flight.

Same as your label about religion and belief, it is a very human focus, and in terms of biological science, humans are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to life.

Scientists baffled as 'suicidal' cows throw themselves off cliff in Switzerland | Mail Online


61 whales die in New Zealand mass stranding

Why have so many dogs leapt to their deaths from Overtoun Bridge? | Mail Online

BBC NEWS | Europe | Turkish sheep die in 'mass jump'
 
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