Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

InChrist · Nov 26, 2013

Benoni said:
I believe it is the whole world to include all who have not lived and all that have lived and then some.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

With the view you have you must ignore hundreds of scriptures in which God has made very detailed promises to a specific people and nation distinct from all other nations and that is Israel. I also think to have your view of universalism you must ignore hundreds of scriptures in the NT, including others in 1 Corinthians 15 from which you quoted the verse above, that repeatedly show only those who believe the gospel and have faith in Christ are saved and made alive in Him.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,1 Corinthians 15:1-4

InChrist · Nov 26, 2013

Benoni said:
Besides the Bible also says:

Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Seeing is one thing believing unto salvation is quite another...

...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

InChrist · Nov 26, 2013

Sees said:
Decades in the future some people will still say Jesus is coming any day now...it is truly remarkable that such a thing can be said over and over again for 2,000 years. Each new generation sees signs affirming their faith in the return and points to certain parts of scripture as proof.

Some people have little sayings about fool me twice, fool me three times, etc. but after many, many millions have died ready for the return this still gets them somehow.

The scriptures give specific signs to indicate the nearness of the end of the age and the return of Christ and they also say to ...watch. I don't believe the prophetic words are meant to fool anyone, but rather to alert or warn. Yes, many have said Jesus is returning and have set dates and they have been wrong, but this does not mean that the scriptures are wrong or that Christ is not coming at a certain point in time. I believe there are indicators that line up with the scriptures now that have not existed before, especially the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation. But they deliberately forget that long ago by Gods word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
2 Peter 3:3-10

Benoni · Nov 26, 2013

InChrist said:
The scriptures give specific signs to indicate the nearness of the end of the age and the return of Christ and they also say to ...watch. I don't believe the prophetic words are meant to fool anyone, but rather to alert or warn. Yes, many have said Jesus is returning and have set dates and they have been wrong, but this does not mean that the scriptures are wrong or that Christ is not coming at a certain point in time. I believe there are indicators that line up with the scriptures now that have not existed before, especially the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

I accuse you of the same ignoring and dismissing hundreds of scriptures that ultimate declare the salvation of all people. The first time I saw you name on this website I knew this was true of you. I do not ignore anything in scripture I dig beyond what the letter of the Word says so Gods Spirit can quicken my spirit so I can hear what God has to say instead of religious man.
Lets look at this verses in the context of what they are really saying not how some one sees the most hidden Devine Word that God hides from the wise and the prudent and reveals to a babe.

Benoni · Nov 26, 2013

InChrist said:
The scriptures give specific signs to indicate the nearness of the end of the age and the return of Christ and they also say to ...watch. I don't believe the prophetic words are meant to fool anyone, but rather to alert or warn. Yes, many have said Jesus is returning and have set dates and they have been wrong, but this does not mean that the scriptures are wrong or that Christ is not coming at a certain point in time. I believe there are indicators that line up with the scriptures now that have not existed before, especially the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(order) Gk Strongs NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

The Greek Word for in "en" also means (in with and by) and these words can be interchanged so you in Christ argument holds no water the translation could also say by Christ or "with Christ" all will be made alive.

Yes much of First Corinthians 15 is speaking of the why we are believers but they are to keys you are either ignoring or dismissing. First being the (in with, by) we just covered. Second being the last being vs. 23 which declares how the all in Christ will be made alive each and there own order file or rank if you look at the Greek.

Context
This verse is a perfect example of where context should be used. There is a time element and all the words line up and mean the very same thing in context, it is a perfect example for context and we should heed it deep and awesome message and not insert bias.

In the first part of the verse it reads 22 for as in Adam all die. In (in with and by), (in Adam), (with Adam), (by Adam) Amen, we all agree all die, some see this as Physical death but it is death period.
We are dead in trust passes and sin, every one of us dead, spiritually, dead physically some day if Jesus does not return, we are dead in trespasses and sin, death reigns from Adam to Christ.

Then in context the very next phase so in Christ shall all be made alive (in with and by), (in Christ), (with Christ), (by Christ) shall all be made alive.

Then Gods Word not my opinion shows us now But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Notice how it says firstfruits (plural),
The firstfruits are the very same who will rule and reign with Christ, Some say these people were the early Church, but this is not what a firstfruit is, it is not the beginning of a planting season do we get a firstfruit harvest, it is at the beginning of a harvest, and right after the firstfruit is harvested the whole harvest becomes mature and ready for picking.

Now I am going to jump out of context to show us when and where the word firstfruits are used in God's plan of the ages.

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Fathers name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Of course there are many verses to back this up but Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouths) is one of the most outstanding.

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.
The victory over sin and death (they are joined) is clearly and unmistakably the Christians alone !

.The last important part of this verse is But every man in his own order Here God is showing us He has an order of things and that in the ages to come His order is to call a;; (in/with/by Christ. But His timing not yours.

God is not calling all people now.

(order) Gk Strongs NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

Benoni · Nov 26, 2013

InChrist said:
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to youunless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Amen but lets look at what you have post here and look at the big picture of what God is doing
Gospel means good news, so what is good about the gospel if Jesus cannot save all?
If his precious blood is so weak and powerless it cannot overcome the sin of the first Adam?
How can carnal man receive? Please answer this question I need to know what you believe?
I am sure you believe carnal man has a freewill to choose but to is a religious lie

Benoni · Nov 26, 2013

InChrist said:
Seeing is one thing believing unto salvation is quite another...

...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

I totally disagree:

How can someone confess if He does not see? Hear? He is carnal and dead in trust passes and sins. How can someone believe? Confess?

1 Corinthians 2:13 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

What I see is you do not understand spiritual death.

To see God with wide open eyes at something remarkable means you are really seeing God.

We are all dead spiritually.

Really can a physical dead man.? he is physically dead

Even more with us carnal earthy men who are dead in trust passes and sin. We cannot see, hear, touch, smell etc. the realm of God.

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man. Adam was 930 years old when he physically died which are literal days not spiritual days.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

How can a carnal man beleive?
He needs to see.
hear.

InChrist · Nov 26, 2013

Hello Benoni, if you want to get into discussing the concept of universal salvation I suggest you start another thread, it could be in the Christian DIR, or wherever you think appropriate and maybe I will have the opportunity to respond. But I prefer to keep the focus of this thread on the return of Christ and the re-establishment of the nation of Israel as a major indication of the nearness of His return rather than go off topic.

Benoni · Nov 26, 2013

If you know anything about Univeral salvation for all the people God has never called; it is everything to do with the return of Christ in the ages to come.
Without the return of Christ there is no universal salvation.

I am sure you know little to nothing of the Tabernacle of David for you are to busy learning about the second coming and the rapture which are both unscriptural..

The Tabernacle of David is scriptural.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

InChrist · Nov 26, 2013

Benoni said:
If you know anything about Univeral salvation for all the people God has never called; it is everything to do with the return of Christ in the ages to come.
Without the return of Christ there is no universal salvation.

I am sure you know little to nothing of the Tabernacle of David for you are to busy learning about the second coming and the rapture which are both unscriptural..

The Tabernacle of David is scriptural.

Yes, I understand the importance of the tabernacle of David and the rebuilding of the temple and see the preparation for this taking place as another indication of the nearness of the return of the Christ the Messiah. Here is an interesting article...

As far as I see it, an amazing divine move is manifested here, he explained while we were waiting in line at the gate. The state of Israel is a part of this divine move, which will culminate in the establishment of the Third Temple.

Read more: Rebuilding Israel's Temple Mount - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Benoni · Nov 26, 2013

InChrist said:
Yes, I understand the importance of the tabernacle of David and the rebuilding of the temple and see the preparation for this taking place as another indication of the nearness of the return of the Christ the Messiah. Here is an interesting article...

“As far as I see it, an amazing divine move is manifested here,” he explained while we were waiting in line at the gate. “The state of Israel is a part of this divine move, which will culminate in the establishment of the Third Temple.”

Read more: Rebuilding Israel's Temple Mount - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Wrong.. You do not even know what the Tabernacle of David is/was. it was a small tent at the palace at Mont Zion where King David lived. it has nothing to do with the Jews and everything to do with the return of God's glory. As temple of Solomon was being built but the holy of holies where the ark of God should of been in the Tabernacle in the wildernes was empty. No ark of God. It was at Mount Zion.

Ashlandsal · Feb 1, 2014

Isaiah prophesied saying........

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Ezekiel prophesied saying........

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made [them] afraid.
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I [am] the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ingledsva · Feb 1, 2014

Ashlandsal said:
Isaiah prophesied saying........

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Ezekiel prophesied saying........

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made [them] afraid.
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I [am] the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Hello, and welcome.

I just wanted to say - please add the references so people can check out for themselves that they are accurate. Thanks.

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outhouse · Feb 1, 2014

InChrist said:
Yet, what kind of wisdom are you depending upon if you do not even consider the possibility of prophetic events being played out in world events and how that awareness may impact you personally? And is it courageous to disregard the change your own beliefs may or could have upon your eternal destiny?

Wisdom based in reality. So far every single person who has made a claim have one thing in common, they have all been wrong.

There is no such thing as eternal desitiny, if you want to beleive that your more then welcome. Just dont try and sell that to us.

InChrist · Feb 1, 2014

outhouse said:
Wisdom based in reality. So far every single person who has made a claim have one thing in common, they have all been wrong.

Actually, only those who have set a date for the return of Christ which then passes by have being wrong in common. Not all who expect His return are wrong and I believe will be be proven right when that day arrives.

There is no such thing as eternal desitiny, if you want to beleive that your more then welcome. Just dont try and sell that to us.

[/quote]

How do you KNOW with absolute certainty there is no such thing as eternal destiny?

outhouse · Feb 1, 2014

InChrist said:
How do you KNOW with absolute certainty there is no such thing as eternal destiny?

Because it was born through theology written in mythology by ancient men that did not know anything about the natural world they lived in.

those who have set a date for the return of Christ

Have all been wrong. Every single last one of them. And there has been no shortage.

I believe will be be proven right when that day arrives

What makes you so certain is the real question here.

Either way, you have nothing but faith and faith alone.

InChrist · Feb 3, 2014

outhouse said:
Because it was born through theology written in mythology by ancient men that did not know anything about the natural world they lived in.

Have all been wrong. Every single last one of them. And there has been no shortage.

What makes you so certain is the real question here.

Either way, you have nothing but faith and faith alone.

Not only faith, but the sure prophetic word of God.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-21

Anyone who reads it with even basic reading and comprehension skills and a desire to understand it realizes the Bible to be outside the category of mythology.

"Unlike mythology, the Bible has a historical framework.

Unlike mythology, the Bible has many confirmations in sciences such as biology, geology, astronomy, and archaeology.

Unlike mythology, the Bible is written as history.

Unlike mythology, the Bible contains an astounding number of fulfilled prophecies.

Unlike mythology, the Bible has transformed a countless number of lives."

Read more: How do I know the Bible is not just mythology?

Ingledsva · Feb 3, 2014

InChrist said:
Not only faith, but the sure prophetic word of God.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-21

Anyone who reads it with even basic reading and comprehension skills and a desire to understand it realizes the Bible to be outside the category of mythology.

ING -- That is pure bull.

"Unlike mythology, the Bible has a historical framework.

Unlike mythology, the Bible has many confirmations in sciences such as biology, geology, astronomy, and archaeology.

Unlike mythology, the Bible is written as history.

Unlike mythology, the Bible contains an astounding number of fulfilled prophecies.

Unlike mythology, the Bible has transformed a countless number of lives."

Read more: How do I know the Bible is not just mythology?

This stuff is so ridiculous. A possible "historical framework" does not make Gods, angels, talking snakes and donkeys, helpful survival birds, an evil Satan, Hell, or magic, real.

*

outhouse · Feb 3, 2014

InChrist said:
Not only faith, but the sure prophetic word of God.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-21

Anyone who reads it with even basic reading and comprehension skills and a desire to understand it realizes the Bible to be outside the category of mythology.

"Unlike mythology, the Bible has a historical framework.

Unlike mythology, the Bible has many confirmations in sciences such as biology, geology, astronomy, and archaeology.

Unlike mythology, the Bible is written as history.

Unlike mythology, the Bible contains an astounding number of fulfilled prophecies.

Unlike mythology, the Bible has transformed a countless number of lives."

Read more: How do I know the Bible is not just mythology?

Utter Nonsense.

The bible factually contains mythology. Its how ancient people wrote theology.

Creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A creation myth is a symbolic narrative of how the world began and how people first came to inhabit it.[2][3] A typical example of a creation myth is the one found in the Hebrew Bible.

Flood myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamian flood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis 69 found in a 700 BCE Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The bible is factully not a history or science book

InChrist · Feb 3, 2014

Myths were stories invented to explain natural phenomena like the changing seasons, the movement of the stars, etc. Using myths is not how all ancient people wrote theology. Many events recorded in the biblical scriptures are rooted in history relative to the literal nation of Israel and involving surrounding nations with literal and historical individuals. The biblical writers flatly denied teaching mythology (2 Peter 1:16) and spoke against doing so (1 Tim. 1:4). The supernatural events recorded in the scriptures, such as the creation account or the flood, are treated and recorded as matter- of fact as the other historical events in the scriptures and are referred to by the apostles and Jesus Himself as historical fact and reality.

So while there may be many ancient myths and even modern ones which people choose to entertain, I dont believe the Bible is one of them. On the contrary, the solid historical context of the scriptures along with the emphasis on prophetic fulfillment shows me that the Bible is as far from myth as possible and is clearly the revelation of God the Creator concerning life on this earth, the human condition, the impact of sin, the Savior, and His soon return.

The scriptures show that God chose to create and reveal this information specifically through the nation of Israel, the Jewish prophets and apostles (not some imaginary, non-existent storybook land and people) and if anyone takes notice the nation of Israel is again prominent and a major focus on the world scene, of His-story, just as God revealed it would be at the end of the age.

Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

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