The Strong Delusion

Ken Brown · Jul 20, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi Ken, to the contrary, you have misunderstood my posts and, thereby, the Scriptures. GOD was not pleased with the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the cursing of the ground and pain in child-birth as reminders of the displeasure of GOD with SIN/Disobedience.
One's death was/is the penalty for asserting one's authority/choice over that of the Creator GOD.
What is it about 1Pet.1:18-21 that you refuse to believe? "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. "

Hi sincerly, no, I have not misunderstood you nor the Scriptures. It is you who does not grasp what Elohim is doing. In no way does Elohim's justice require that the Innocent and Righteous blood of His Son be shed for you in your place. Here is the Truth: Elohim foreordained before the foundation of the world that He would send His Son so that all sinners could without any hesitation, put Him to death. In killing Him, and shedding His Innocent and Righteous blood, each and every sinner should be cut to the heart and realize what they have done, and then TURN from their sin. But this is according to a prescribed order, which starts with the Elect. With the Elect, this redemption by and through the shed blood of Yeshua, is an actual redemption FROM sin, to where the sinner dies with Messiah, and no longer lives as a slave to sin, but rather as a slave to righteousness. The part of Peter's verse that you do not grasp is that the redemption is from the worthless or vain way of life that a sinner lived in before they knew the Truth. Have you been redeemed out from your sinful life sincerly?

sincerly said:
The Scriptures repeatedly express the displeasure of GOD that one SINS and looks to the sacrifice for the promised redemption, rather than to cease from the disobedience in the first place. The only (Scriptural) remedy for the death penalty imposed is a blood sacrifice----An animal in the OT and Jesus fulfilled those promises in the NT.(as Peter affirmed above).

The Scriptures require that the soul which sins shall die, and they do not require that the Innocent and Righteous be put to death in their place. In fact, there are many Scriptures which condemn the placing of the punishment upon the Innocent and Righteous, in the place of the wicked, as abominable. What Diety would punish their only Innocent and Righteous child and shed their blood just so that He would be able to forgive the wicked. Don't you know that Elohim takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but would rather that they TURN from their sin and live. Do you really think that buckets of blood will satisfy Elohim, and convince Him to forgive you. That mentality was how the children of Israel wrongly interpreted the purpose of sacrifice, just as you have done, and only the blood of the sinner can atone for the blood they have shed (Num 35:33).

sincerly said:
Ken, in all the Scriptures, I fail to find one Sacrifice where the one making the sacrifice "died with the sacrifice". Also, Heb.10:4 gives this, "For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
Therefore, listen to John the Baptist as to who will take away one's sin---speaking of Jesus. John 1:36, 39. "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
That is what Peter is teaching above. And Jesus told Pilate, "for this cause came I into the world."

Sincerly, please look at 2 Cor 5:14...THEN ALL WERE DEAD. How were ALL dead? They had to be put to death WITH the Sacrifice. When the Life of ALL died, then all were dead, and Elohim is reconciled, not with the death of One, but with the death of ALL. Please re-think how you view the Sacrifice of Yeshua.

Concerning how the death of animals could not take away sin, this is true, there is no remorse or value in the shedding of an animal's blood, but with Yeshua, that is not the case, when a sinner realizes they have shed Yeshua's blood, and are cut to the heart and then a blessing occurs in that the shed blood of Yeshua causes that sinners sin to go into remission as they TURN from their iniquity (Acts 3:26). What you do not realize is that when ALL of mankind is resurrected, those who will be saved, will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child when they come to the knowledge of the Truth concerning the One whom they had pierced with their sin (Zec 12:10), and their sin will also be taken away to where they will no longer sin. This is how the Lamb of Elohim TAKES away sin. You only think He takes away the penalty of sin, not the actual sin itself. What good is it to take away a penalty when the offenders keep offending?

sincerly said:
Ken, the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience by Man is acknowledged by GOD in Deut.30:19, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
And Ezek.18 is concerning choices of mankind Not that GOD has induced any to Sin.
vs32, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye."

Sincerly, Elohim knew they would not choose obedience (Deu 31:16-21), that it was impossible for them to do so (Rom 8:7-8), and the ONLY people that can freely choose are those who have come to a Knowledge of the Truth to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). In times past, Elohim "winked" at the ignorance of choosing after other gods, but now is requiring ALL men every where to repent and choose life:

Act 17:30-31
(30) And the times of this ignorance Elohim winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(31) Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.

Elohim is patient, and His patience and goodness ultimately leads mankind to repentance (Rom 2:4), to where some will choose life by DOING good, but some will refuse to acknowledge the Truth and suffer wrath (Rom 2:6-9).

sincerly said:
Yes, the Plan of Salvation is right on track, but not in agreement with your suppositions. Adam and Eve were not of a mindset of a three year old, but fully mature and intellectually with a better IQ than any (single or multiple persons)of today. "Dominion of all creation was placed in their control. No! As yet they had not seen any evidence of death, BUT Adam had seen the "Dust" from which he was made. And experienced the Life given from GOD in Eve. HE that gave Life was fully capable to take that life back.

One didn't have to experience Evil--Evil is an intruder into GOD'S Creation of LOVE.
Ken, the Scriptures just do not agree with your eisegesis.

Sincerly, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, how can you say they were fully mature and intellectually advanced BEFORE they ate from this tree, in which they became LIKE Elohim, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22). Re-think your suppositions about Adam and Eve, because knowing that they were created in corruptible, weak, and naked flesh (1 Cor 15:42-49) should reveal to you that Elohim planned for mankind to experience moral depravity (Rom 8:20) so that they could ultimately do as Elohim did, and choose the good/light (Gen 1:4). KB

sincerly · Jul 20, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi sincerly, no, I have not misunderstood you nor the Scriptures. It is you who does not grasp what Elohim is doing. In no way does Elohim's justice require that the Innocent and Righteous blood of His Son be shed for you in your place. Here is the Truth: Elohim foreordained before the foundation of the world that He would send His Son so that all sinners could without any hesitation, put Him to death. In killing Him, and shedding His Innocent and Righteous blood, each and every sinner should be cut to the heart and realize what they have done, and then TURN from their sin.

Hi Ken, look at your own statements and their contradictions. I high-lighted the above.

Ken Brown said:
But this is according to a prescribed order, which starts with the Elect. With the Elect, this redemption by and through the shed blood of Yeshua, is an actual redemption FROM sin, to where the sinner dies with Messiah, and no longer lives as a slave to sin, but rather as a slave to righteousness.

Ken Brown said:
.

Again, you are acknowledging that Jesus' innocent blood is what pays the redemptive price of the sinner's penalty---which is death.

Ken Brown said:

The part of Peter's verse that you do not grasp is that the redemption is from the worthless or vain way of life that a sinner lived in before they knew the Truth. Have you been redeemed out from your sinful life sincerly?

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Do you grasp the reality that John 3:16 and 1Pet.1:18-21 are giving the same Redemptive message??

Ken Brown said:

The Scriptures require that the soul which sins shall die, and they do not require that the Innocent and Righteous be put to death in their place. In fact, there are many Scriptures which condemn the placing of the punishment upon the Innocent and Righteous, in the place of the wicked, as abominable. What Diety would punish their only Innocent and Righteous child and shed their blood just so that He would be able to forgive the wicked. Don't you know that Elohim takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but would rather that they TURN from their sin and live. Do you really think that buckets of blood will satisfy Elohim, and convince Him to forgive you. That mentality was how the children of Israel wrongly interpreted the purpose of sacrifice, just as you have done, and only the blood of the sinner can atone for the blood they have shed (Num 35:33).

Click to expand...

Ken, didn't the red statements above by you contradict what you just wrote? YES!.
Yes, it was a fact that a (willful)murderer was to die for killing another.(Gen9:6)

Ken Brown said:

Sincerly, please look at 2 Cor 5:14...THEN ALL WERE DEAD. How were ALL dead? They had to be put to death WITH the Sacrifice. When the Life of ALL died, then all were dead, and Elohim is reconciled, not with the death of One, but with the death of ALL. Please re-think how you view the Sacrifice of Yeshua.

Click to expand...

Ken your own words/conclusions have convicted you. Yes, Rom.3:8-23, declares all as sinners since the Sin of Adam.
The sacrifices were made for the Redemption of wickedness discovered in one's self.

Ken Brown said:

Concerning how the death of animals could not take away sin, this is true, there is no remorse or value in the shedding of an animal's blood, but with Yeshua, that is not the case, when a sinner realizes they have shed Yeshua's blood, and are cut to the heart and then a blessing occurs in that the shed blood of Yeshua causes that sinners sin to go into remission as they TURN from their iniquity (Acts 3:26). What you do not realize is that when ALL of mankind is resurrected, those who will be saved, will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child when they come to the knowledge of the Truth concerning the One whom they had pierced with their sin (Zec 12:10), and their sin will also be taken away to where they will no longer sin. This is how the Lamb of Elohim TAKES away sin. You only think He takes away the penalty of sin, not the actual sin itself. What good is it to take away a penalty when the offenders keep offending?

Click to expand...

Again, it is that innocent Blood of Jesus which you are admitting to be the saving factor in the purging of the sins/blotting out the record, but argue that GOD doesn't require the "innocent blood of HIS SON who came in the Father's name to "fulfill the Scriptures/law" performing that redeeming task.

Ken Brown said:

Sincerly, Elohim knew they would not choose obedience (Deu 31:16-21), that it was impossible for them to do so (Rom 8:7-8), and the ONLY people that can freely choose are those who have come to a Knowledge of the Truth to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). In times past, Elohim "winked" at the ignorance of choosing after other gods, but now is requiring ALL men every where to repent and choose life:

Act 17:30-31
(30) And the times of this ignorance Elohim winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(31) Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.

Elohim is patient, and His patience and goodness ultimately leads mankind to repentance (Rom 2:4), to where some will choose life by DOING good, but some will refuse to acknowledge the Truth and suffer wrath (Rom 2:6-9).

Click to expand...

Yes, GOD is patient with all persons and has no desire for anyone to perish, but those HE deems wicked/evil will suffer HIS Wrath---as proclaimed---death.

Ken Brown said:

Sincerly, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, how can you say they were fully mature and intellectually advanced BEFORE they ate from this tree, in which they became LIKE Elohim, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22). Re-think your suppositions about Adam and Eve, because knowing that they were created in corruptible, weak, and naked flesh (1 Cor 15:42-49) should reveal to you that Elohim planned for mankind to experience moral depravity (Rom 8:20) so that they could ultimately do as Elohim did, and choose the good/light (Gen 1:4). KB

Click to expand...

Ken, just because the tree was labeled "of good and evil" has no bearing on the intelligence of that pair of human Beings whom GOD MADE and deemed "Very good" at the ceasing of HIS creating.
Yes, GOD did know the consequences that Evil would bring(Had not evil angels been cast out of heaven?) and warned the couple NOT to eat of the fruit. Evil would be a foreign entity in as atmosphere of LOVE. Or are you blinded to that fact, also?

Ken Brown · Jul 21, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi Ken, look at your own statements and their contradictions. I high-lighted the above.

Ken Brown said:

But this is according to a prescribed order, which starts with the Elect. With the Elect, this redemption by and through the shed blood of Yeshua, is an actual redemption FROM sin, to where the sinner dies with Messiah, and no longer lives as a slave to sin, but rather as a slave to righteousness.[/color].

Again, you are acknowledging that Jesus' innocent blood is what pays the redemptive price of the sinner's penalty---which is death.

Do you grasp the reality that John 3:16 and 1Pet.1:18-21 are giving the same Redemptive message??

Ken, didn't the red statements above by you contradict what you just wrote? YES!.
Yes, it was a fact that a (willful)murderer was to die for killing another.(Gen9:6)

Ken your own words/conclusions have convicted you. Yes, Rom.3:8-23, declares all as sinners since the Sin of Adam.
The sacrifices were made for the Redemption of wickedness discovered in one's self.

Again, it is that innocent Blood of Jesus which you are admitting to be the saving factor in the purging of the sins/blotting out the record, but argue that GOD doesn't require the "innocent blood of HIS SON who came in the Father's name to "fulfill the Scriptures/law" performing that redeeming task.

Yes, GOD is patient with all persons and has no desire for anyone to perish, but those HE deems wicked/evil will suffer HIS Wrath---as proclaimed---death.

Ken, just because the tree was labeled "of good and evil" has no bearing on the intelligence of that pair of human Beings whom GOD MADE and deemed "Very good" at the ceasing of HIS creating.
Yes, GOD did know the consequences that Evil would bring(Had not evil angels been cast out of heaven?) and warned the couple NOT to eat of the fruit. Evil would be a foreign entity in as atmosphere of LOVE. Or are you blinded to that fact, also?

Click to expand...

Hi sincerly, I am very consistent in what I say, and someday you might recognize that. I in no way contradicted myself as you have claimed. Look, our difference is in how the redemption should be viewed. You feel the redemption is from the penalty, I believe the redemption is from the sin itself. Your redemption is a strong delusion and the redemption I believe in is the Truth. The redemption I believe in is by or though the shed blood of Yeshua, as His blood CLEANSES you from being an active sinner. You misuse His blood and become drunk on it, just as with the blood of the Saints. You need to get out of your mind the false belief of needing to shed someone's blood so you can be forgiven. KB

yoda89 · Jul 21, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi yoda, Scripturally, there was NO EVIL in the world which GOD Created until mankind choose to Disobey---Right?
GOD did not Create mankind to destroy any one. Death came about by the choice/decision since they were warned that the consequence of such action would end in "death". That is the Scriptural penalty---Right?
In LOVE, Noah preached the message of repentance and that the consequence for NOT heeding and getting aboard that saving prepared ARK that they would die. Did those who heard that 120 years of warning heed the message/warning---NO. Therefore, the death by drowning was the fault of those who chose not to Obey.

ALL throughout the Scriptures, one is shown that the ONE IN AUTHORITY is the Creator GOD and it is HIS Laws one is to submit to in Obedience. Obey and Live. It is HIS Creation and is NOT owned by HIS creatures. One has freedom to choose anything that is within HIS WILL. Choosing to be in contradiction to HIS WILL is outside of one's "freedom" range.

One's attitude and accountability will determine whether or not a raise or new car is in the future.

One is under the strong delusion when they believe that GOD'S LOVE allows them to be in disobedience to HIS WILL.

Well lets go over some verses. I'm having the hard time realizing how such as Noah and a loving God could do such things. Would you care to translate. Also were the Egyptians not of his creation?

"Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan; lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers." He also said, "Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. May God make space for Japheth, and let him live in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave." (Genesis 9:20-27 NRSV)"

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

sincerly · Jul 21, 2013

Originally Posted by sincerly

Hi yoda, Scripturally, there was NO EVIL in the world which GOD Created until mankind choose to Disobey---Right?
GOD did not Create mankind to destroy any one. Death came about by the choice/decision since they were warned that the consequence of such action would end in "death". That is the Scriptural penalty---Right?
In LOVE, Noah preached the message of repentance and that the consequence for NOT heeding and getting aboard that saving prepared ARK that they would die. Did those who heard that 120 years of warning heed the message/warning---NO. Therefore, the death by drowning was the fault of those who chose not to Obey.

ALL throughout the Scriptures, one is shown that the ONE IN AUTHORITY is the Creator GOD and it is HIS Laws one is to submit to in Obedience. Obey and Live. It is HIS Creation and is NOT owned by HIS creatures. One has freedom to choose anything that is within HIS WILL. Choosing to be in contradiction to HIS WILL is outside of one's "freedom" range.

One's attitude and accountability will determine whether or not a raise or new car is in the future.

One is under the strong delusion when they believe that GOD'S LOVE allows them to be in disobedience to HIS WILL.

yoda89 said:
Well lets go over some verses. I'm having the hard time realizing how such as Noah and a loving God could do such things. Would you care to translate. Also were the Egyptians not of his creation?

Hi Yoda, I see you made no comment or voiced no comment concerning GOD as the Creator and Authority for all things in this world as the Scriptures show and claim. You are questioning HIS LOVE.
Sure, I'll be happy to translate, but, be it known that this is not a proselyting session, but and explanation of that which the Scriptures we are exploring is actually revealing in regards to the Scriptures as a whole.

yoda89 said:
"Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan; lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers." He also said, "Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. May God make space for Japheth, and let him live in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave." (Genesis 9:20-27 NRSV)"

Yoda, It isn't said what Ham "did to him". However, from Noah's perspective it was something that should not have been done----and Ham was aware of it just as his brothers were knowledgeably.
Apparently it is the word--- "ebed"=servant; slave which offends your understanding.
That word is used 800 times in the OT and applies to all from "servants to another in authority"---which can be to a person; to nations; and angels and prophets are "servants".
We are all servants of sin prior to repentance and submission to GOD in Righteousness. Then one becomes a "servant of GOD".
One can of his own free will become a life-long servant to another person.(And that has nothing to do with ethnicity.)

yoda89 said:

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

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Yoda, this scene was some (+/-) 1800 years after the flood and the scattering of the people to all parts of the globe. The Israelites had gone into Egypt peacefully and were oppressed as a people and treated as slaves.
430 years earlier, GOD had promised Abraham that his seed would process the land of Canaan for a procession, but the "cup of iniquity" of the Canaanites was not yet full. Now was the time to possess that promised land, but Pharaoh rebelled in allowing the Israelites peacefully. Even with GOD'S warnings and the coming to pass the prophesied "plagues", Pharaoh only rebelled the more. It wasn't until that night that Pharaoh and the people were convinced that GOD was GOD and the Israelites and a mixed multitude of peoples were allowed to leave----But then Pharaoh sent his army after the Israelites to bring them back. You know the rest of the narrative.
It wasn't that GOD didn't Love the Egyptians(some went with them)---but that Egyptians failed to accept that GOD is GOD and in Love HE didn't destroy them all.

We see that message in Jericho.---Who, rebuked GOD and rebelled against HIM. Indeed, their "cup of iniquity" was overflowing". Rahab(Believed) and family alone were saved.

yoda89 said:

"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

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Yoda, there is a two fold application seen in this section of Isaiah: First is the overthrow of the the nations by Nebuchadnezzar in the establishing of the Babylonian Empire and then the Medes(Persians) as they establish their Empire and lastly as GOD subdues(in the future) all nations into "HIS Peaceful Kingdom".

HE that knows the heart will purge the land of all who prone to do wickedly.
Therefore, it isn't GOD'S People or GOD upon the Righteous people, but the Wicked upon the wicked during those "Empires". and And GOD selecting out the Righteous from the Wicked at the last day events.

yoda89 · Jul 23, 2013

sincerly said:
Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi yoda, Scripturally, there was NO EVIL in the world which GOD Created until mankind choose to Disobey---Right?
GOD did not Create mankind to destroy any one. Death came about by the choice/decision since they were warned that the consequence of such action would end in "death". That is the Scriptural penalty---Right?
In LOVE, Noah preached the message of repentance and that the consequence for NOT heeding and getting aboard that saving prepared ARK that they would die. Did those who heard that 120 years of warning heed the message/warning---NO. Therefore, the death by drowning was the fault of those who chose not to Obey.

However if you believe God is all knowing he would already have forseen their betrayal. Why would he then condemn them for something that he knew would happen. Did he also not create the serpent. How can an all loving God kill his own people for disobeying him? Its contradictory and would make him not all loving. If you view him as all not loving that explains it if so then its a contradiction.

ALL throughout the Scriptures, one is shown that the ONE IN AUTHORITY is the Creator GOD and it is HIS Laws one is to submit to in Obedience. Obey and Live. It is HIS Creation and is NOT owned by HIS creatures. One has freedom to choose anything that is within HIS WILL. Choosing to be in contradiction to HIS WILL is outside of one's "freedom" range.

Click to expand...

If fate is already predetermined we do not really have a chance to free-will. Free-will is an illusion.

sincerly · Jul 24, 2013

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi yoda, Scripturally, there was NO EVIL in the world which GOD Created until mankind choose to Disobey---Right?
GOD did not Create mankind to destroy any one. Death came about by the choice/decision since they were warned that the consequence of such action would end in "death". That is the Scriptural penalty---Right?
In LOVE, Noah preached the message of repentance and that the consequence for NOT heeding and getting aboard that saving prepared ARK that they would die. Did those who heard that 120 years of warning heed the message/warning---NO. Therefore, the death by drowning was the fault of those who chose not to Obey.

yoda89 said:
However if you believe God is all knowing he would already have forseen their betrayal. Why would he then condemn them for something that he knew would happen. Did he also not create the serpent. How can an all loving God kill his own people for disobeying him? Its contradictory and would make him not all loving. If you view him as all not loving that explains it if so then its a contradiction.

Hi Yoda, "IF" is a supposition of your own making. The narrative given reveals that HIS Creation was seen as "very good". GOD was pleased with that which HE had Created.
Did GOD want our forefathers to "fail"---NO! Therefore, We see in the narrative that GOD had made a plan of redemption BEFORE He began the Creation process.

What GOD knew is that "Evil" was not something that HE wanted in HIS Creation---nor in HIS Subjects. Therefore, the warning. HE did not create Human Beings as robots, but as free-thinking individuals subject to guiding principles which would keep them in harmony to their Creator GOD and fellow Beings. That Choice, from the beginning, carried a consequence when in conflict to the principles of correct actions.

The correct question then is NOT why did HE Condemn them? But Why did they knowing the consequence---Condemn themselves. It is seen that the LOVE of the Creator GOD rescued them from bad decisions. That Love is continuing to be seen throughout the entire narrative. Also, showing the Evil activities which were included in THAT SCRIPTURAL Narrative (and secular history) were for mankind's admonition. That Redemptive plan is still available according to that narrative.

sincerly said:
ALL throughout the Scriptures, one is shown that the ONE IN AUTHORITY is the Creator GOD and it is HIS Laws one is to submit to in Obedience. Obey and Live. It is HIS Creation and is NOT owned by HIS creatures. One has freedom to choose anything that is within HIS WILL. Choosing to be in contradiction to HIS WILL is outside of one's "freedom" range.

yoda89 said:
If fate is already predetermined we do not really have a chance to free-will. Free-will is an illusion.

The "strong delusion" is believing that GOD is the culprit rather than in seeing that One's own choosing is the problem.
It is contradiction to the laws of Love which the Creator GOD made known to all who would be in harmony with their Creator GOD.
One's "fate" is predetermined only in the sense of Obedience or disobedience and that is determined NOT BY GOD, BUT BY THE INDIVIDUAL.
God "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

look3467 · Nov 13, 2013

Hi, Ken
The strong delusion you speak about, I have issues with it.

Your are placing the burden of redemption on the individual as a means when the burden of redemption is of God.

Being placed in the flesh unwillingly, was a decision by God and not of man. So, how can the man be faulted for the separation, termed disobedience?

The burden of redemption rests on God's offering to mankind as an unblemished Sacrificial lamb.

If God did not provide a substitute, as in Issac's substitute, the ram, Issac would have been sacrificed.

Issac, representative of mankind, as Gods creation of mankind lost, is is spared and a ram offered in substitute...Jesus.

Your analogy of a parent spanking a good child to justify the bad child sins does not fit, or is not in the same category.

Mankind became lost because of creation, not because of dissonance.

Disobedience is a resultant of being lost, for mankind was placed in an environment conducive to disobedience without the help of God.

Only with the help of God can one be obedient, to a degree, but not to perfection which was the requirement of the Ten Commandments.

Falling way short of perfection because the commandments were to harsh, mankind had no hope.

How then could mankind be justified in becoming un-lost? No possible way, saved God did it Himself.
He did. In Jesus as the substitute ram, the sacrificial ram, son of man (flesh) and Son of God (Spirit) was a marked man to die for the redemption of all mankind.

Granting mankind salvation by redemption as Gods work and not by any works of mankind.

A free gift can not be earned but can be accepted, willingly, if desired, but if not, then redemption is deferred till death of the flesh and the spirit renewed at the feet of Jesus.

Disobedience, as sin, has consequences required while alive, but can be forgiven while alive upon repentance, but if not, then the wages of sins if not paid while alive, are distinguished at death of the flesh. For the wages of sin is death. Sin ends there.

Yes, Jesus did come to show us: "the way, the truth and the life" by Him.

Meaning, unless He justifies us by His death, shedding of His blood in our stead, by His resurrection, there would be no truth to life and the way to it.

As His will, that we should have choice, that all should come to Jesus willingly and not by force.

That is in agreement with His will by giving us the ability to choose.

Note. I know there is no convincing or of my converting, God loves us just the same.

Blessings, AJ

Ken Brown · Nov 17, 2013

look3467 said:
Hi, Ken
The strong delusion you speak about, I have issues with it.

Your are placing the burden of redemption on the individual as a means when the burden of redemption is of God.

Being placed in the flesh unwillingly, was a decision by God and not of man. So, how can the man be faulted for the separation, termed disobedience?

The burden of redemption rests on God's offering to mankind as an unblemished Sacrificial lamb.

If God did not provide a substitute, as in Issac's substitute, the ram, Issac would have been sacrificed.

Issac, representative of mankind, as Gods creation of mankind lost, is is spared and a ram offered in substitute...Jesus.

Your analogy of a parent spanking a good child to justify the bad child sins does not fit, or is not in the same category.

Mankind became lost because of creation, not because of dissonance.

Disobedience is a resultant of being lost, for mankind was placed in an environment conducive to disobedience without the help of God.

Only with the help of God can one be obedient, to a degree, but not to perfection which was the requirement of the Ten Commandments.

Falling way short of perfection because the commandments were to harsh, mankind had no hope.

How then could mankind be justified in becoming un-lost? No possible way, saved God did it Himself.
He did. In Jesus as the substitute ram, the sacrificial ram, son of man (flesh) and Son of God (Spirit) was a marked man to die for the redemption of all mankind.

Granting mankind salvation by redemption as Gods work and not by any works of mankind.

A free gift can not be earned but can be accepted, willingly, if desired, but if not, then redemption is deferred till death of the flesh and the spirit renewed at the feet of Jesus.

Disobedience, as sin, has consequences required while alive, but can be forgiven while alive upon repentance, but if not, then the wages of sins if not paid while alive, are distinguished at death of the flesh. For the wages of sin is death. Sin ends there.

Yes, Jesus did come to show us: "the way, the truth and the life" by Him.

Meaning, unless He justifies us by His death, shedding of His blood in our stead, by His resurrection, there would be no truth to life and the way to it.

As His will, that we should have choice, that all should come to Jesus willingly and not by force.

That is in agreement with His will by giving us the ability to choose.

Note. I know there is no convincing or of my converting, God loves us just the same.

Blessings, AJ

Hi AJ, I know how difficult it is to come out from under the belief that "God" needed a substutite to be punished in your stead. That was not the purpose for sacrifice, and the children of Israel did not understand it either as they thought "God" would be pleased with them offering a multitude of animals to die in their place.

The Truth is that Elohim desires a sinner to come out from their placing of Yeshua up on the cross by and through their sin. He desires MERCY, and not sacrifice. We give Him what He desires when we TURN from our sin, and stop the crucifying of Yeshua in our lives, thereby giving Him mercy.

Those who refuse to Love this Truth, and stop sinning from their heart, were placed under a "Strong Delusion," so as to believe a lie. The Lie is that one can be disobedient, and live, by believing that "Jesus" died in their stead and paid the penalty of their sin."

Please look at these Scriptures and apply them to Yeshua:

Pro_11:1 A false balance is abomination to Yahweh: but a just weight is his delight.

Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto Yahweh; and a false balance is not good.

Deu_19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which Yahweh thy Elohim giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Deu_27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Gen_18:23-25
(23) And Abraham drew near (to Yahweh) and said, Is it so? Will You cut off the righteous with the wicked?
(24) Perhaps there are fifty righteous within the city; is it so You will cut off and will not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones that are within it?
(25) Far be it from You to act in this way, to put to death the righteous with the wicked. Far be it from You. The Judge of all the earth, shall He not do right?

Pro_17:26 It is not right to punish a righteous man, nor is it holy to plot against righteous princes.

Exo_23:7 You shall keep far away from a false matter. And do not kill the innocent and the righteous; for I will not justify the wicked.

Pro_17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh.

Deu_25:1 "If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,

Pro_6:16 These six things doth Yahweh hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

Pro_6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

The Righteous and Innocent Blood of Yeshua was shed by ALL sinners, and Yahweh considers it an Abomination, as it is even the Abomination that causes Desolation. The murder and killing of Yeshua was a FALSE SCALE, an UNJUST BALANCE, and it is the greatest of all Abominations, yet there are those who look at it as being something that was JUST and RIGHT in satisfying the scales of their "God's" justice. Please consider these things AJ. KB

Walkntune · Nov 17, 2013

Ken Brown said:
This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

God was not out to punish man. God has always loved man and repentance of sins does nothing to change Gods mind on this. Man repenting means He has changed his mind about God. God hates sin because when man operates in his knowledge of good and evil, he runs off from God and separates himself and hides behind a fig leaf. God still comes in the cool of the day to fellowship and will even start providing for man right away even when he falls as He did Adam and Eve. Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies it remains alone but if it dies than it produces much fruit. Jesus died to produce life and was planned from the beginning. God could have remained alone but he planted a seed of love. Jesus was from the beginning.

look3467 · Nov 17, 2013

Morning, Ken
Everything you pointed out is correct. They are the absolute conditions by which mankind would have to meet in order not to sacrifice Jesus on the cross.

Can any one of us meet those conditions? Of course not! Therefore, all those conditions are met for us by Jesus, allowing us, in Jesus to meet them by Him.

Jesus was a marked man from the beginning as in: Gen_4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Looking at it spiritually, the first murder in the book of beginnings ( Genesis) is at the hands of Cain...the marked man.

The "chosen" (Abel), people are the Fathers selection, of which are offered as a sacrifice to the world to carry the mantle of redemption.

But instead, the substitute (Cain) the marked man is to be the one by which redemption should come to mankind once He is identified and killed.

Notice these key words;..." vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold...".

The number seven is key in understanding why vengeance is taken out on Cain seven times.

The bible states God created the world in six days, rested on the seventh.

If, God was to redeem His own creation, He Himself would have to pay the price for His creation becoming lost. Jesus must be, the once and for all sacrifice, from the beginning of Gods creation story to the end of it.That's the reason for the "sevenfold vengeance".

As you quoted this verse many times in your posts : "Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"..., exonerates mankind from the condition...separation. (Or in other words...death by separation)

That condition mankind could and can not do anything about as pointed out by all the required conditions explained in your posts as been a requirement for not crucifying Jesus, when Jesus was a marked man just for that Purpose.

Is that a mystery or what? Is that what mankind can not comprehend?

Try all you want not to crucify Jesus and you will find yourself sacrificing yourself to no avail. Unless the perfect lamb, unblemished is sacrificed, sin can not be forgiven.

If we can agree that salvation is of God and not of man, we can now go on to address the problem of disobedience on the individual soul.

That part is expressed in the following verse: Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Personal consequences, payable in the flesh, for the "wages of sin is death" but life afterwards, is in the hands of Jesus.

How can God offer a gift and require desire sacrifice for it? It then, would not be a gift.... of mercy.

For He desires mercy rather than sacrifice.

The great mystery question is, how could God forgive mankind as Jesus did, on the cross?

Once that is understood, by faith, salvation comes to the individual soul immediately, by the works of God in Jesus.

He is the sacrifice by which mercy is the desired gift of God.

So now, for the believer the following verse applies: Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That is now our Hymn, that we sing joyously from the depths of our hearts soul in appreciation, gratitude for the gift of salvation.

Blessings, AJ

sincerly · Nov 17, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi AJ, I know how difficult it is to come out from under the belief that "God" needed a substutite to be punished in your stead. That was not the purpose for sacrifice, and the children of Israel did not understand it either as they thought "God" would be pleased with them offering a multitude of animals to die in their place.

Hi KB, all those verses were a condemnation of the wicked/unjust/sinners for their actions which in the eyes of GOD was as in the Genesis account of Noah's day---were only evil continually.
Yes, those animal sacrifices were arranged by GOD to show symbolically that they as sinners were guilty of death and that animal was a "substitute for them" in death. It was also, symbolically of their Atonement.
However, by the time of Isaiah, those animal sacrifices meant nothing to the sinner.
GOD had much rather have the people be Obedient and therefore, no sacrifice would be needed.

Ken Brown said:
The Truth is that Elohim desires a sinner to come out from their placing of Yeshua up on the cross by and through their sin. He desires MERCY, and not sacrifice. We give Him what He desires when we TURN from our sin, and stop the crucifying of Yeshua in our lives, thereby giving Him mercy.

Ken, "All are sinners" and deserve death. By the death of Jesus Christ in the place of every sinner, we don't "give HIM Mercy"----each repentant sinner "RECEIVES MERCY FROM THE FATHER".
Jesus voluntarily gave up HIS HUMAN life so that the repentant sinner could partake of HIS eternal life. Yes, It was the Atonement of the sins of the world's population which lead Jesus Christ to perform that Loving act. Mankind had no ability to "die for his own sins" and still have life.

Ken Brown said:
Those who refuse to Love this Truth, and stop sinning from their heart, were placed under a "Strong Delusion," so as to believe a lie. The Lie is that one can be disobedient, and live, by believing that "Jesus" died in their stead and paid the penalty of their sin."

Yes, it is essential for each sinner to Repent of/from one's wicked ways and "submit" fully(Obey) to the Will of the Father.
The "strong delusion" is in thinking that Jesus Christ is NOT one's propitiation/Atonement and reconciliation to the Father.

Ken Brown said:
The Righteous and Innocent Blood of Yeshua was shed by ALL sinners, and Yahweh considers it an Abomination, as it is even the Abomination that causes Desolation. The murder and killing of Yeshua was a FALSE SCALE, an UNJUST BALANCE, and it is the greatest of all Abominations, yet there are those who look at it as being something that was JUST and RIGHT in satisfying the scales of their "God's" justice. Please consider these things AJ. KB

See above.

look3467 · Nov 18, 2013

I can see KB's point of view and sincerly's point of view as both having justification.

On KB's point, I believe the message is that of mankind's lost state condition, where obedience is as in the same issue a with Adam and Eve.

Obedience could never achieve perfection under the condition by which Adam and Eve were placed in.

By necessity, there must have been a means by which a living soul (an Adam) could achieve perfection in the flesh.

The only way possible for that to be accomplished is for God Himself be represented in the flesh, as a Son of God; begotten of God.

In so doing, that representative would take the place of all humanity as the only condemned soul.

All souls condemned to separation (death) because of the creation process can now have hope of being reconciled back to the Father via the only one soul to be lost.

Look at the following verses: Isa_53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Here we have what rightfully belongs to us, the bruising, the grief placed on Jesus as an offering, from God, to us as a gift of mercy.

So the word "pleased" should not be misinterpreted as giving the Father any pleasure in the sufferings of Jesus, but rather, pleasure that His creation by Jesus would be saved.

That is confirmed by Jesus at the cross when He cried out "Father why has thou forsaken me".

The Father, by His silence, in essence, saying to Jesus; you must fulfill/endure to the bitter end, as a requirement for the redemption of the world.

That is more in line with ...sincerly's point of view, imop.

I belong to the latter view but do understand the former view as the foundation for the meaning of the sacrifice of Jesus.Blessings, AJ

Thief · Nov 18, 2013

Ken Brown said:
This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

Got here late...sorry....

The op is about forgiveness of sin by sacrifice?...is it not?

As if your sin could be placed upon another and the sin dies with him?

What if that death was not final?
What if the sacrifice lives on?
What if you meet Him again?

What if your brother suffers greatly for something you did?

Ken Brown · Nov 19, 2013

Hi AJ, sincerly, and Thief, the goal of Elohim is to bring ALL to a knowledge of the Truth, and in that Truth, the turning of sinners FROM their sins (1 Tim 2:4, Acts 3:26, Rom 6:2). The whole process of salvation is a WORK of Elohim in saving sinners, from being sinners (Rom 6:6). The main catalyst in TURNING sinners FROM their sin, and thereby blessing those sinners, is the suffering, death, and third day resurrection of Yeshua, which sinners acknowledge responsibility for (the suffering and death part):

Act 2:36-37
(36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that Elohim hath made that same Yeshua, whom ye have crucified, both Master and Messiah.
(37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

This was the message, The Gospel of the FIRST Assembly. Sinners were told that they, with the help of wicked men, did slay or crucify Yeshua:

Act 2:23
(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Elohim, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Now, where the confusion comes in is the interpretation of Elohim's Grace. Most think that Elohim is giving all who confess that "Jesus" sacrificed himself for them, in their stead, a free gift of salvation, so that they would not have to suffer for the penalty of their sin. "Jesus" suffers for them and pays their price that would have been required of them, and if they accept this, they are saved for all eternity. They truly believe that is how the Free Gift should be explained.

The Grace of Elohim is not at all how I have just described above for those who believe in Substitutionalism-"Jesus dying in their stead." The Grace of Elohim is the FREE Gift of Righteousness that ALL sinners have, just by sinning. By sinning, ALL sinners have accomplished what the Law required them to do, for their sin, in their sacrificing of Yeshua. The Law requires ALL sinners to sacrifice when they sin, and when they do sacrifice, it is righteousness for them (a doing of the Law). Those who DO the Law are righteous before Elohim (Deu 6:25, Rom 2:13), but according to the flesh (the physical doing of the Law-by works) shall no man be declared righteous (Gal 2:16). This was the dilemma Paul had with his Jewish brethren. He tried valiantly to convince them that Yeshua was THEIR sacrifice, a Spiritual Lamb, which THEY did slay THROUGH their sin. Their problem was that they could not "see" the Spiritual side of the Law, and the Righteousness that was being freely given to them as a Gift, as they did sacrifice Yeshua by sinning.

Paul's message about Grace was TURNED to where he was supposedly saying that one should do evil so that good would result (Rom 3:8). Paul also said that IF anyone wanted this Righteousness found in Messiah's sacrifice, they HAD to be a sinner (Gal 2:17). He also said that when you increase sin, Grace abounds all the more (Rom 5:20). What you have is the fact that when there are more sinners sinning, there is more accomplishing of what the Law required that sinners should do, which is sacrifice for their sin.

Now, Paul would argue like this, and would make statements like, "should we continue in sin so that Grace increases," or "is Messiah a PROMOTER of sin?" When you understand that it is BY sinning that one accomplishes this Spiritual Righteousness, then one could say that Messiah promotes sin or that we should continue in sin so this Grace would increase. But that is not at all the PURPOSE for this Free Gift of Righteousness, the Grace of Elohim. Paul speaks about the purpose of this Grace here:

Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the grace of Elohim that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great Elohim and our Saviour Messiah Yeshua;
(14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
(15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The TRUE purpose and teaching of Elohim's Grace is to TURN a sinner FROM their sin, by realizing that their sin did slay Yeshua, and caused Him to suffer so. This Knowledge of the Truth REDEEMS us from all iniquity, and makes us ZEALOUS of good works, just as His Grace intended. Yeshua did not give Himself for us to believe that He is our substitute in keeping righteousness, He gave Himself for us so that WE could become as He is.

Those who do not RECEIVE and LOVE this Truth (knowing that your sin did slay Yeshua and that you MUST turn from it), will not be saved, but will fall under a Strong Delusion, and believe the lie of Substituionalism (2 Thess 2:10-12). KB

look3467 · Nov 20, 2013

Hi AJ, sincerly, and Thief, the goal of Elohim is to bring ALL to a knowledge of the Truth...KB

Agreed.

The whole process of salvation is a WORK of Elohim in saving sinners...>>>KB

Agreed again. The issue in question is....whose work? You said it, in your quote above. "WORK of Elohim".

It's a total work, not a half work or even a quarter work. What I mean by that is that there is absolutely no soul left out of the salvation work of God, regardless of behavioral issues.

Behavioral issues are dealt here on earth and the final payment for any sin is death physically.

Spiritually speaking, one can be spiritually dead, yet alive in the flesh. Or, one can be spiritually alive, yet alive in the flesh.

That is the goal of the Father that all should come to knowledge of the truth while yet alive in the flesh.

The difference between a believer from a none believer is the knowledge accepted as truth.Ever soul is purchased by blood at the cross.

Jesus nailed the creations penalty of eternal death on the cross to usher in the new beginnings.

Where it states that Jesus "was from the beginning", literally, was Jesus taking the penalty of separation from us and opened both doors. Heavens door and hell's door bridging that great gulf span between heaven and earth.

As it is on earth, so shall it be in heaven.

The choice was not ours to make but His!

Our choice is by invitation:Rev_22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Repeated three times has strong significance.

First Adam, second ADAM, and the third Adam......the new ADAM, the spiritual Adam. The born again Adam.

Confirmed by the following verse: Gen_41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

That....friends is Gods work!

Blessings, AJ

sincerly · Nov 20, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi AJ, sincerly, and Thief, the goal of Elohim is to bring ALL to a knowledge of the Truth, and in that Truth, the turning of sinners FROM their sins (1 Tim 2:4, Acts 3:26, Rom 6:2). The whole process of salvation is a WORK of Elohim in saving sinners, from being sinners (Rom 6:6). The main catalyst in TURNING sinners FROM their sin, and thereby blessing those sinners, is the suffering, death, and third day resurrection of Yeshua, which sinners acknowledge responsibility for (the suffering and death part):

Act 2:36-37
(36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that Elohim hath made that same Yeshua, whom ye have crucified, both Master and Messiah.
(37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

This was the message, The Gospel of the FIRST Assembly. Sinners were told that they, with the help of wicked men, did slay or crucify Yeshua:

Act 2:23
(23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Elohim, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Now, where the confusion comes in is the interpretation of Elohim's Grace. Most think that Elohim is giving all who confess that "Jesus" sacrificed himself for them, in their stead, a free gift of salvation, so that they would not have to suffer for the penalty of their sin. "Jesus" suffers for them and pays their price that would have been required of them, and if they accept this, they are saved for all eternity. They truly believe that is how the Free Gift should be explained.

The Grace of Elohim is not at all how I have just described above for those who believe in Substitutionalism-"Jesus dying in their stead." The Grace of Elohim is the FREE Gift of Righteousness that ALL sinners have, just by sinning. By sinning, ALL sinners have accomplished what the Law required them to do, for their sin, in their sacrificing of Yeshua. The Law requires ALL sinners to sacrifice when they sin, and when they do sacrifice, it is righteousness for them (a doing of the Law). Those who DO the Law are righteous before Elohim (Deu 6:25, Rom 2:13), but according to the flesh (the physical doing of the Law-by works) shall no man be declared righteous (Gal 2:16). This was the dilemma Paul had with his Jewish brethren. He tried valiantly to convince them that Yeshua was THEIR sacrifice, a Spiritual Lamb, which THEY did slay THROUGH their sin. Their problem was that they could not "see" the Spiritual side of the Law, and the Righteousness that was being freely given to them as a Gift, as they did sacrifice Yeshua by sinning.

Paul's message about Grace was TURNED to where he was supposedly saying that one should do evil so that good would result (Rom 3:8). Paul also said that IF anyone wanted this Righteousness found in Messiah's sacrifice, they HAD to be a sinner (Gal 2:17). He also said that when you increase sin, Grace abounds all the more (Rom 5:20). What you have is the fact that when there are more sinners sinning, there is more accomplishing of what the Law required that sinners should do, which is sacrifice for their sin.

Now, Paul would argue like this, and would make statements like, "should we continue in sin so that Grace increases," or "is Messiah a PROMOTER of sin?" When you understand that it is BY sinning that one accomplishes this Spiritual Righteousness, then one could say that Messiah promotes sin or that we should continue in sin so this Grace would increase. But that is not at all the PURPOSE for this Free Gift of Righteousness, the Grace of Elohim. Paul speaks about the purpose of this Grace here:

Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the grace of Elohim that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great Elohim and our Saviour Messiah Yeshua;
(14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
(15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The TRUE purpose and teaching of Elohim's Grace is to TURN a sinner FROM their sin, by realizing that their sin did slay Yeshua, and caused Him to suffer so. This Knowledge of the Truth REDEEMS us from all iniquity, and makes us ZEALOUS of good works, just as His Grace intended. Yeshua did not give Himself for us to believe that He is our substitute in keeping righteousness, He gave Himself for us so that WE could become as He is.

Those who do not RECEIVE and LOVE this Truth (knowing that your sin did slay Yeshua and that you MUST turn from it), will not be saved, but will fall under a Strong Delusion, and believe the lie of Substituionalism (2 Thess 2:10-12). KB

Hi KB, like your nose, the purpose of the death and suffering of Jesus Christ isn't what the eyes are focused upon; and therefore, what is in focus is what is being considered. Those verses do not express that Believers in Jesus Christ do NOT accept the Suffering of Jesus Christ as belonging to them and that their disobedience was responsible for HIS death. Jesus Christ certainly did not deserve to have been Crucified. Every person of the human race is the culprit who should have been on that cross.
The point of focus is neither you, I, nor any other person was/is able to Die the death which is due us and live. However, as the Scriptures declare, Jesus of HIS OWN decision chose to take our place upon that cross.
Thank GOD the Father for allowing HIS Son to be our propitiation.(substitute.)
If you should deny HIM that action, then you will have to die the death from which there is no "Resurrection" provided.

Ken Brown · Nov 23, 2013

Hi AJ, sincerly, and Thief if you are still around. Most do not properly understand Elohim's plan, and they assume that Adam and Eve foiled that plan by sinning, and then Elohim had to alter His plan so that He would remedy the foiling caused by Adam and Eve. The "remedy" needed a substitute to die in the place of Adam and Eve and all sinners that followed, so that Elohim could be able to forgive. This misunderstanding is what gives rise to the Strong Delusion.

As AJ has pointed out, I quote Romans 8:20-21 quite often to express that it was Elohim who subjected mankind to "moral depravity/vanity." I also use Romans 11:32 where it states that Elohim is the One who consigned or "shut up" all to disobedience. And then I show where Paul states that he, "being flesh," is sold into the slavery of sin (Rom 7:14).

This being "sold" into the slavery of sin (by being flesh), is what Elohim is redeeming us out of through OUR sacrificing of His Son, and this was His Plan all along, from the beginning, even BEFORE fleshly man was created. Adam and Eve did not "foil" anything, they did EXACTLY as they were created to do, for carnal man cannot and will not submit to what Elohim commands (Romans 8:7-8), it is impossible for them to do so.

Elohim desires that we learn BOTH good and evil, and then seeing the result of that evil (suffering and death) we choose the good. Yeshua, in His suffering and death, is able to set us FREE from the evil we were created under, by showing us the Truth of what our sin did to Him:

Jn 8:31 - 8:31
(31) Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

And what is it that the Truth, about our sacrificing of Yeshua, frees us from? Does it free us from the "penalty" of sin, or the "slavery" of sin?

Jn 8:34 - 8:36
(34) Yeshua answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin. (35) And the slave abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. (36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The whole purpose of Elohim's Plan is the redeem us OUT from the slavery to sin, just as the passover lamb redeemed the slaves out from Egypt. That lamb was not dying in the place of the slaves, that lambs blood was shed so that those who would be delivered and saved could be "identified" with and by the blood of that lamb. In the same way, Believers who are being delivered out from their sin, are identified with Yeshua, through His suffering and death (dying with Him), and then rising up to a new life, IN His Life. Is not the LIFE in the Blood? Those who rise up IN His Life, drink IN His Life, or drink His Blood, as there is no life outside of Him. This is the birth, or new life that is given to us, as we are delivered OUT from the slavery to sin.

John states it very well:

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of Elohim doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of Elohim.

(1Jn 5:18) We know that no one who is born of Elohin sins; but He who was born of Elohim keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

This is the "blessing" we receive as we are delivered and turned from all our iniquities (Acts 3:26), having our sin go INTO remission.

And finally, concerning forgiveness, does it take the shedding of blood for Elohim to forgive? Absolutely not! But it does take the shedding of blood to bring about the remission of sin in a sinners life (the sinner shedding Yeshua's blood produces a cessation from sin, if they accept they did slay or crucify Him by sinning). And once a sinner's sin goes into remission, there is forgiveness, non of his former sins will be remembered:

Eze 18:21 - 18:22
(21) But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. (22) All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

This forgiveness, or not remembering any of the former sins, is because of the sinner TURNING from their iniquities, not because a substitute is dying in their place or being righteous for them in their stead. As the Scripture states:

(Eze 14:14) even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves, declares Yahweh Elohim.

(Eze 14:20) even though Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, as I live, declares Yahweh Elohim, they could not deliver either their son or their daughter. They would deliver only themselves by their righteousness.

Righteousness cannot be substituted, as we need to PROVE ourselves to be blameless and innocent in this perverse generation, thereby saving ourselves, and not toiling in vain:

Php 2:15 - 2:16
(15) so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of Elohim above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, (16) holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Messiah I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

I hope this helps to further explain. KB

sincerly · Nov 23, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi AJ, sincerly, and Thief if you are still around. Most do not properly understand Elohim's plan, and they assume that Adam and Eve foiled that plan by sinning, and then Elohim had to alter His plan so that He would remedy the foiling caused by Adam and Eve. The "remedy" needed a substitute to die in the place of Adam and Eve and all sinners that followed, so that Elohim could be able to forgive. This misunderstanding is what gives rise to the Strong Delusion.

According to Scripture, as you have been shown, It is you who failed to see the plan the Creator GOD had from the beginning.
Your post makes GOD a villian. HE creates all things and them sets them up to fail-thereby meeting HIS Plan. That scheme of yours isn't even close to being in line with "GOD is Love".

All that GOD made during that Creation week was stated by GOD to be "Very Good". Gen.1:31.
GOD didn't Create all things "very good" to then "curse it for their sake". Don't you think you should re-think your conclusion, because the scriptures you presented are correct, just mis-applied?

Ken Brown · Nov 23, 2013

sincerly said:
According to Scripture, as you have been shown, It is you who failed to see the plan the Creator GOD had from the beginning.
Your post makes GOD a villian. HE creates all things and them sets them up to fail-thereby meeting HIS Plan. That scheme of yours isn't even close to being in line with "GOD is Love".

All that GOD made during that Creation week was stated by GOD to be "Very Good". Gen.1:31.
GOD didn't Create all things "very good" to then "curse it for their sake". Don't you think you should re-think your conclusion, because the scriptures you presented are correct, just mis-applied?

Hi sincerly, Elohim is not a villain. His plan was "very good," as He forms the light, and creates evil as well:

(Isa 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yahweh do all these [things].

He placed mankind in the flesh, and allowed them to dwell in darkness until He sent forth His Light (John 3:19-21). Why is that hard for you to believe?

Let our immune system and inoculations teach you what Elohim's plan is. Mankind had to be exposed to sin (sin of the flesh-the less deadly form of sin) so that we could be protected against the fatal disease of sinning against the Spirit. KB

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