Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?

JayJayDee said:

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The real difference between Jews and Christians is acceptance of Jesus as Messiah.

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Completely false. :slap:

JayJayDee said:

"Jewish" is a designation that one is a son of Abraham. You have to be born of at least one Jewish parent to be considered "Jewish". I don't know the technicalities, but it would appear that either parent could pass on the lineage to Abraham.

Timothy was born of a Jewish mother and a Greek father. He was 'taught the holy writings from infancy' by his mother and grandmother, yet he was not circumcised. As men are the head of the household, Timothy's Greek father may not have consented to it. Paul circumcised Timothy later, so that he would not stumble Jewish people who were loyal to God's law.

The real difference between Jews and Christians is acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. I don't know how anyone coming into the world today and claiming to be the Jewish Messiah, could fulfill prophesy more than Jesus did. His genealogy for a start could not be proven as all the records were destroyed when Jerusalem was taken by the Romans in 70 C.E.
So many of the "Messianic prophesies" were open to interpretation, so some of them had no real application at all but were used as evidence that Jesus was not "the one".

Jesus denounced the Jewish religious leaders of the day for their attitude towards the written word of God, instead preferring the flawed interpretation of arrogant men who were responsible for "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" being "lost" in the first place.

Christendom repeated their mistake, as foretold, preferring the traditions of men rather than the word of God. Men always apostatise. This is why sticking to what is written is more reliable.

When Jesus replied to satan in the temptations, each time he said "it is written".

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That would make sense, but the current consensus names the mother as the only capable parent of passing the Jewish identification. Ask any Jew here, or there.

I want to know why.


Men do falter. So, it is a foolish thing to rely wholeheartedly on men's perception, whether it be displayed in word, or in action. The command says to love God wholeheartedly. How is this done by men?

It is easy to accept the preconceived notions and stigmatizations of the world we are born and introduced into. So the command says, 'test the spirits.'

CMike said:

No it doesn't.

Tribal lineage goes solely by the biological father.

Inheritance of money can be for the daughter as well, but that's not what we are talkign about.

You don't get to make up jewish law.

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If a daughter is born to a man of a certain tribe, is she considered to be of her fathers tribe or not?

Numbers 36:6-8 indicates that the daughters were every part as much the tribe of her father as the father himself.

Me Myself said:

Completely false. :slap:

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And......

Did Jesus come to establish a new religion? Or did he come to fix up the old one that had gone completely off the rails? Did he come to tell people that a human being could be "fully god but at the same time fully man"? Show me where it says that in scripture.

Jesus showed everyone how to worship the Father "in spirit and truth".....both Jews and Gentiles could follow his excellent example of reasonable faith...not one based on an endless list of rigid rules and empty performances; on human tradition and loveless judgment, but on the word of God.....highlighting the mercy and forgiveness of the Father. This message attracted the right hearts....the 'lost sheep' who had been made to feel worthless and unredeemable.

What was the wall between Christians and Jews? Acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. What else?

JayJayDee said:

And......

Did Jesus come to establish a new religion? Or did he come to fix up the old one that had gone completely off the rails? Did he come to tell people that a human being could be "fully god but at the same time fully man"? Show me where it says that in scripture.

Jesus showed everyone how to worship the Father "in spirit and truth".....both Jews and Gentiles could follow his excellent example of reasonable faith...not one based on an endless list of rigid rules and empty performances; on human tradition and loveless judgment, but on the word of God.....highlighting the mercy and forgiveness of the Father. This message attracted the right hearts....the 'lost sheep' who had been made to feel worthless and unredeemable.

What was the wall between Christians and Jews? Acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. What else?

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There are jews that do think Jesus is the messiah. :slap:

The false dichotomies you are presenting are subject for another thread though.

metis said:

There is no "old covenant" because Torah states over and over again that God will not break His word to us, and that the Covenant is "forever" and "perpetual". Also, it seems you're assuming that I don't abide by the Mosaiic Law, so what is your basis for that assumption?

Secondly, being "Jewish" is a nationality, not a religion. My wife is an Italian who's Christian, so do you think she would be not considered Italian if she doesn't agree with you?

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Metis, I didn't realize you believe the literal word of Torah, as you quote above. My own view is that G-d is not so anthropomorphic as to "give us his word". Our Covenent is what we make of it.

I am also interested in your view on Judaism as a nationality and religion. I believe it is both.

JayJayDee said:

You have to be born of at least one Jewish parent to be considered "Jewish". I don't know the technicalities, but it would appear that either parent could pass on the lineage to Abraham.

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To be considered Jewish, one either has to a) have a Jewish mother or b) have undergone a proper conversion. Tribal status is passed on by the father, only to Jewish direct offspring. So a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father equate to non-Jewish offspring. A person that properly converts is Jewish, but doesn't have a tribe.

JayJayDee said:

The real difference between Jews and Christians is acceptance of Jesus as Messiah.

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While this is a difference, it isn't the major difference. IMO, the biggest different between our two religions is the definition and method of atonement for sin.

JayJayDee said:

I don't know how anyone coming into the world today and claiming to be the Jewish Messiah, could fulfill prophesy more than Jesus did.

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As jesus fulfilled ZERO prophecies, he doesn't have a tough record to break assuming he ever existed. Bar Kochba was far more successful, he did three prophecies.

JayJayDee said:

His genealogy for a start could not be proven as all the records were destroyed when Jerusalem was taken by the Romans in 70 C.E.

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I don't know who starts this silliness. There were Jews living all over the Middle East and around the Mediterranean. To state that all records for the Jews were stored in just one single location defies all logic. Before the internet and the internal combustion engine, how could that even be possible? And why would Jews located elsewhere store their records thousands of miles away from where they lived?

JayJayDee said:

So many of the "Messianic prophesies" were open to interpretation, so some of them had no real application at all but were used as evidence that Jesus was not "the one".

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And the converse is that Christians use their own interpretations to make everything about their idol. The messianic prophecies are all stately clearly and plainly. As jesus failed every one of them, those with an agenda have to twist and pervert them to contort them to mean something else.

Me Myself said:

There are jews that do think Jesus is the messiah. :slap:

The false dichotomies you are presenting are subject for another thread though.

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Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah fall into two categories....ones who call themselves Christians, who accept Paul's writings, and those who see themselves as still Jewish but reject Paul's replacement theology.

Both cannot be correct.

There is no false dichotomy. It is clearly a matter of choosing your position.

Akivah said:

To be considered Jewish, one either has to a) have a Jewish mother or b) have undergone a proper conversion. Tribal status is passed on by the father, only to Jewish direct offspring. So a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father equate to non-Jewish offspring. A person that properly converts is Jewish, but doesn't have a tribe.

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It is my understanding that if a person was a Jewish convert, even though he lived and worshipped the same as Jews did, limitations were placed on proselytes that were not applicable to natural born Jews. No tribe, for example meant what for them?

While this is a difference, it isn't the major difference. IMO, the biggest different between our two religions is the definition and method of atonement for sin.

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Can you tell me why Jews no longer offer sacrifices prescribed under the law?
How is atonement achieved since the animal sacrifices were discontinued? Where does it say in the Torah to stop the sacrifices?

As jesus fulfilled ZERO prophecies, he doesn't have a tough record to break assuming he ever existed. Bar Kochba was far more successful, he did three prophecies.

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Can I have a reference or a list of said prophesies please? I would like to see them.

I don't know who starts this silliness. There were Jews living all over the Middle East and around the Mediterranean. To state that all records for the Jews were stored in just one single location defies all logic. Before the internet and the internal combustion engine, how could that even be possible? And why would Jews located elsewhere store their records thousands of miles away from where they lived?

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Thank you, there is another point for research. Could you provide some proof for your claim that other records were available outside Jerusalem?

And the converse is that Christians use their own interpretations to make everything about their idol.

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The Messiah is hardly an idol. Will the Messiah that you still await do more than Jesus did? Can you trust the Pharisees of Jesus' day to not have executed an innocent man? Pilate found no grounds for the death penalty, yet the people cried out for it, having been convinced that he was a fraud.
Only when the Jews threatened Pilate's political position, did he acquiesce, wash his hands of the man's blood and hand him over to be impaled.

The messianic prophecies are all stately clearly and plainly. As jesus failed every one of them, those with an agenda have to twist and pervert them to contort them to mean something else.

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Let's examine those prophesies that Jesus did not fulfill. Not one of them, you say? Please supply them so we can see how many he failed to fulfill.

Thanks.

JayJayDee said:

And......

Did Jesus come to establish a new religion? Or did he come to fix up the old one that had gone completely off the rails? Did he come to tell people that a human being could be "fully god but at the same time fully man"? Show me where it says that in scripture.

Jesus showed everyone how to worship the Father "in spirit and truth".....both Jews and Gentiles could follow his excellent example of reasonable faith...not one based on an endless list of rigid rules and empty performances; on human tradition and loveless judgment, but on the word of God.....highlighting the mercy and forgiveness of the Father. This message attracted the right hearts....the 'lost sheep' who had been made to feel worthless and unredeemable.

What was the wall between Christians and Jews? Acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. What else?

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Actually, Shermana and I discussed this precise question you have a while back on a thread that ended up getting closed. I wonder if he remembers enough to explain it Back to you.

dantech said:

Actually, Shermana and I discussed this precise question you have a while back on a thread that ended up getting closed. I wonder if he remembers enough to explain it Back to you.

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Do you remember the title? Or do you have a link? That would be worth reading

Pegg said:

If a daughter is born to a man of a certain tribe, is she considered to be of her fathers tribe or not?

Numbers 36:6-8 indicates that the daughters were every part as much the tribe of her father as the father himself.

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She has no tribe to pass down.

JayJayDee said:

"Jewish" is a designation that one is a son of Abraham. You have to be born of at least one Jewish parent to be considered "Jewish". I don't know the technicalities, but it would appear that either parent could pass on the lineage to Abraham.

Timothy was born of a Jewish mother and a Greek father. He was 'taught the holy writings from infancy' by his mother and grandmother, yet he was not circumcised. As men are the head of the household, Timothy's Greek father may not have consented to it. Paul circumcised Timothy later, so that he would not stumble Jewish people who were loyal to God's law.

The real difference between Jews and Christians is acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. I don't know how anyone coming into the world today and claiming to be the Jewish Messiah, could fulfill prophesy more than Jesus did. His genealogy for a start could not be proven as all the records were destroyed when Jerusalem was taken by the Romans in 70 C.E.
So many of the "Messianic prophesies" were open to interpretation, so some of them had no real application at all but were used as evidence that Jesus was not "the one".

Jesus denounced the Jewish religious leaders of the day for their attitude towards the written word of God, instead preferring the flawed interpretation of arrogant men who were responsible for "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" being "lost" in the first place.

Christendom repeated their mistake, as foretold, preferring the traditions of men rather than the word of God. Men always apostatise. This is why sticking to what is written is more reliable.

When Jesus replied to satan in the temptations, each time he said "it is written".

Click to expand...

You got several things wrong

1) one is jewish if his or her mother is jewish or he or she converts.

2) tribal lineage goes solely via the biological father

3) I think what ****** off jesus is that the jesus leaders denounced him as a false messiah

4) It was jesus who was arrogant who tried to challenge the words of G-D and claim himself as a divine being

JayJayDee said:

Do you remember the title? Or do you have a link? That would be worth reading

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http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/140240-maternal-lineage-judaism-4.html

I gave my first reply in page 4, which went on for another 7 pages of backs and forths.

Give it a read, and let me know what you think.

dantech said:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/140240-maternal-lineage-judaism-4.html

I gave my first reply in page 4, which went on for another 7 pages of backs and forths.

Give it a read, and let me know what you think.

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I will give it a read later when I have time to evaluate the conversation. Thanks.

CMike said:

You got several things wrong

1) one is jewish if his or her mother is jewish or he or she converts.

2) tribal lineage goes solely via the biological father

3) I think what ****** off jesus is that the jesus leaders denounced him as a false messiah

4) It was jesus who was arrogant who tried to challenge the words of G-D and claim himself as a divine being

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Jesus never challenged the words of God. He challenged Pharisee misinterpretation, and took on a Shammai-ish stance. As for claiming to be a Divine being, that's another story. But he most certainly did not claim to be God as the Trinitarians insist.

Since it has been claimed that Jesus did not fulfill a single Messianic prophesy, can someone provide us with a list of these prophesies?

I would really like to see them and research them for myself.

Dantech said:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...judaism-4.html

I gave my first reply in page 4, which went on for another 7 pages of backs and forths.

Give it a read, and let me know what you think.

Click to expand...

Sorry Dantech, I tried to read the conversation but I'm afraid I am not acquainted sufficiently with Judaism to understand a lot of it.
Never mind, I will just ask relevant questions as they arise.

Can I ask why the mother must be Jewish for her child to be considered "Jewish" but not the father? In a patriarchal society, I find that rather strange.

Here is a reply to someone else who asked this question in a Watchtower magazine.

Can I get a Jewish opinion on this please?

Is it possible to say exactly how many Messianic prophecies are contained in the Hebrew Scriptures?

A careful study of the Hebrew Scriptures enables us to identify dozens of prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. These prophecies foretold details of the Messiah’s background, time of appearance, actions, treatment, and place in Jehovah God’s arrangement. They combine to form one grand picture that helps us to identify Jesus as the Messiah. However, caution is needed if we try to determine exactly how many Messianic prophecies are found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Not everyone agrees on what is or is not a Messianic prophecy. In his book The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim stated that the ancient rabbinic writings classified 456 passages from the Hebrew Scriptures as Messianic, although many of them do not specifically mention the Messiah. A close look at these 456 passages raises questions as to whether some of them are prophetic of Jesus Christ. For example, Edersheim said that the Jews regarded Genesis 8:11 as Messianic. They held that “the olive-leaf, brought by the dove, was taken from the Mount of the Messiah.” The author also mentioned Exodus 12:42. Explaining how the Jews incorrectly understood this text, he wrote: “As Moses came out of the desert, so would the Messiah come out of Rome.” Many scholars and others would undoubtedly find it hard to relate these two texts and erroneous explanations to Jesus Christ.

Even if we restrict our attention to those prophecies that were actually fulfilled in Jesus Christ, we encounter difficulties agreeing on an exact number. Take, for example, Isaiah chapter 53, which contains several prophetic features regarding the Messiah. Isaiah 53:2-7 prophesies: “No stately form does he have . . . He was despised and was avoided by men . . . Our sicknesses were what he himself carried . . . He was being pierced for our transgression . . . He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering.” Should this whole passage in Isaiah chapter 53 be counted as one Messianic prophecy, or should each of these characteristics of the Messiah be viewed as a separate prophecy in its own right?

Consider, too, Isaiah 11:1, which reads: “There must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful.” In verse 10, this prophecy appears again, with similar wording. Should we count these two verses as two separate prophecies or as one prophecy that is repeated? The conclusions reached on Isaiah chapter 53 and Isaiah chapter 11 would clearly affect the total number of Messianic prophecies.

Hence, we do well to avoid being specific about the total number of Messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. Jehovah’s organization has published lists showing dozens of prophecies concerning Jesus and their fulfillment. These lists can be of assistance and encouragement to us in our personal and family study and in our public ministry. Moreover, the numerous Messianic prophecies, whatever their number, give us solid evidence that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah." (8/11 2011 WT)

How many messianic prophesies do Jews believe there are?

Here is our list. (sorry it hasn't copied well but you get the general gist.)
I'll have to post it in a few sections as it's too long for one post.

OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT
Prophecy.........Event.........Fulfillment

Gen. 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah Luke 3:23-33; Matt. 1:2-16;
Heb. 7:14

Ps. 132:11; From the family of Matt. 1:1, 6-16;
Isa. 9:7; David the son of Jesse Mt 9:27; 15:22;
Isa 11:1, 10 Mt 20:30, 31;
Mt 21:9, 15; 22:42;
Mark 10:47, 48;
Luke 1:32; 2:4;
Lu 3:23-32;
Lu 18:38, 39;
Acts 2:29-31;
Ac 13:22, 23;
Rom. 1:3; 15:8, 12

Mic. 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Luke 2:4-11; John 7:42

Isa. 7:14 Born of a virgin Matt. 1:18-23;
Luke 1:30-35

Jer. 31:15 Babes killed after Matt. 2:16-18
his birth

Hos. 11:1 Called out of Egypt Matt. 2:15

Mal. 3:1; 4:5; Way prepared before Matt. 3:1-3; 11:10-14;
Isa. 40:3 Mt 17:10-13;
Mark 1:2-4;
Luke 1:17, 76; 3:3-6;
Lu 7:27;
John 1:20-23; 3:25-28;
Acts 13:24; 19:4

Dan. 9:25 Appeared as Messiah Presented himself
at end of 69 “weeks” for baptism and was
anointed on schedule
in 29 C.E.
(Luke 3:1, 21, 22)

Isa. 61:1, 2 Commissioned Luke 4:18-21

Zech. 11:12 Betrayed for 30 Matt. 26:15; 27:3-10;
pieces of silver Mark 14:10, 11

Zech. 13:7 Disciples scatter Matt. 26:31, 56;
John 16:32

Ps. 2:1, 2 Roman powers and Matt. 27:1, 2;
leaders of Israel Mark 15:1, 15;
act together against Luke 23:10-12;
anointed of Jehovah Acts 4:25-28

Isa. 53:8 Tried and condemned Matt. 26:57-68;
Mt 27:1, 2, 11-26;
John 18:12-14,
Joh 18:19-24, 28-40;
Joh 19:1-16

Ps. 27:12 Use of false Matt. 26:59-61;
witnesses Mark 14:56-59

Isa. 53:7 Silent before Matt. 27:12-14;
accusers Mark 14:61; 15:4, 5;
Luke 23:9; John 19:9

Ps. 69:4 Hated without cause Luke 23:13-25;
John 15:24, 25;
1 Pet. 2:22

Isa. 50:6; Struck, spit on Matt. 26:67; 27:26, 30;
Mic. 5:1 John 18:22; 19:3

Ps. 22:16, ftn. Impaled Matt. 27:35;
Mark 15:24, 25;
Luke 23:33;
John 19:18, 23;
Joh 20:25, 27

Ps. 22:18 Lots cast for Matt. 27:35;
garments John 19:23, 24

Isa. 53:12 Numbered with sinners Matt. 26:55, 56; 27:38;
Luke 22:37

Ps. 22:7, 8 Reviled while on Matt. 27:39-43;
stake Mark 15:29-32

Ps. 69:21 Given vinegar and Matt. 27:34, 48;
gall Mark 15:23, 36
Isa. 9:1, 2 Ministry caused Matt. 4:13-16
people in Naphtali
and Zebulun to see
great light

Ps. 78:2 Spoke with Matt. 13:11-13, 31-35
illustrations

Isa. 53:4 Carried our sicknesses Matt. 8:16, 17

Ps. 69:9 Zealous for Jehovah’s Matt. 21:12, 13;
house Mark 11:15-18;
Luke 19:45, 46;
John 2:13-17

Isa. 42:1-4 As Jehovah’s servant, Matt. 12:14-21
would not wrangle in
streets

Isa. 53:1 Not believed in John 12:37, 38;
Rom. 10:11, 16

Zech. 9:9; Entry into Jerusalem Matt. 21:1-9;
Ps. 118:26 on colt of a donkey; Mark 11:7-11;
hailed as king and Luke 19:28-38;
the one coming in John 12:12-15
Jehovah’s name

Isa. 28:16; Rejected, but becomes Matt. 21:42, 45, 46;
Isa 53:3; chief cornerstone Acts 3:14; 4:11;
Ps. 69:8; 1 Pet. 2:7
Ps 118:22, 23