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Marriage vows - Evil according to God?

#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
Matthew 5:34-37
New International Version (NIV)
34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

This is one of many scriptures that are disregarded by many Christians. I say this because as you can see in scripture 34, it tells people NOT to swear an oath AT ALL. But as a "Christian" nation, all our offices of power are SWORN into it. Now, there are many oaths taken everyday but the one that MOST if not ALL Christians cherish the most is the marriage vow. Let's take a look a good look at this.
Vow is: (according to Merriam-Webster)
1: to promise solemnly : swear
2: to bind or consecrate by a vow

Now the scripture continues to say that regardless of it's intent (good or bad), you shouldn't do it. But can you still get married without the vow? Many people will say no. They have been TAUGHT to believe that the ceremony is Holy, however, the scriptures above CLEARLY state that taken a vow is not of God and even scripture 37 it states, "All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the EVIL one."

I bring this up, not to downplay marriage, but to expose the contradictive nature of MAN's beliefs. When, in the Bible, did it state that swearing an oath IS ok? Is the marriage vows exempt? Are they even recorded in the Bible?


Thinking requires the use of the mind; not the ears.
 
Astravalon

Astravalon

☯
#H.E.B.Knowledge said:
Matthew 5:34-37
New International Version (NIV)
34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

This is one of many scriptures that are disregarded by many Christians. I say this because as you can see in scripture 34, it tells people NOT to swear an oath AT ALL. But as a "Christian" nation, all our offices of power are SWORN into it. Now, there are many oaths taken everyday but the one that MOST if not ALL Christians cherish the most is the marriage vow. Let's take a look a good look at this.
Vow is: (according to Merriam-Webster)
1: to promise solemnly : swear
2: to bind or consecrate by a vow

Now the scripture continues to say that regardless of it's intent (good or bad), you shouldn't do it. But can you still get married without the vow? Many people will say no. They have been TAUGHT to believe that the ceremony is Holy, however, the scriptures above CLEARLY state that taken a vow is not of God and even scripture 37 it states, "All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the EVIL one."

I bring this up, not to downplay marriage, but to expose the contradictive nature of MAN's beliefs. When, in the Bible, did it state that swearing an oath IS ok? Is the marriage vows exempt? Are they even recorded in the Bible?


Thinking requires the use of the mind; not the ears.
Click to expand...
Great topic; we were touching on this in another thread today.

About a year before my former husband asked to split (we're still friends, though), I had begun to ponder this very thing too. In fact, I wrote a piece on it here, in light of all the fretting over gay marriage. :)

I don't think the vows are 'evil' per se, just poor judgment, based on common sense (which is reflected in the passages that advise against it).

-
 
#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
Iridescence said:
Great topic; we were touching on this in another thread today.

About a year before my former husband asked to split (we're still friends, though), I had begun to ponder this very thing too. In fact, I wrote a piece on it here, in light of all the fretting over gay marriage. :)

I don't think the vows are 'evil' per se, just poor judgment, based on common sense (which is reflected in the passages that advise against it).

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Click to expand...

I agree. I think that vows provide both parties with expectations in which one or both parties may not agree with or are willing to fulfill. And with those conditions, we, as humans, have tried to DEFINE love. But that's the mistake in itself since now people have become programmed with those vows and once broken, they believe that their partner no longer LOVE them. Families have been shattered because of this. But I think that you would know a lot more on the subject than me.
 
Me Myself

Me Myself

Back to my username
It remembers me when I said that swearing on the bible in trial was extremely ironic as the bible talks against such things.
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Swearing oaths was a common feature of Jewish religious culture. It is spoken about in the Torah. Jesus (and the Qumran community) disagreed with this practice.
 
#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
nazz said:
Swearing oaths was a common feature of Jewish religious culture. It is spoken about in the Torah. Jesus (and the Qumran community) disagreed with this practice.
Click to expand...

So I guess that's how our government got its idea about "swearing in" for offices. And yet this is a "Christian" nation?!
 
Astravalon

Astravalon

☯
Me Myself said:
It remembers me when I said that swearing on the bible in trial was extremely ironic as the bible talks against such things.
Click to expand...
#H.E.B.Knowledge said:
So I guess that's how our government got its idea about "swearing in" for offices. And yet this is a "Christian" nation?!
Click to expand...
I recall back when I was still an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, the discussion coming up about this very thing; if I'm not mistaken, Christians have the option to "affirm" rather than "swear" in such instances (at least, when it comes to the bible in courtrooms). It's ironic, though, how marriage-vows got through the radar somewhow.

Same could go for a 'Christian nation' "pledging allegiance" -- and to an inanimate object, no less. Right there ya got making vows and idolatry in one swell foop! :)

-
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Some may look back at their marriage vows and very much feel that they were "evil". :(
 
#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
metis said:
Some may look back at their marriage vows and very much feel that they were "evil". :(
Click to expand...

LOL I'm sure they are.

metis said:
I recall back when I was still an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, the discussion coming up about this very thing; if I'm not mistaken, Christians have the option to "affirm" rather than "swear" in such instances (at least, when it comes to the bible in courtrooms). It's ironic, though, how marriage-vows got through the radar somewhow.

Same could go for a 'Christian nation' "pledging allegiance" -- and to an inanimate object, no less. Right there ya got making vows and idolatry in one swell foop! :)
Click to expand...

Where is the option presented in the Bible? Sounds like an apologetic answer without foundation to me. I guess with the option to freely interpret the Bible makes it easier to create answers that are not within the book itself.

Lol i agree, we have found a connection between the two extremely quick.
 
P

Pink Top Hat

Active Member
I read the first few posts and wondered if you knew anything at all about the people of the bible and the culture.

Weddings were not like you all have in the West :D

Middle eastern weddings often dont even include a bride and the only contract and even still today is between the families and fathers and the dowry. That was the contract. The bible is talking I believe of that contract. the dowry, the Quran came later and laid out the rights of the woman in marriage. Inheritance and divorce and custody of children and orphans. Christian women had no rights. Even till very recently they had no rights in Christianity long after women in Islam had them.
 
Boyd

Boyd

Member
Do marriage vows count as oaths though? When dealing with what Matthew is saying, we must look at what it meant to take an oath during that time period, and in specific, in regards to Judaism.

If we do, what can be seen is that an oath and vow are not the same. An oath was to invoke a curse upon oneself. It worked not only by calling on G-d (and seeking to control G-d), but also taking upon oneself a curse that would entail G-d exucting you if the oath would be violated. A vow instead was more of a definite promise to God.

At the same time, Jesus having been a Jew, also is seen to uphold marriage. This can be seen with the view Jesus puts forth in regards to divorce.
 
Astravalon

Astravalon

☯
Boyd said:
Do marriage vows count as oaths though? When dealing with what Matthew is saying, we must look at what it meant to take an oath during that time period, and in specific, in regards to Judaism.

If we do, what can be seen is that an oath and vow are not the same. An oath was to invoke a curse upon oneself. It worked not only by calling on G-d (and seeking to control G-d), but also taking upon oneself a curse that would entail G-d exucting you if the oath would be violated. A vow instead was more of a definite promise to God.

At the same time, Jesus having been a Jew, also is seen to uphold marriage. This can be seen with the view Jesus puts forth in regards to divorce.
Click to expand...
I've seen hair-splitting over the oath/swearing/vowing thing before, but it never really convinced me, especially in the context of making wedding vows.

Since humans can't see the end from the beginning the way God can, they really can't accurately predict how the next 50+ years together is going to go down, as is essentially attempted with wedding vows.

So, whether that particular act is referred to as "vowing", "swearing", or "oath-making", if it involves making bold declarations about one's future, both the bible (Proverbs 27:1; James 4:13-16) as well as just basic common-sense indicate that this isn't a very wise move. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say such a practice could also be referred to as "fortune-telling", "divination", or "false prophecy" (things which I believe the bible also discourages). :)

Interestingly enough, the original Hebrew term for "boast" in Proverbs 27:1 is "halal", one of the meanings of which is "give in marriage".

-
 
#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
Iridescence said:
I've seen hair-splitting over the oath/swearing/vowing thing before, but it never really convinced me, especially in the context of making wedding vows.

Since humans can't see the end from the beginning the way God can, they really can't accurately predict how the next 50+ years together is going to go down, as is essentially attempted with wedding vows.

So, whether that particular act is referred to as "vowing", "swearing", or "oath-making", if it involves making bold declarations about one's future, both the bible (Proverbs 27:1; James 4:13-16) as well as just basic common-sense indicate that this isn't a very wise move. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say such a practice could also be referred to as "fortune-telling", "divination", or "false prophecy" (things which I believe the bible also discourages). :)

Interestingly enough, the original Hebrew term for "boast" in Proverbs 27:1 is "halal", one of the meanings of which is "give in marriage".

-
Click to expand...

I totally agree. We have become accustomed to "promises" like it's a guarantee of some sort. However, we measure our morals on these promises. Someone who makes a promise to be on time for an important event can become a villain if he/she doesn't keep that promise. Maybe at the time, they believe that the task could be accomplished but then sometime may have happen to change it. Traffic, family emergency, etc. are unexpected but can ultimately determine the fate of that promise. With marriage, it could be different circumstances that could eventually ruin that union. With the expectations of a perfect life, we have place this type of relationship on a pedestal. We never want to consider the unexpected. And with making a "vow" and not considering the unexpected, is like making a bet on a team just because you like their mascot. You didn't clearly think it through. And your chances of actually winning are slim.
 
Boyd

Boyd

Member
Iridescence said:
I've seen hair-splitting over the oath/swearing/vowing thing before, but it never really convinced me, especially in the context of making wedding vows.

Since humans can't see the end from the beginning the way God can, they really can't accurately predict how the next 50+ years together is going to go down, as is essentially attempted with wedding vows.

So, whether that particular act is referred to as "vowing", "swearing", or "oath-making", if it involves making bold declarations about one's future, both the bible (Proverbs 27:1; James 4:13-16) as well as just basic common-sense indicate that this isn't a very wise move. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say such a practice could also be referred to as "fortune-telling", "divination", or "false prophecy" (things which I believe the bible also discourages). :)

Interestingly enough, the original Hebrew term for "boast" in Proverbs 27:1 is "halal", one of the meanings of which is "give in marriage".

-
Click to expand...
While there may be hair-splitting about the terms today, there was more of a distinction during the time of Jesus, as pointed out above.

And while it is true that one can not know for sure what the future will bring, marriage has been allowed to end in divorce in Judaism. Jesus also accepts such a view, yet makes it much more difficult to achieve divorce, as he seemingly saw the value in the institution of marriage.

So this would suggest that while Jesus did forbid oaths, he still accepted marriage. It would then reason that Jesus did not see marriage as an act of taking an oath.

Using a modern definition of vow or oath does not work when discussing ancient texts.
 
#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
Boyd said:
While there may be hair-splitting about the terms today, there was more of a distinction during the time of Jesus, as pointed out above.

And while it is true that one can not know for sure what the future will bring, marriage has been allowed to end in divorce in Judaism. Jesus also accepts such a view, yet makes it much more difficult to achieve divorce, as he seemingly saw the value in the institution of marriage.

So this would suggest that while Jesus did forbid oaths, he still accepted marriage. It would then reason that Jesus did not see marriage as an act of taking an oath.

Using a modern definition of vow or oath does not work when discussing ancient texts.
Click to expand...

I would have to disagree. You are pretty much saying that without the "vow" or "oath" then there wouldn't be a marriage. How can you promise God that you will spend the rest of your life with someone and don't consider the unexpected? Then once that time come to where you have broken the vow then you pretty much have lied to God. With the divorce rate so high these days, I'm pretty sure God didn't want us to make any promises that He know we can't keep. Remember, He's all knowing so He already knew that we couldn't keep the promise. It's just something society made up as a security feature. That way people can FEEL like it will last forever and that this is REAL LOVE. Which it isn't. Just a desired illusion.
 
Boyd

Boyd

Member
#H.E.B.Knowledge said:
I would have to disagree. You are pretty much saying that without the "vow" or "oath" then there wouldn't be a marriage. How can you promise God that you will spend the rest of your life with someone and don't consider the unexpected? Then once that time come to where you have broken the vow then you pretty much have lied to God. With the divorce rate so high these days, I'm pretty sure God didn't want us to make any promises that He know we can't keep. Remember, He's all knowing so He already knew that we couldn't keep the promise. It's just something society made up as a security feature. That way people can FEEL like it will last forever and that this is REAL LOVE. Which it isn't. Just a desired illusion.
Click to expand...

Do marriage vows promise anything to God though? Having presided over many marriages, I can say that the vows are between to individuals. Which is why atheists also can take the vows of marriage.

Sure, some may make a promise to God, but that still is not an oath. Vows can be broken just as promises can be broken. Which is why they are allowed for.
 
#H.E.B.Knowledge

#H.E.B.Knowledge

Member
Boyd said:
Do marriage vows promise anything to God though? Having presided over many marriages, I can say that the vows are between to individuals. Which is why atheists also can take the vows of marriage.

Sure, some may make a promise to God, but that still is not an oath. Vows can be broken just as promises can be broken. Which is why they are allowed for.
Click to expand...

Ok well if that's the case, why have a preacher or someone who is ORDAINED to preside over the union? Why can't I just promise the love of my life that we will be together forever and that consider us to be married? And the scripture was referring to making oaths/vows PERIOD. Why make a vow when God said not to?

And if vows can be broken, then what's the point in making them?
 
Boyd

Boyd

Member
#H.E.B.Knowledge said:
Ok well if that's the case, why have a preacher or someone who is ORDAINED to preside over the union? Why can't I just promise the love of my life that we will be together forever and that consider us to be married? And the scripture was referring to making oaths/vows PERIOD. Why make a vow when God said not to?

And if vows can be broken, then what's the point in making them?
Click to expand...
One does not need someone who is ordained to preside over the union. The reason for such though is that marriage is an important aspect of many religions. It also goes back to a time in which religion and politics went hand in hand.

As for promising the love of your life that you will be together forever, that should also be fine. It may not be recognized as a "legal" marriage, in that it won't be viewed as such by the government, but if that isn't a problem for you, then it's fine. I have presided over a number of marriages that were not recognized as "legal" marriages as the couples were of the same-sex.

Also, the verse in question was referring to just oaths. As I explained in my first post, there is a distinction between the two that was understood in that time period.

As for why make a vow if they can be broken? Because, ideally, it should be kept. When it is broken, there should be a credible reason, such as abuse or the like.
 
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