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Bishadi said:

Mark.... I see the people of Islam are working on you and your doing a fine job.

I have a simple thought that immediately came to mind; what is more important the message, "follow the rules" or "go ahead, I'm dying for your sins, anyway"....?

My point is as a "prophet" would it not be possible that he was issuing a message versus suggesting he was "dying for our sins?"

The reason I suggest this is because in other works he clearly eludes accepting the claim of being "a" or 'the' messiah. Try the gospel according to thomas ... http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

I point this direction because you clearly enjoy Jesus and these are supposed to be quotes from a 400AD papyrus eliminating the 1600 years of biblical, let's say, "adjustments"

Nothing is negative, you are holding your own and although a little overboard, on a very similar path as I was 20+ years back, and the more you read the better you will fare.

Just keep in mind as they added to the Bible to account for new understanding, be prepared for additional reading as required.

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I dont think Mark sees any validity from books that arent in the original canon. *shrugs*

Its frightening to examine ones own beliefs from an outside perspective... you begin to question and examine yourself, and finding any truth about yourself is frightening. Why do we believe what we believe? Its all so personal. Most of us seek the same goal. Some of us don't realize that we want the same thing... but only time will tell.

I dont think Mark will find truth in Toma's gospel. When one reads gnostic texts... they cant think of it literaly, its the feeling behind the words, its the power and force that they are trying to get you to see. Not just parables. Yehsua was trying to wake them from the dead, bring them to the One. When we are out of touch with our inner, we are truly dead, only a shell.

...sorry, i'm sleepy, i'll edit this and make it more on topic when i sleep some

Mark1615 said:

There are many. So, I will just give one of the "major" ones. Ask if you want to read more.

John 14:6-13 "Jesus said to them, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from henceforth you know him, and have seen him.
Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father; and how do you say then, Show us the Father?
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works that these shall he do; because I go to my Father.
And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

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yet, with a quick twist of perspective, or interpretation, these mean something entirley different. To me, they dont mean that you have to believe in Yeshua himself, to me, it means that Yeshua found truth, and tried to share it in the best way he knew how. If taken literally, these passages are helpful to your case. Unfortunatley, i dont see them the same way you do.... but i'll take that answer, and ask no more questions on it. Thanks for your patience.

Mark1615 said:

First off, there are three views (that I'm aware of anyway) as to the origin of these giants.

The first view: Men from the line of Seth - these giant men were marrying ungodly women from the line of Cain in Gen. 4 and the line of Seth in Gen. 5. Many people hold this view partly because of Matthew 22:30, which says that angels do not marry.

The second view: Dynastic Kings - these kings were creating polygamous harems. These rulers are called "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82:6. However, polygamy is a sin contrary to God's stated intended design (Gen. 2:22-24).

The third view: Fallen Angels or Nephilim - these fallen angels procreated with human women. The Hebrew term "bene elohim" which means "sons of God" is only used of angels in Scriptures (Job 1:6; 38:7; Ps. 89:6). The sons of God are contrasted with the daughters of men (Gen. 6:4). This view could explain 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6.

There is much more to each of these views, so if you are truly interested do some research. It's really interesting.

Anyway, I don't know where these giants went, or if they even are truly gone. Some say that they died off with Noah's flood, but there is mention of them in various books after the flood. Others say that the evil spirits that indwelt in them live on in other forms. But I really don't know what happened to these particular giants.:sarcastic

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sounds an aweful lot like mythology to me.

Mark1615 said:

Jesus told His disciples to preach to the Jews FIRST. These people were His first priority, because they are God's chosen people. But either way, all people can come to know Christ regardless of their background.

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Why would Yeshua hold anyone over anyone else? I dont really want to follow a god that has a chosen people... if he's choosey, how can he love everyone?

....something just occured to me.... why didnt Yeshua write anything down?

Ibrahim Al-Amin said:

I looked but I couldn't find it. To which verse are you refering? The one that clearly states who the Word is?

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Verse 14 " and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten son of the Father, full of grace and truth." 15 " John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, this is he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." Okay, who was he talking about? verse 29 "The next day John sees JESUS coming unto him, and saith, behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." 30 "This is he of whom I said, after me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

I believe it says that Jesus was the man in verse 29 that John said was preffered before him because he was before him in verse 30. And in verse 14 the word was made flesh, and in verse 15 John says of the WORD he was preffered before him because he was before him. If you read in the book of Luke you'll see that John was at least six months older than Jesus. So how could he be before him unless he was the Word that was God and is God and was made flesh.
If that's not clear enough... I can't help you.

Bishadi said:

Mark.... I see the people of Islam are working on you and your doing a fine job.

I have a simple thought that immediately came to mind; what is more important the message, "follow the rules" or "go ahead, I'm dying for your sins, anyway"....?

My point is as a "prophet" would it not be possible that he was issuing a message versus suggesting he was "dying for our sins?"

The reason I suggest this is because in other works he clearly eludes accepting the claim of being "a" or 'the' messiah. Try the gospel according to thomas ... http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

I point this direction because you clearly enjoy Jesus and these are supposed to be quotes from a 400AD papyrus eliminating the 1600 years of biblical, let's say, "adjustments"

Nothing is negative, you are holding your own and although a little overboard, on a very similar path as I was 20+ years back, and the more you read the better you will fare.

Just keep in mind as they added to the Bible to account for new understanding, be prepared for additional reading as required.

Click to expand...

There is a lot of validity in extrabiblical works, though one must be cautious when considering them. They were left out for a reason, though I don't know all those reasons.

Buttons* said:

yet, with a quick twist of perspective, or interpretation, these mean something entirley different. To me, they dont mean that you have to believe in Yeshua himself, to me, it means that Yeshua found truth, and tried to share it in the best way he knew how. If taken literally, these passages are helpful to your case. Unfortunatley, i dont see them the same way you do.... but i'll take that answer, and ask no more questions on it. Thanks for your patience.

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That is why it is important not to put our own interpretations into the text, but to try to understand the writer's.

Buttons* said:

sounds an aweful lot like mythology to me.

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Many Christians would say that this is mythology. God left a lot of information silent, and we should take a cue from that.

Buttons* said:

Why would Yeshua hold anyone over anyone else? I dont really want to follow a god that has a chosen people... if he's choosey, how can he love everyone?

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Taking a look at the Israelites, one will soon see that they were not "good" people. They were disobeying God and worshipping idols and doing everything that God told them not to. God uses the least deserving people sometimes. So, why did God still love them and choose them? For the same reason that He loves us. God created us for a purpose, which is for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11). This is the reason for our existence on earth. The entire creation was made for the pleasure of God.

That doesn't mean that we are "God's toys" as some would suggest. Just as a father is pleased when he sees that his children have pleasure, so our pleasure is God's pleasure. Those who love God will have "pleasures for evermore" (Psalm 16:11).

Buttons* said:

....something just occured to me.... why didnt Yeshua write anything down?

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Good question. My guess would be that that wasn't Jesus' mission. He came to tell and show who He is. He left the writing for others.

Mark1615 said:

That is why it is important not to put our own interpretations into the text, but to try to understand the writer's.

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exactly.

Did Yehsua have free will?

People at my school say that God made each and every soul individually. Gave us special talents, and when we die we'll go to heaven with those individual talents and gifts. If we are given a body in heaven, what do we look like? Most people die when they're old, so does it look like one big retirement home in heaven?

Buttons* said:

People at my school say that God made each and every soul individually. Gave us special talents, and when we die we'll go to heaven with those individual talents and gifts. If we are given a body in heaven, what do we look like? Most people die when they're old, so does it look like one big retirement home in heaven?

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My feelings are that we will have essentially the same body in Heaven that we have here on earth. I read a book once (by a fellow-Christian, but someone of a different denomination than I). He tried to explain that each of us has a physical identity, but that this identity isn't necessarily representitive of what we looked like at any given age. Each of us, in the author's opinion (and in mine, as well, I guess) will have the appearance that best identifies us at our best. Obesity isn't part of who a person is. Neither are pimples or a big nose or a receding chin. Neither are physical disabilities such as blindness or deafness.

Have you ever had a dream where you were the age you are right now, and were with one of your parents (or if you were a parent yourself -- which I realize you're not -- you were with one of your own children) and you're all the same age? You're relating to one another as you do in real life, but the relationship between your ages is all mixed up. I had a dream just the other night that my two teenagers were still little kids. I was the same age I am right now (35) but they weren't 13 and 16; they were more like 3 and 6. Nothing about that dream seemed weird. My mother says that almost always, when she dreams about me, she and I are the same age. She's actually 30 years older than I am.

I think that each of us will have the epitome of what, to us, would be our own physically perfect body.

Why do you call it the "second coming" of Yeshua?
Wouldnt it be his third?
1) birth
2) ressurection
3) 2nd (3rd) coming

Ushta mark

But the Dead Sea scrolls, also provide evidence for a Zoroastrian belief system at Qumram . That is the Two spirits in man, the Sons of light and the sing of darkness etc. Here in lies the rub . Even taking the totally unacceptable (on linguistic and histotical grounds) date of 700 BC for Zarathushtra, there is tantalizing evidence in the Avesta for pious borrowing by at least by sectarian if not mainstream Jews.

Item resurrection was present in the Avesta 100s of years before the NT
Item a clearly definable Satan was present in the Avesta 100s of years before, and I meanSatan as the adversary of God, not the Satan of the OT
Item a Heaven and a Hell are in the Avesta 100s of years before they appear in the NT , the OT only had the Sheol
Item a final jdgment appaers in the Avesta 100s of years before it appears in the Bible
Item a World messiah/savior (In fact 3 of them) appear in the Avesta 100s of years prior to appearing in Isaiah
Item the doctrine of the Kingdom of God/Heaven appears in the Avesta 100s of years before Jesus

Indeed there are many more coincidinks like these .

In fact I would say that while the DSS do provide evidence that Isaiah and others are very closely preserved in the Masoretic, text , what is truly outstanding and what they prove is Zoroastrian influence at the very least on sectarian Judaism. indeed I have more evidence that applies to Christianity besides the one above.

What say you?

Ushta Te
Ashai

Buttons* said:

Did Yehsua have free will?

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He did. But He chose to do the will of the Father.

Buttons* said:

People at my school say that God made each and every soul individually. Gave us special talents, and when we die we'll go to heaven with those individual talents and gifts. If we are given a body in heaven, what do we look like? Most people die when they're old, so does it look like one big retirement home in heaven?

Click to expand...

Every Christian who I've talked to has wondered about the same thing. I have no idea what people in heaven will look like, but the Bible does say that those people will have a "new" body. The rest is up to speculation.

Buttons* said:

Why do you call it the "second coming" of Yeshua?
Wouldnt it be his third?
1) birth
2) ressurection
3) 2nd (3rd) coming

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From what I understand, the first "coming" was his resurrection, because He said that He will return again in the same manner that He left.