• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Cholesterol and Fat Scam

apophenia

Well-Known Member
The most influential and respected investigation of the causes of heart disease is the Framingham Heart Study. This study was set up in the town of Framingham, Massachusetts, by Harvard University Medical School in 1948 and is still going on today. It was this study that gave rise to the dietary 'risk factors' with which we all are so familiar today. The Framingham researchers thought that they knew exactly why some people had more cholesterol than others - they ate more in their diet. To prove the link, they measured cholesterol intake and compared it with blood cholesterol. As Table I shows, although subjects consumed cholesterol over a wide range, there was little or no difference in the levels of cholesterol in their blood and, thus, no relationship between the amount of cholesterol eaten and levels of blood cholesterol was found. (Although it is interesting that women who had the highest levels of cholesterol in their blood were ones who had eaten the least cholesterol.)

[SIZE=-1]Table I:[/SIZE][see article, the RF editor screws this table]




Next, the scientists studied intakes of saturated fats but again they could find no relation. There was still no relation when they studied total calorie intake. They then considered the possibility that something was masking the effects of diet, but no other factor made the slightest difference.
After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:
"There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group."
On Christmas Eve, 1997, after a further twenty-seven years, the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) carried a follow-up report that showed that dietary saturated fat reduced strokes. As these tend to affect older men than CHD, they wondered if a fatty diet was causing those in the trial to die of CHD before they had a stroke. But the researchers discount this, saying:
"This hypothesis, however, depends on the presence of a strong direct association of fat intake with coronary heart disease. Since we found no such association, competing mortality from coronary heart disease is very unlikely to explain our results."
In other words, after forty-nine years of research, they are still saying that they can find no relation between a fatty diet and heart disease.

from - The Cholesterol Myth: Part 2: Dietary Fats and Heart Disease

The Framingham study, which is the most comprehensive study ever undertaken into this subject, demonstrates that the people with the highest levels of cholesterol lived longest.

People who ate the most cholesterol and fat weighed less and were the most active.

According to Dr J Bowden - "The study did show a positive correlation of serum cholesterol and heart disease in younger people, but this disappears as we age. By about 47, cholesterol appears to be highly protective."

Please note folks - this information is coming from Harvard University Medical School, and the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
A 21-year follow-up of 8586 men from the Israeli Ischemic Heart Disease study

  1. david tanne, md;
  2. shlomit yaari, bsc;
  3. uri goldbourt, phd
+ author affiliations
  1. the department of epidemiology and preventive medicine, sackler school of medicine, tel-aviv university (u.g.); the department of neurology (d.t.) and neufeld cardiac research institute (u.g.), sheba medical center, tel-hashomer; and the computing center, bar-ilan university, ramat gan (s.y.), israel.
  1. correspondence to u. Goldbourt, phd, neufeld cardiac research institute, sheba medical center, tel-hashomer 52621, israel. E-mail [email protected].
abstract

background and purpose while there is overwhelming evidence relating low levels of hdl cholesterol (hdl-c) with coronary heart disease, the association with cerebrovascular disease is not clear. The aim of the present report was to assess the association between hdl-c levels and ischemic stroke mortality obtained from a long-term follow-up in the israeli ischemic heart disease study.
methods the subjects of this report are 8586 men, tenured civil servants and municipal employees, aged 42 years or older at the time of hdl-c measurements in 1965. They were followed up for mortality for 21 years. Death due to cerebrovascular disease included the international classification of disease, 9th revision, codes 430 to 438, of which presumed ischemic stroke included codes 433 to 438.
results during the 21-year follow-up, 295 men died from cerebrovascular events, of which 241 deaths were due to presumed ischemic stroke. Individuals subsequently experiencing a fatal ischemic stroke had a marginally lower age-adjusted mean hdl-c (1.05 mmol/l) and a significantly lower (p<.001) age-adjusted mean percentage of serum cholesterol contained in the hdl fraction (%hdl) (19.3%) than counterparts surviving the follow-up period (1.06 mmol/l and 20.6%, respectively). Decreasing age-adjusted rates of ischemic stroke mortality were observed with increasing %hdl: 14.6, 14.0, and 11.8 per 10&#8201;000 person-years in the low, middle, and upper tertiles of %hdl, respectively. In multivariate analysis, a low concentration of hdl-c appeared to be significantly predictive of ischemic stroke mortality. The relative risk associated with a 5% decrease of %hdl was 1.18 (95% confidence interval, 1.03 to 1.34). Men at the lower tertile of hdl-c levels experienced a 1.32-fold increase of covariate-adjusted ischemic stroke mortality risk compared with counterparts at the upper tertile.

conclusions in this prospective study of middle-aged and elderly men from a healthy, working population, we have demonstrated an independent negative association between hdl-c and ischemic stroke mortality during a long-term (21-year) follow-up.

High-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol and Risk of Ischemic Stroke Mortality

Yeah, I know, this is about HDL-C. I'm just posting various reports of interest.
 
Last edited:

apophenia

Well-Known Member
EPIDEMIOLOGIC STUDIES OF CORONARY HEART DISEASE AND STROKE IN JAPANESE MEN LIVING IN JAPAN, HAWAII AND CALIFORNIA

SERUM LIPIDS AND DIET
hiroo kato1,
  1. jeanne tillotson2,
  2. milton z. Nichaman3,
  3. george g. Rhoads4 and
  4. howard b. Hamilton5
+ author affiliations
  1. 1department of statistics, atomic bomb casualty commission, hiroshima, and hiroshima branch, japanese national institute of health hiroshima, japan
  2. 2national heart and lung institute, clinical applications program bethesda, maryland
  3. 3nutrition program, center for disease control atlanta, georgia
  4. 4honolulu heart study, honolulu, hawaii
  5. 5department of clinical laboratories, atomic bomb casualty commission hiroshima, japan
  1. address reprint requests to dr. Kato, dept. Of statistics, atomic bomb casualty commission, 5-2 hijiyama park, hiroshima, japan 730
  • received january 15, 1973
abstract

kato, h. (dept. Of statistics, atomic bomb casualty commission, 5–2 hijiyama park, hiroshima, japan 730), j. Tilotson, m. Z. Nichaman, g. G. Rhoads and h. B. Hamilton. Epidemiologic studies of coronary heart disease and stroke in japanese men living in japan, hawaii and california: Serum lipids and diet. am j epidemiol 97: 372–385, 1973.—the relationship between serum lipids, i.e., serum cholesterol and casual serum triglycerides, and dietary intake was investigated in men of japanese ancestry resident in japan, hawaii and california as part of a large scale comparative study of cardiovascular diseases. The study provided a good opportunity for such an effort because dietary intake patterns varied remarkably among the three cohorts although their genetic background is essentially the same. Serum cholesterol showed a positive regression with dietary intake of saturated fat, animal protein, and dietary cholesterol. The regression with saturated fat was more strongly observed in japan where average body weight and serum cholesterol levels are considerably lower than in the more americanized cohorts, and where average dietary fat intakes are roughly 40% of those recorded in hawaii and california. Interestingly, the relationship between saturated fat intake and serum cholesterol was stronger in the groups with lower relative body weight in both japan and hawaii. Serum cholesterol was negatively associated with complex carbohydrate intake, but no association was observed with simple carbohydrate. Regression of nutrient variables with casual triglyceride measurements was weak, although consistently negative with the calorie/weight index.

EPIDEMIOLOGIC STUDIES OF CORONARY HEART DISEASE AND STROKE IN JAPANESE MEN LIVING IN JAPAN, HAWAII AND CALIFORNIA
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to make it clear:
I'm calling conspiracy theory on your claim that cholesterol does not cause atherosclerosis.

I have not opined regarding the diet claims, as I suspect it's likely that people get caught up in fad diets, and that doctors over-prescribe pills for everything.

I can not find any evidence that cholesterol causes artherosclerosis.

Based on my reading, LDL particles are able to enter the artery wall as a result of damage to that wall.

LDL particles do not cause the damage.

The information which I am finding says that the actual cause of that damage is not understood.

So LDL-C is present at the site of arterial damage, but has not been shown to cause the damage.

This is why I mentioned the finding that veins are not subject to this damage - unless they are used surgically to replace arteries. So that is a good indicator that the cause of the inflammation and arterial wall damage is more likely hydrodynamics.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Great stuff your sharing apophenia.:)

You're welcome :)

Now you can enjoy cream and butter all you like. And beef-and-fat pho. That is one of my favourites from the Vietnamese restaurants in Footscray. Although lately I have been having very little meat, I mostly live on eggs, milk and minestrone now. With lots of sour cream :D
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
You're welcome :)

Now you can enjoy cream and butter all you like. And beef-and-fat pho. That is one of my favourites from the Vietnamese restaurants in Footscray. Although lately I have been having very little meat, I mostly live on eggs, milk and minestrone now. With lots of sour cream :D

I have mainly been a vegetarian for most of my life, but I do like to have a nice meat dish every now and then. I think if we eat meat and other fatty foods, if we have an over all healthy diet, such as veggie's and fruit, this will help to anti-oxidize the body, then there's no problem.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
While not trying to pull a "no true scotsman", most scientists who actually care about science can't be bought.
Yes but they can be ignored, their findings discredited or they are ridiculed into silence by their peers.

Look how long it took one man to get his findings heard on helicobacter pylori? He was ridiculed for a long time until his findings were backed up by other scientists.

So most people who are actually experts are saying what is correct according to current knowledge.
"Current knowledge" comes from what sources?

Many nutritional substances are stable and thus survive for a long time.
Do we want them to merely "survive" and be barely alive when we consume them? :facepalm:

Artificially ripening fruit will change the sugar-starch ratio just like actual ripening, but I don't think it changes much of the nutritional value outside of that.
Do you honestly believe that a money hungry system is worried about nutrition? All they care about is shelf life and the fact that what they sell you won't kill you immediately. They can't be sued that way.

Which minerals are in the fruit depends both on the soil and the plant itself and doesn't change a lot between organic and conventional agriculture if you take those thing into consideration.
If you grow crops in dead soil, you have dead produce. If you use artificial fertilizers and herbicides and pesticides on everything...how do you suppose that the population is not going to suffer from ingesting these chemicals? Polluted water and air also contribute to the end product being barely fit for human consumption. Everything that sustains life on this planet has been interfered with...polluted by greedy men.

Dairy allergy is common in nearly all people on Earth, and that's partly due to our interference of keeping milk producing cattle :D. Depending om milk for nutrition has made the milk-drinking people develop the necessary process for processing lactose. In countries with low milk consumption you also see a high lactose intolerance. It's not due to unnatural chemicals or anything, just due to small scale evolution.
Do you remember a time when milk had cream on top? My Dad used to steal the cream for his coffee. If he were alive today, there is no cream to steal.
Everything is so de-natured by having the living organisms burned to death that nothing retains its health giving properties any more. Even honey....the only product on the planet that never spoils is heat treated so that it won't 'candy'. All you need to do is stand it in hot water for a few minutes and it will become liquid again.
I try to buy raw honey but it is hard to get if you don't know an apiarist. :rolleyes:

I would like to buy raw milk too but we are not allowed. Surely it should be up to consumers to decide if they want to take the risk for the health benefits. How hard is it to test for bad bacteria?

I eat a mix of organic and conventional food since that's what I can afford. The nutritional value doesn't vary, just the environmental impact. If the plant requires a lot of pestices (like grapes, bellpeppers and potatoes) then I will buy it organic. If I could, I would buy GMO instead of conventional, but the EU has basically banned GMOs.
How do you rid the world of what is already out there? The genie is out of the bottle.
Certified organic produce is beyond the budget of most low income people. That is a travesty when junk food is all they can afford.

For the "western" world fast food is to blame, really. You can eat healthy and still eat conventional or GMO.
Fast food does not have to be unhealthy. No food does, that is the point.
They could sell healthy fast food but most people today are hooked on the junk and wonder why they are obese and feel awful every day. Soda drinks are laced with abundant amounts of sugar. If a can of Coke contains 16 teaspoons of sugar, don't you have to ask why? Who would put 16 teaspoons of sugar in a cup of coffee? Sugar is addictive...so is caffeine....regular customers guaranteed...like junkies turning up to their 'pusher' for their next hit.

Covering up is good during the worst hours, but a low sun factor is enough during the regular hours. I had a vitamin D deficiency due to mostly staying inside and being a vegan, which gives you little vitamin D from the food (now I'm a vegetarian who goes outside more!).
Good for you. :) If more people knew about Vit D and how it protects from cancer, they would all be out in the sun, unshowered (natural oils in tact on their skin) and expose their bodies to early or late sunshine. (Never of course in the middle of the day. Short rays burn)

Soap is good since it kills bacteria and washes away dirt.
We have good bacteria on our skin too. This obsession we have with "germs" today is responsible for immune systems never building up natural immunity. Hand sanitizers, disinfectant sprays etc, over-prescription of anti-biotics etc, kill the good guys along with the bad. In many instances the good bacteria keep the bad in check.

The rise is cases of asthma, especially among children, is thought to be related to the over use of germ killers in the home. Poor imune response results in many allergens triggering the problem.

Sadly, most products used to clean the skin tend to make you dry. I do use moisturising cream, but I get dried out quite easily, even without soap. My shampoo is 100% organic and natural, though, so I don't need to use conditioner, despite having long hair. At least here it's many small businesses that make hygiene products.
It isn't the small businesses that you have to worry about...it's the big fellas.

What did people do for the thousands of years before soap became popular? They just used water.

Too conspiracy-ish for me.
LOL. You know that conspiracy theories are roundly discredited by most people. But didn't you ever wonder if any of them...or even some of them might be true? No one wants to believe they are.....but you have to wonder if, in amongst the obvious fake ones, that there are some true ones as well, carefully concealed to make them appear like the rest?

It's a bit like "rent a crowd" when peaceful public demonstrations turn violent. Have you ever wondered where these trouble makers come from? It turns the protest into a 'shamozzle' and the cause of the protest and the protesters lose credibility. Its an old trick....like doing an act of violence on one's own people and blaming the enemy. It's sure to cause public outrage and gain lots of support for the "retaliation" that must follow.

We're making a choice in a market that provides us with many options. If you skip meat you can afford to buy more organic products even on a low budget! (Not that I'm pro-capitalism, because capitalism is the #1 enemy of our environment)
Some people don't get the option to skip anything. Financially, they are stuck in the junk food cycle, with nowhere else to go. There is no real excuse for that.

Oh I do believe man can fix it! If man cannot fix it, then man will die out and thus fix the problems by disappearing. So we either fix the problem or the problem will "fix" us.
How true. But has man demonstrated the will to do anything that will cost him something and rob him of his profit?

The earth is drowning in its own waste, yet it appears to be somebody else's job to clean it up. Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of kilometers of ocean are clogged with plastic waste?
"Estimates of size range from 700,000 square kilometres (270,000 sq mi) to more than 15,000,000 square kilometres (5,800,000 sq mi) (0.41% to 8.1% of the size of the Pacific Ocean), or, in some media reports, up to "twice the size of the continental United States"
:eek:
From
Great Pacific garbage patch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It kills marine creatures by the thousands every day, yet no one seems to want to do anything about it. No one is reducing their plastic production or consumption, so it continues to grow. :ignore:

Trust man to fix the problem?...I don't think so.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
So nobody in the US tried to watch the video ?

If you are interested in this subject at all, it's worth a look. It isn't crackpot **** like the stuff you might see on FOX or whatever.

Given what I have found out so far, it is looking to me like this whole cholesterol/fat issue is the biggest medical fraud of all time.

And Harvard and the JAMA (and plenty of others) seem to agree. WTF is going on ?

It really does appear that 'scientific consensus', or at least the appearance of it, can be manufactured if there is enough potential profit. And anti-cholesterol drugs are the biggest selling medical product in history. Despite there being evidence that cholesterol is protective, and saturated fat is good nutrition.

Peer review my ***. This is just Big Business.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Look how people use to think about smoking, they didn't realize that smoking causes so many diseases, even mobile phones with the radiation and all, no one wants to believe it, they just stick their heads in the sand and hope for the best lol.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Here is one of many similar statements about the cause of atherosclerosis -

Arteries contain what is called an endothelium, a thin layer of cells that keeps the artery smooth and allows blood to flow easily. Atherosclerosis starts when the endothelium becomes damaged, allowing LDL cholesterol to accumulate in the artery wall.

What Is Atherosclerosis? What Causes Atherosclerosis?

Note, it does not say that LDL-C causes the damage - it says that the damage (cause unspecified) allows LDL to accumulate.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
Yes but they can be ignored, their findings discredited or they are ridiculed into silence by their peers.

That's not how science works.

Look how long it took one man to get his findings heard on helicobacter pylori? He was ridiculed for a long time until his findings were backed up by other scientists.
It takes time to confirm things and you probably wont have full support in the beginning. If scientists weren't extremely critical, too much false information would get through the system.

"Current knowledge" comes from what sources?
The collected studies in the relevant fields.

Do we want them to merely "survive" and be barely alive when we consume them? :facepalm:

Do you honestly believe that a money hungry system is worried about nutrition? All they care about is shelf life and the fact that what they sell you won't kill you immediately. They can't be sued that way.
I'm not aware of any essential nutritional substances that are alive. Bacteria don't really count as nutrition.

If you grow crops in dead soil, you have dead produce. If you use artificial fertilizers and herbicides and pesticides on everything...how do you suppose that the population is not going to suffer from ingesting these chemicals? Polluted water and air also contribute to the end product being barely fit for human consumption. Everything that sustains life on this planet has been interfered with...polluted by greedy men.
The same goes for organic agriculture. Bad soil is a problem for most large scale agriculture, both conventional and organic. Many GMO plants produce very specific pesticides that are only harmful to certain pests and can thus be used with less pesticides, yet the same people who are against pesticide use are often against GMO. Most vegetables and fruits are fully fit for consumption even if they've been conventionally grown. It's not artificial fertilizers that are the problem, it's overfertilization. The same happens with natural fertilizers. We need to put more care into our agriculture. It might take more effort to grow crops sustainably, but it's worth it!

Do you remember a time when milk had cream on top? My Dad used to steal the cream for his coffee. If he were alive today, there is no cream to steal.
Everything is so de-natured by having the living organisms burned to death that nothing retains its health giving properties any more. Even honey....the only product on the planet that never spoils is heat treated so that it won't 'candy'. All you need to do is stand it in hot water for a few minutes and it will become liquid again.
I try to buy raw honey but it is hard to get if you don't know an apiarist. :rolleyes:
Regular sugar doesn't spoil either. It's quite annoying if the honey becomes candied, so why not treat it? Milk was never a health potion.

I would like to buy raw milk too but we are not allowed. Surely it should be up to consumers to decide if they want to take the risk for the health benefits. How hard is it to test for bad bacteria?
It's an expensive process that has to be done repeatedly.

How do you rid the world of what is already out there? The genie is out of the bottle.
Certified organic produce is beyond the budget of most low income people. That is a travesty when junk food is all they can afford.
If we look at the western world, then people could afford at least a bit more organic if they skipped the meat. Meat is expensive, yet is a staple food for most people.

Fast food does not have to be unhealthy. No food does, that is the point.
They could sell healthy fast food but most people today are hooked on the junk and wonder why they are obese and feel awful every day. Soda drinks are laced with abundant amounts of sugar. If a can of Coke contains 16 teaspoons of sugar, don't you have to ask why? Who would put 16 teaspoons of sugar in a cup of coffee? Sugar is addictive...so is caffeine....regular customers guaranteed...like junkies turning up to their 'pusher' for their next hit.
Products with high amount of sugar have always been appreciated by humans since they have been rare historically. It's no surprise that people buy them. We're not fooled into buying soda, it's just something that tastes good and people appreciate.

We have good bacteria on our skin too. This obsession we have with "germs" today is responsible for immune systems never building up natural immunity. Hand sanitizers, disinfectant sprays etc, over-prescription of anti-biotics etc, kill the good guys along with the bad. In many instances the good bacteria keep the bad in check.

The rise is cases of asthma, especially among children, is thought to be related to the over use of germ killers in the home. Poor imune response results in many allergens triggering the problem.

It isn't the small businesses that you have to worry about...it's the big fellas.

What did people do for the thousands of years before soap became popular? They just used water.
And how did people do before soap? They were often sick since hygiene standards were low. The soaps produced by small businesses make you just as dry as the ones produced by big businesses, so it's really about the product and not who makes it.

LOL. You know that conspiracy theories are roundly discredited by most people. But didn't you ever wonder if any of them...or even some of them might be true? No one wants to believe they are.....but you have to wonder if, in amongst the obvious fake ones, that there are some true ones as well, carefully concealed to make them appear like the rest?
Maybe one in a thousand is true, but most are still nothing but weird ideas dreamt up by people who want the world to be a more exciting place or want someone to blame for their problems.

It's a bit like "rent a crowd" when peaceful public demonstrations turn violent. Have you ever wondered where these trouble makers come from? It turns the protest into a 'shamozzle' and the cause of the protest and the protesters lose credibility. Its an old trick....like doing an act of violence on one's own people and blaming the enemy. It's sure to cause public outrage and gain lots of support for the "retaliation" that must follow.
You underestimate how much some people like to fight. If there's a big protest, then of course the violent people are going to flock there for a chance to fight.

The earth is drowning in its own waste, yet it appears to be somebody else's job to clean it up. Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of kilometers of ocean are clogged with plastic waste?
"Estimates of size range from 700,000 square kilometres (270,000 sq mi) to more than 15,000,000 square kilometres (5,800,000 sq mi) (0.41% to 8.1% of the size of the Pacific Ocean), or, in some media reports, up to "twice the size of the continental United States"
:eek:
From
Great Pacific garbage patch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It kills marine creatures by the thousands every day, yet no one seems to want to do anything about it. No one is reducing their plastic production or consumption, so it continues to grow. :ignore:

Trust man to fix the problem?...I don't think so.
So what do you suggest we do? Do nothing but pray?
The only thing we can do is try to make a difference as prayers haven't worked at all so far. Appealing to a higher power rather than to the people who dedicate their lives to environmental issues pacifies the people. If God is going to fix it, then why bother to do anything?
 
Last edited:

apophenia

Well-Known Member
That's not how science works.

I posted examples of how science has shown that the anti-fat and anti-cholesterol industry is a scam. The science was done by totally legit credible scientists.

That information is now being totally ignored by the scientifically minded here on RF.

Is that how science works ?
 
Here is one of many similar statements about the cause of atherosclerosis -



What Is Atherosclerosis? What Causes Atherosclerosis?

Note, it does not say that LDL-C causes the damage - it says that the damage (cause unspecified) allows LDL to accumulate.

I run a cardiac rehab and cardiovascular disease prevention program and have treated thousands of people with education, counseling, and exercise to help people prevent future cardiovascular events. I have been studying and working in this field for 21 years.

While your above statement is true, LDL chol in your body has a direct and significant impact on your risk for heart disease. Saturated fat intake, not only increases your bodies LDL chol., it has a direct and significant impact on your risk for heart diseas and many types of cancer.
While dietary chol. does not impact your blood LDL as much as sarurated fat (when you eat chol your liver decreases its own production of chol.) it should still be eaten in moderation.
There is a ton of research to support the above statements.
Plant based diets are recommended.
 
I can not find any evidence that cholesterol causes artherosclerosis.

Based on my reading, LDL particles are able to enter the artery wall as a result of damage to that wall.

LDL particles do not cause the damage.

The information which I am finding says that the actual cause of that damage is not understood.

So LDL-C is present at the site of arterial damage, but has not been shown to cause the damage.

This is why I mentioned the finding that veins are not subject to this damage - unless they are used surgically to replace arteries. So that is a good indicator that the cause of the inflammation and arterial wall damage is more likely hydrodynamics.

Yes the damage may be caused by a combination of high BP, stress, genetics, smoking. The chol. is still the bulding material. The more you have, the faster the rate of oxidation and build-up of plaque in the wall of the artery. If you look at the entire body of research, there is really no dispute.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Yes the damage may be caused by a combination of high BP, stress, genetics, smoking. The chol. is still the bulding material. The more you have, the faster the rate of oxidation and build-up of plaque in the wall of the artery. If you look at the entire body of research, there is really no dispute.

You clearly didn't read the studies I posted.

There is no correlation between dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol, according to the studies I have seen.

You are ignoring the biggest single study ever undertaken, the Framingham study, which began in 1948 and continues even now. And many other studies.

Please post some links to the studies which prove a correlation between dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol.

Please post links to studies which show a correlation of dietary cholesterol and heart disease.

I do not claim to be an expert, but I have not seen any credible evidence that such correlations exist. I have no problem with being proved wrong btw. But so far, I have only seen evidence that the claimed correlations are false.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
I posted examples of how science has shown that the anti-fat and anti-cholesterol industry is a scam. The science was done by totally legit credible scientists.

That information is now being totally ignored by the scientifically minded here on RF.

Is that how science works ?

I only found one study that you posted that was both relevant to the subject and published in a serious journal, and that was just as selective as the studies you condemned as it only studied men and only in three countries. I couldn't access it either, and I couldn't find anything in the abstract saying that cholesterol and saturated fats are harmless. If I missed any serious studies, then it would be nice of you to show me them :).

When studies say different things, you can't just pick the one that supports your stance and say that the rest have been debunked. That saturated fat and LDL-cholesterol are good or neutral to you is still a fringe view in the medical circles.

One of the links you provided was to a conspiracy and anti-vegetarianism website. Hardly a trustworthy and unbiased source, so link to the actual study instead of their highly biased presentation of it!
 
Last edited:
Top