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Are Jesus and Michael the same person?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Revelation 112 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[a] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

That's Jesus. Yes, or no?

Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

That is Jesus for sure.

Daniel 10:5 there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult. 7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. 8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength....13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia...16 Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. 11:1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.).

In this vision of Daniel the one speaking to Daniel (the glorified son of man) and the one touching him (the man Jesus?) are the essential characters. Michael is not present but is someone else.
 
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Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
NAY!!!....................................

No other is or will be like Michael....

What is wrong with 'you' people!? jk

HA HA HA.... preposterous...
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
I was considering Jesus the Son and Michael the Arch Angel, Michael the Arch Angel, St.Michael - General of Gods Armies.
They are not the same individual, Jesus the son and Michael the standard of Gods Armies.

I have respect for this Sir.

Quis ut Deus: Who is "like" God?


Even though Jesus is unquestionably excellent in the art of war.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was considering Jesus the Son and Michael the Arch Angel, Michael the Arch Angel, St.Michael - General of Gods Armies.
They are not the same individual, Jesus the son and Michael the standard of Gods Armies.

I have respect for this Sir.

Quis ut Deus: Who is "like" God?


Even though Jesus is unquestionably excellent in the art of war.

I agree. Thanks for the picture. Reminiscent of David, isn't it?
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
All I am certain of King David is that he became a great King in slaying the Goliath. I am not
versed in any teaching, a scholar. From what I understand of King David he was a commoner
that slayed the Nephilim Goliath in Israel and became King.

I had a vision of the St.Michael, I should refine my tongue and charmed/persuaded me into
doing push-ups. Haha, He is real to me and directed me to psalms. Do not refute the knowledge.

My beliefs are remaining pseudo Judaic/ Celtic/ Norse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

From what I understood at a time St.Michael executed her.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From what I understood at a time St.Michael executed her.
Sometimes I wonder if someone might execute me if it was legal and if they could find me. Why? I am contention like a mosquito. I am a mosquito. Doesn't almost everyone slap those?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You'll always have an unanswerable question, if you take Revelation too seriously.
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
That is belittling of you reducing yourself to a mosquito... Absurd even for the most un-decorative
scoundrel.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Revelation 112 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[a] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

That's Jesus. Yes, or no?

Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

That is Jesus for sure.

Daniel 10:5 there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult. 7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. 8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength....13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia...16 Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. 11:1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.).

In this vision of Daniel the one speaking to Daniel (the glorified son of man) and the one touching him (the man Jesus?) are the essential characters. Michael is not present but is someone else.


This is a serious hodge podge of misinformation and guesses soley from imagination.

The NT used the OT authors work to help create their own.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK. Let's pretend the writer of Daniel and the writer of Revelation saw something in symbols. Is it possible to believe what they saw are two different things? There are people who believe the vision in Rev really symbolized Jesus but the one in Daniel symbolizes something or someone else. I do not see how that is possible. I can see how it is possible that they are both hog wash and baloney but I do not see that if one is believed to be true, the other one can be understood as a different vision. OK!

I think John and Daniel saw the same thing. OK, one says brass and the other copper. It's all metal to me.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My point was not proving Michael is anyone. My point was not proving any vision true. My point was suppose to be that Jesus cannot be Michael because Jesus is obviously the one seen by Daniel and that one seen by Daniel referred to Michael. The NWT says "there is no one holding strongly with me in these [ ] but Michael the prince of you people."

The one in the vision is calling Michael his confederate.

















I am having a troll sensation.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Revelation 112 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[a] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

That's Jesus. Yes, or no?

Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

That is Jesus for sure.

Daniel 10:5 there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult. 7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. 8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength....13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia...16 Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. 11:1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.).

In this vision of Daniel the one speaking to Daniel (the glorified son of man) and the one touching him (the man Jesus?) are the essential characters. Michael is not present but is someone else.

I believe the Daniel vision does not identify the person as Jesus. I don't beleive similar attire counts for much. Just ask two women who wear the same dress, lol.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe the Daniel vision does not identify the person as Jesus. I don't beleive similar attire counts for much. Just ask two women who wear the same dress, lol.

That is a bad analogy but a good joke :) Who is the one in Daniel's vision?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Ezekiel's imagery of the Glowing Man may help interpret the other visions of a glowing man.

I think that Ezekiel chapter 1 might help a lot with interpreting that. The same 'Glowing man' appears in Ezekiel chapter 1 that appears in your two other mentions, Daniel and Revelation. Its all guesswork, but I'll put something forward. For this interpretation, which I hope to write intelligibly, everything in the vision at least in chapter 1 but probably throughout Ezekiel should be thought of as parallel to the creation account in Genesis. Think of them both as visions, and I will try to show some connections with the aim of giving an explanation of the 'Glowing man'.

Similarity of elements Ezekiel's vision with other Bible visions:

The vision beginning chapter 1 uses words like 'Wheels' and 'Lightning' which can be confusing, but ignoring that for a moment Ezekiel says that above all of it: "and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him...." (Ezekiel 1:26 & 27) That is our Glowing Man, the most obvious unifying image, the one that everyone is talking about.

Not Incomprehensible

What appears at first to be a vision of a huge modern alien battle-cruiser (see the movie Knowing) is instead a vision by a priest familiar with priestly duties, neither modern nor alien to the priest. The images are mostly (if not all) things that a priest would have understood if placed into the context of 'Visions of God'.

Connection to Genesis:

Two connections: Ezekiel chapter 1 opens (NIV) with "Visions of God" which could also be pronounced 'Visions of elohim' where God is actually a plural noun, though it is indicative of a single God. This is the same elohim mentioned in the Genesis creation story. The NIV translation says that "The spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels" but I would guess/suggest we consider it means that the 'Breath of Life' was in the wheels. To me it is a vision of life being spread everywhere as the wheels move about, a kind of parallel description of Genesis 1:2 which says "and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters..."

Understanding Who the Man Is

For Israel the man is the LORD breathing life into Israel, but the man is not only a particular being since the vision has levels. Together with the vision as a whole the glowing man represents a process of vivification or revivification, first for Israel and then overflowing. Long story short Ezekiel's vision is of angelic activity among people. Ezekiel has many visions in which he is told that he must speak to Israel -- *But he prophesies to Israel from inside of his vision, within it. His prophesying occurs in the vision.* That is hugely important, because it creates levels of prophecy and makes the vision applicable to anyone. When he says that 'The Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet' this is the same breath in of life that is in the 'Wheels' in the vision. The prophecy that the glowing man gives Ezekiel is also being given by Levites within Israel to the Jews in general (or of practicing Jews to non practicing ones). The reader of the prophecy becomes a prophet. The one who is spoken to becomes the speaker. The image of the vision does not stop at one level, and seems somewhat like the Islamic inner jihad concept. At the vary top and most extreme is the LORD, who is the fullest and most perfect 'Glowing Man'. Then the affected person becomes that to whomever they are prophesying to.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That sounds just fine. Thank you.

The glowing man in the image of Daniel is obviously greater than the other character in the vision who is called Michael. There is no greater image than Jesus. Is there?
 

Dinner123

Member
Revelation 112 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[a] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

That's Jesus. Yes, or no?

Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

That is Jesus for sure.

Daniel 10:5 there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult. 7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. 8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength....13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia...16 Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. 11:1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.).

In this vision of Daniel the one speaking to Daniel (the glorified son of man) and the one touching him (the man Jesus?) are the essential characters. Michael is not present but is someone else.
Daniel saw an angel that looked very similar to Christ. Jesus looked so similar to the angel, because He is the firstborn of the resurrection. His body is glorified. Remember, Jesus speaking of the children of the resurrection said they would be as the angels. (Matthew 22:30) So, those who partake of the resurrection will have this similar appearance. yet, they will vary in the glory of their form. As daniel said this angel's face was like lightening, but John said Jesus face was like the sun. So, there seem to be varying degrees of brightness there. I believe the one who looked like a man and touched Daniel is simply the same exact angel, but he has changed his appearance to that of a man, because Daniel was so afraid of his glorified form.
 
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