What of Hell? Why must there be one? Why must we suffer?

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

The gist of what I was writing is that I feel we are more likely to get an idea of the original writer's original meaning on any given concept by going directly to the source, and working our way out from there. As an example, we all probably remember the little kids' gossip game, where a story is told by the first child to the second, and we all laughed at how much different the story was by the time it got all the way around the room.

When dealing with scriptures I think this problem is compounded by the thousands of years of time which transpires, and further compounded by translation from one language to another to another and so forth. I can imagine a given text referencing Hell or sheol in Hebrew, to have been originally written in Hebrew, then translated to Greek, then later to Latin, then later to Old English, then to the New International Version by the time I get around to reading it. Now, which version out of those 5 is most likely to convey the original author's original meaning? My money is on the Hebrew version.

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Agreed. But even the Hebrew text is subject to interpretation. The Catholic Church for example can read one verse and extract several interpretations that don't contradict each other or other verses. This Tradition is so crucial not just for Catholics but also for Judaism who didn't assemble their Canon of Scripture until 200 AD. The consciousness of the Church could decide and interpret based on "what they knew to be true". Things that were handed down. Granted that under normal circumstances things that are handed down have a range of error attached to them. But as we don't believe Holy Tradition is subject to error because of the Holy Spirit and a promise made to the Church. But even from a secular or non-believing stand point one can at least have some respect from the volumes of early Christian writings and the consistancy in what they taught.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Sheol has always been translated, to my knowledge as "common grave" or something very similar. I am currently reading the old testament, in the King James version of the bible, and I don't, thus far in my reading notice any references to Hell. When God gets mad at someone, and he does a lot, in the OT, he either kills them outright, or has some of his followers kill them. No mention of any torment of their soul, at least thus far.

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The place where we are purged of disordered self-love:
Hebrew: Sheol...R.L. Harris is known to call it solely a grave. Most scholars disagree. This world is commonly used in the OT as a place where both evil and good go. Waiting for final judgement.
Greek: Hades
Latin: purgatorio

"Gehenna" is the word that Jesus uses for hell fire or hell. That's actually borrowed from the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, "ge-hin-nom," the valley of hin-nom, which was where King Manasus sacrificed thousands of Israelite children to Molek, a demon god. After that nobody wanted to live in such defiled land, so it became the garbage dump, with fires continually burning. Nobody wanted to get near it because of defilement. It was a haunt of demons.

It's long winded but I hope this at least gives you a little glimpse into it.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

I think the Christian version of Hell is influenced heavily by Paul's writings (Revelation in particular) and just as much by Dante's Inferno. I can imagine, tho I do not know this, that Hell was a useful concept by the early Church. It is a nice hammer to hold over the heads of your paritioners. Fork over 10% of your income to the Church, and do what we tell you. If you do this, you get a great reward in Heaven, but if you fail to do as we say, then you will be tormented in Hellfire for all of eternity.

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No offense Mdm, but this is typical rhetoric from a scared little boy with a bad father. If you think Christianity has the only scary version of the afterlife then I would suggest you take a deeper look into the afterlife as it relates to the word sheol. This really puts a wrench into the idea that it came from Paul doesn't it?

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Now the poor mideavel peasants hearing this were not sophisticated enough to realize that if this was a physical fire burning a physical body, then there would be a finite amount of burning until said body was totally consumed by the fire. Nor were they sophisticated enough to realize that if this were a literal fire burning their everlasting soul, then a spiritual body (soul) was not likely to be harmed by any literal fire. So in the end I think that the Christian concept of Hell is used in the same way that my Dad used a belt. . . it is used to keep people in line.

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Did it work on you? Like many other things. It works for some, not for others. If Hell was used as a tool as you say it is, then why is hardly mentioned in the NT and many early Christian writings? Besides, how much prettier is it to say "your gonna die and the worms are going to party". But it's reality isn't it? Same thing with hell...

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

I am curious, to those who do beleive in Heaven and Hell, who goes to each? I follow about 7 or 8 of the 10 commandments, personally, but do not regularly attend Church and do not believe that there is any reason to believe that there is a Biblical God, but am a fan of Jesus' teachings of love for your fellow man, and beleive that emulating Jesus is a fine goal. Am I to be cast into Hellfire along with Hitler, Saddam, and Edi Amin?

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I can't even tell you if I'm going Mdm. Do you have a chance of going to heaven? Yes you do. Do you have a chance of going to hell? Yes you do. I wouldn't dare assuming either one for you. God is a reader of hearts and designed a mechanism (The Church, Bible, Tradition) to help people metamorphosize into a full relationship with the Divine.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

I hear from lots of people in my real life that I am, but frankly I find this to be a more well educated crowd than I tend to deal with in my every day life, and am curious to hear what this learned crowd thinks.

What are the minimal requirements to get into Heaven?

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For Catholics: Repent, believe, and be baptized.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

More importantly, what are the minimal requirements to stay out of Hell?

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God will take each one of you on a case by case basis. Cause obviously your not going to get baptized to something you don't believe in. So it's hard to know exactly how He'll do it with people outside the Church. I just know that you can get saved. Maybe He's gonna have a "Love Meter"....

Victor,

First of all, who is that in your avatar?, been meaning to ask you that for a while now.

Secondly, thank you very much for your well thought out response. I fully agree with you that even within the original Hebrew there is much room for interpretation on certain things. That is one of the many problems I have with the Biblical Literalist crowd, they claim innerancy on something you and I, who are known to oft disagree, can agree is open to differing interpretations. How can something be both innerant, and open to multiple interpretations? I know Victor that you are not a literalist, so please don't think I am lumping you into that crowd.

Re: my ideas of our current level of thinking on Hell and its use as a hammer, I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I really do think that Hell was used as a threat to keep people in line, and I think it is still used in the same manner today. I had a father, and I am a father. I was on the receiving end of my father's belt many times, but I cannot for one instance imagine my Dad wanting me to burn even for an instance, certainly not for all eternity, for any transgression. And I can say without any reservation at all, that I would never allow any such harm to come to my children, no matter what the nature of their transgression. I certainly would never allow any harm whatsoever to come to them because they chose to use their rational mind, rather than blindly beleive something told to them by some preacher or priest.

And please lets be clear, I don't think I have a terrible father, if I came across that way previously it was not intentional. My mom, is another issue, and one I shan't go into on this thread.

Also, thanks for giving your opinion on the minimal requirements. Unfortunately for me, Victor, while I could go through those motions, I could not do so while being honest. I can give lip service, tho I would feel incredibly slimy to do so, but I just cannot make myself "beleive" something. Any advice on forcing myself to believe? I can say that I have done wrong, I have no problem with that. And I don't mind someone pouring water over me, or even dunking me into it, (as long as they hold my nose, or allow me to do so) but how does one make themselves believe?

I hope you realize I am not being flippant about this at all. I really honestly wish I could just buy this stuff and be done with it. My life would be much simpler, and significantly better financially if I were able to do this, but I just haven't figured out a way to do this and still be able to stare at that guy in the mirror.

B.

It is interesting to note that fire replaces darkness but Hell has been pictured as a dark place.

2 Peter 2:4 (King James Version)




4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Victor,

First of all, who is that in your avatar?, been meaning to ask you that for a while now.

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MATISHYAHU
Hasidic Reggae Singer....

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Secondly, thank you very much for your well thought out response. I fully agree with you that even within the original Hebrew there is much room for interpretation on certain things. That is one of the many problems I have with the Biblical Literalist crowd, they claim innerancy on something you and I, who are known to oft disagree, can agree is open to differing interpretations. How can something be both innerant, and open to multiple interpretations? I know Victor that you are not a literalist, so please don't think I am lumping you into that crowd.

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Actually, I do think the Bible is inerrant. But perhaps not in the way you see it. Topic for another day.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Re: my ideas of our current level of thinking on Hell and its use as a hammer, I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I really do think that Hell was used as a threat to keep people in line, and I think it is still used in the same manner today. I had a father, and I am a father. I was on the receiving end of my father's belt many times, but I cannot for one instance imagine my Dad wanting me to burn even for an instance, certainly not for all eternity, for any transgression. And I can say without any reservation at all, that I would never allow any such harm to come to my children, no matter what the nature of their transgression. I certainly would never allow any harm whatsoever to come to them because they chose to use their rational mind, rather than blindly beleive something told to them by some preacher or priest.

And please lets be clear, I don't think I have a terrible father, if I came across that way previously it was not intentional. My mom, is another issue, and one I shan't go into on this thread.

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Sorry Mdm, I don't want you think that was a personal blow toward your relationship with your father. Not how I intended it. But more to the point of how Dr. Vitz observed it.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Also, thanks for giving your opinion on the minimal requirements. Unfortunately for me, Victor, while I could go through those motions, I could not do so while being honest. I can give lip service, tho I would feel incredibly slimy to do so, but I just cannot make myself "beleive" something. Any advice on forcing myself to believe? I can say that I have done wrong, I have no problem with that. And I don't mind someone pouring water over me, or even dunking me into it, (as long as they hold my nose, or allow me to do so) but how does one make themselves believe?

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It's choice that one takes. I'm not really sure for others...but perhaps it's different for everybody. It's being open to things that one does on a daily basis anyways. Being subjective. Which becomes more objective in your own life as you grow.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

I hope you realize I am not being flippant about this at all. I really honestly wish I could just buy this stuff and be done with it. My life would be much simpler, and significantly better financially if I were able to do this, but I just haven't figured out a way to do this and still be able to stare at that guy in the mirror.

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Simpler? Better financially?
I understand and respect that Mdm.

interestingly enough, in asatru hell (hel) was (is?) imagined a very cold place. probably because going to a very hot place would be considered a nice relief living up here...

i read somewhere that the catholic church officially declared that there is no hell anymore, at least not in the traditional sense. sadly, i forgot where and i don't know if it's true. perhaps some knowledgeable individual could fill me in on this?

thanks for the matishyahu tip, btw. i love reggae.

divine said:

interestingly enough, in asatru hell (hel) was (is?) imagined a very cold place. probably because going to a very hot place would be considered a nice relief living up here...

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That is actually how I see it as well. It's a very cold place.

divine said:

i read somewhere that the catholic church officially declared that there is no hell anymore, at least not in the traditional sense. sadly, i forgot where and i don't know if it's true. perhaps some knowledgeable individual could fill me in on this?

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They certainly do believe in Hell. I've read documents, none that are official and most are either from the media or some anti-catholic group. I can assure you that the Catholic Church believes in Hell.

divine said:

thanks for the matishyahu tip, btw. i love reggae.

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No problem.

dawny0826 said:

We'll have a spiritual body...but I believe the torment of hell will be every bit a spiritual torment...as it was your SOUL that was damned to hell.

I don't discount the fact that there will be a body in eternal pain but the heart of what is being tormented is the SOUL.

If you believe biblically, you know as I do that we don't live our lives trying to save and purify our physical bodies...we will eventually die and those bodies will be buried...it's our SOUL that lives on...whether in eternal damnation or otherwise.

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Hold on, I thought the basis of belief in Jesus was the resurrection? I thought that was the body being reincarnated and taken to "heaven".

A God of love and forgiveness testing us then sentencing us to eternal torture because we fail? Never.

God has eternal forgiveness for us but He will not force us to accept Him. You can live your life as you wish. You can live an entirely selfish life if you so desire but afterwards what use would you be to God?

If you do not make the connection, fuse your human conscienceness with your God given soul, then there is no hope for you. You must choose to be moral. It must be more important than money, SUV's, and fancy homes.

The material universe is only the beginning. If you worship it more than you worship truth and faith, then the connection cannot be made and when you die the soul will return to it's source and your conscienceness will fade away into nothingness.

Victor said:

GeneCosta, I'm sure you believe in our jail system correct? If you do, what's difference between the two?

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I have to completely disagree with your statement. In no way can you equate jail to hell...
the differences (if hell existed) are far too dire then that of a jail... Here’s why I assume this;

1.) jail is for life, hell, as many religions put it, is ETERNAL!!!
2.) hell is being associated with the dammed in the eyes of god a punishment far grater then any jail could label...
3.) as prescribed by the Christian faith, hell is for a condemned sole that has no chance to receive peace or another chance
4) jail on the other hand, can give a person another chance... (Sometimes)

also, to answer the question by GeneCosta, I truly believe that hell was created by man, much like god and the religion. a way to control the masses.. When you were young did your mom promise to " tell dad when he comes home?" in like fashion, hell is to keep us on the proverbial straight path

Franklin said:

Hold on, I thought the basis of belief in Jesus was the resurrection? I thought that was the body being reincarnated and taken to "heaven".

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You're given a new body once you're there. Or at least that what the impression I've always been under.

CAPPA said:

I truly believe that hell was created by man, much like god and the religion. a way to control the masses.. When you were young did your mom promise to "tell dad when he comes home?"; in like fashion, hell is to keep us on the proverbial straight path

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I agree wholeheartedly. It is just the carrot and the stick approach. Nothing more, nothing less. I do get a chuckle over this though. Most people who believe in a literal Hell, also believe that we live a single life of 120 or so years, max. The logic goes that events within that minor time frame can result in a punishment that will last for billions and billions of years. Not realistic, no matter what happy face is put on it. To top it off, we are told that this noble view of God is merciful and forgiving. I wonder what happens when you get on his bad side, LOL, if this is his "tough love" side.

YmirGF said:

I agree wholeheartedly. It is just the carrot and the stick approach. Nothing more, nothing less. I do get a chuckle over this though. Most people who believe in a literal Hell, also believe that we live a single life of 120 or so years, max. The logic goes that events within that minor time frame can result in a punishment that will last for billions and billions of years. Not realistic, no matter what happy face is put on it. To top it off, we are told that this noble view of God is merciful and forgiving. I wonder what happens when you get on his bad side, LOL, if this is his "tough love" side.

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LOL.. very well said, i too, sit in awe at how ridiculous thoughts like these, can keep humanity in such a tight grip... my faith YmirGF, lies in people, atheists as the world labels them, and, we have the enormous task to;
"free their minds!" –Morpheus

:sarcastic







Cappa's Thoughts

CAPPA said:

we have the enormous task to;
"free their minds!" –Morpheus

:sarcastic
Cappa's Thoughts

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Hey, Dude - It was a movie! I doubt you're Larry Fishburn.

Regards,
Scott

I too find the concept of God illogical. Why would a compassionate God send his creations to a place of eternal damnation? If God was supposedly willing to die for humanity, why would He be sending humans to Hell? The only reason this concept only exists seems to be as a scare-tactic, just another method to convince people to join a particular religion. Believers have just beefed it up with a lot of support that delves into other issues... most won't give you a clear answer, they'll go on a religious rant like: "God gave us Jesus and he died for our sins and if you choose not to believe in him you deserve to go to Hell because you have sin because we are born with sin and etc." God cannot possibly be loving if sends people to hell.

And let's not go with that typical "it says so right in the Bible" deal... it says a lot of things in the Bible that many Christians don't believe in, which means choose what to accept and what to reject in the Bible... I encourage you to reject this absurdity of "hell".

I always believed Hell was just being in sin. Just being without God, being disconnected from God-- that is Hell.

We pretty much send ourselves to hell by rejecting God.

The whole concept of "choosing one's eternal fate" is very real.

Super Universe said:

A God of love and forgiveness testing us then sentencing us to eternal torture because we fail? Never.

God has eternal forgiveness for us but He will not force us to accept Him. You can live your life as you wish. You can live an entirely selfish life if you so desire but afterwards what use would you be to God?

If you do not make the connection, fuse your human conscienceness with your God given soul, then there is no hope for you. You must choose to be moral. It must be more important than money, SUV's, and fancy homes.

The material universe is only the beginning. If you worship it more than you worship truth and faith, then the connection cannot be made and when you die the soul will return to it's source and your conscienceness will fade away into nothingness.

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^ Nicely said! I completely agree.

finalfrogo said:

I too find the concept of God illogical. Why would a compassionate God send his creations to a place of eternal damnation? If God was supposedly willing to die for humanity, why would He be sending humans to Hell? I encourage you to reject this absurdity of "hell".

I always believed Hell was just being in sin. Just being without God, being disconnected from God-- that is Hell.

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I agree.
To fear hell one would have to believe that God's JUSTICE is greater than His MERCY and GRACE. I don't believe that. Hell is not a place. It is a state of being and you can be in "hell" while you still live and breathe on earth - same for Heaven.
Regards,
Scott

dawny0826 said:

We pretty much send ourselves to hell by rejecting God.

The whole concept of "choosing one's eternal fate" is very real.

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In some ways I actually agree Dawny.
You say "choosing one's eternal fate".
I say, "You create your own reality."

In essence, there is not a large difference of intent, as both have distinct results depending on the mindset. (IE. I do know what you are meaning.) That being said, I do not believe in fate, although I do have faith in my ability to make the "right" choices. Predestination would seem to undermine the very point of being and so I decline to even give the concept lip service. Bottom line: One should not need heaven and hell, to be a good person.

Popeyesays said:

Hell is not a place. It is a state of being and you can be in "hell" while you still live and breathe on earth - same for Heaven.

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Precisely Scott, however I do feel that Heaven and Hell concepts, even in this regard, are a poor attempt to describe the human condition. Why muddy the waters with a concept that is morally bankrupt?

Popeyesays said:

I agree.
To fear hell one would have to believe that God's JUSTICE is greater than His MERCY and GRACE. I don't believe that. Hell is not a place. It is a state of being and you can be in "hell" while you still live and breathe on earth - same for Heaven.
Regards,
Scott

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Can mercy rob justice of what is rightfully hers?