• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is hell too harsh?

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

Just in answer to the OP......

The questions are based on a false premise. There is no such place as "a hell of eternal torment" because the punishment clearly does not fit the crime. Suffering for eternity as a penalty for a short lifetime of sin (and those born in sin did not have an option here) does not make God either just or loving. :no:

In the laws he gave to Israel, death was the highest penalty one could pay for breaking God law. Capital crimes were clearly outlined and the penalty was known before anyone ever raised a hand to anyone else. Those who took a life, paid with their own. Those who stole had to repay their victims, either in goods or in service to them. There was no such thing as an unfair law.

There was no incarceration in ancient Israel, let alone torture chambers. Prisons were unnecessary because the law involved compensation to the victim, not being locked up. Prisons were common in other cultures but not in Israel. A city of refuge was the closest thing Israel had to a prison. It was a place of safety for an accidental manslayer who was tried and found not guilty of murder, but because he took a life, the next of kin could legally take his life in return. As long as he stayed in the city of refuge, the avenger could not touch him. He had freedom within the city limits.

In order for the wicked to be punished eternally, they would have to be alive eternally. Since only the righteous are promised eternal life...we have a dilemma. :eek:

There was not one single punishment apart from the death penalty, where a criminal could not pay his debt and be free. Even in ancient times, a wicked person could repent and gain God's forgiveness. Manasseh was one of the most wicked kings in Israel's history but he repented and God forgave him. (2 Chron 33:12, 13)

Christianity was founded on forgiveness. Many of Jesus illustrations were about God's forgiveness. There was always opportunity, but when a person refused to repent, or their wickedness was too great to forgive, they were sentenced to "gehenna" (often translated "hell"). This is where Jesus said the Pharisees would go.....so what is it?

Understanding what this "hell" is will dispel any notions of God frying people forever in flames.

Gehenna was the Valley of Hinnom, just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the city's garbage, the carcasses of dead animals, and the bodies of executed criminals were cast into the flames, which were kept burning night and day by the addition of brimstone. (sulfur) These criminals were not considered worthy of a decent burial because of the person's lawless lifestyle. For a Jew, having no marked burial tomb was tantamount to being forgotten by God in the resurrection. Since Jews did not have a belief in an immortal soul that departed to heaven or hell, they just believed what the scriptures taught them about the resurrection of the dead. Paul spoke about this hope when he addressed a Jewish crowd. (Acts 24:15) There was to be "a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous". Jesus too spoke about the resurrection. (John 5:28, 29) He said the dead were sleeping (John 11:11) If even unrighteous ones will come back to life, and hades is emptied, (Rev 20:13) then what is the point of hell? :shrug: Fire is often used in the Bible to symbolize complete destruction.

Since the Bible does not support belief in an immortal soul, there is no reason to assume that a hell of eternal torment even exists. God never told Adam anything about heaven or hell...only life and death and returning to the dust.

Gehenna is a place where the dead remain dead. They will never see life again. What possible reason could God have for keeping the wicked alive only to torture them with no way to repent and seek his forgiveness? That is not the God of love that I know. That sounds like something the fiendish devil would do. :facepalm:

God grants everlasting life to the righteous and decrees everlasting death to the wicked. Why does it have to be more than that? Does justice demand more? I don't think so.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Well even if Death was a punishment, according to our Jewish Brethren on here it was a sentence rarely if ever carried out. YOu had to do something pretty bad to get to that point.
 

Athan

Member
What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?
I believe some people enjoy being miserable. Hell is suited for those who enjoy misery. You could even say that some people have grown so accustomed to being miserable, that to hear any opinion that goes counter to this state of mind, would be considered hellish and wrong. It really depends on your point of view.
 
What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?
Divine punishments are that which people created in order to exact vengeance and justice which they feel they cannot accomplish. There is no hell really. There is only the separation from God, which may seem like hell. Yet, even then, no one can be completely separated from God, for there is a part of us that is connected to God. God does not punish, but only provides opportunities to redeem ourselves and journey back to God.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Divine punishments are that which people created in order to exact vengeance and justice which they feel they cannot accomplish. There is no hell really. There is only the separation from God, which may seem like hell. Yet, even then, no one can be completely separated from God, for there is a part of us that is connected to God. God does not punish, but only provides opportunities to redeem ourselves and journey back to God.

That's what the aliens want you to think.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Well even if Death was a punishment, according to our Jewish Brethren on here it was a sentence rarely if ever carried out. You had to do something pretty bad to get to that point.

Under the Law, the death sentence was carried out by stoning. (Lev 20:2, 27) The sword was occasionally used, especially where a large number were to be executed. (Ex 32:27; 1Kings 2:25, 31, 32, 34) If a city turned apostate, all in the city were to be devoted to destruction by the sword. (Deut 13:15) At Exodus 19:13, death by the spear, lance, or possibly the arrow, is alluded to. (See Num 25:7, 8.) Beheading is mentioned, although it may be that execution was carried out by another means and the corpse beheaded. (2Sam 20:21, 22; 2Kings 10:6-8) For the more detestable crimes the Law prescribed burning and hanging. (Lev 20:14; 21:9; Josh 7:25; Num 25:4, 5; Deut 21:22, 23) These sentences were carried out only after a person had been first put to death, as the cited scriptures plainly state.

The Jews picked up stones to throw them at Jesus. (John 8:59) Paul also was stoned by his countrymen and left for dead. (Acts 14:19)

Capital crimes under the Law that had the death penalty were (1) blasphemy (Lev 24:14, 16, 23); (2) worship of any god other than Jehovah, idolatry in any form (Le 20:2; Deut 13:6, 10, 13-15; 17:2-7; Num 25:1-9); (3) witchcraft, spiritism (Ex 22:18; Lev 20:27); (4) false prophecy (Deut 13:5; 18:20); (5) Sabbath breaking (Num 15:32-36; Ex 31:14; 35:2); (6) murder (Num 35:30, 31); (7) adultery (Lev 20:10; Deut 22:22); (8) woman marrying with false claim of being a virgin (Deut 22:21); (9) intercourse with engaged girl (Deut 22:23-27); (10) incest (Lev 18:6-17, 29; 20:11, 12, 14); (11) sodomy (Lev 18:22; 20:13); (12) bestiality (Lev 18:23; 20:15, 16); (13) kidnapping (Ex 21:16; Deut 24:7); (14) striking or reviling a parent (Ex 21:15, 17); (15) bearing false witness, in a case where the penalty for the one testified against would be death (Deut 19:16-21); (16) coming near to the tabernacle if not authorized (Num 17:13; 18:7).

Death to a Jew was the end of life. (Eccl 9:5, 10) There was no expectation of an afterlife of heaven or hell because the Hebrew scriptures did not have such a teaching. There was only life and death. (Deut 30:15, 19) Belief in the resurrection was the only hope of future life under the rule of Messiah's kingdom.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
No, because I see the connection you're attempting to make, your response does not flow with the posts preceding it.

They want you to think you're connected to a super consciousness because the attempt to rejoin that consciousness will make joining the Collective... easier.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
We enter hell just about every day, we also enter heaven every day, its really up us where we want to be. Sadly most believe that heaven is in the future, some geographic place in the shy. No, hell is in your mind, heaven is beyond the mind, when you are not concern with the past or future, you are in heaven, here,NOW, ....when you are living in the past or future you are in hell.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
We enter hell just about every day, we also enter heaven every day, its really up us where we want to be.

Where we "want" to be? :confused:....you believe that people choose to experience suffering, pain and hardship? How many people have a "hellish" existence right now through no choice on their part? That is a rather an ill informed statement.

Sadly most believe that heaven is in the future, some geographic place in the shy. No, hell is in your mind, heaven is beyond the mind, when you are not concern with the past or future, you are in heaven, here,NOW, ....when you are living in the past or future you are in hell.
Well if right here and right now is heaven I can think of quite a few people who believe that they are in "hell" in the present.....the past or the future isn't even in the equation because they don't have the headspace to deal with anything but their pressing and immediate problems! How many people do you know who are coping with life right now? Everyone seems overwhelmed, but they don't realize that it is happening to just about everyone, no matter what their situation in life is. Who isn't worrying that they may be developing Alzheimers? Everyone I speak to is having memory problems....just a co-incidence? Or is WiFi frying our circuits?

For the majority, the past has shaped who they became, and their future is largely based on the legacy of their past, so what hope do they have? Just more of the same and the generations learn from their parents and perpetuate the cycle of hopelessness. It only stops when someone breaks the cycle. But how often does it happen realistically? :shrug:

The system as it stands today, sees the uneducated and poor producing more children who will also be uneducated and poor for the most part, whilst those who are wealthy and educated are opting for a well paid career and often no children because they can't fit them into their busy lifestyle. What does the future hold based on that scenario? Where do you think the world is headed as the gap between the ultra-rich and ultra-poor becomes even wider?

For some people, what they understand "hell" to be, can't be much better than their present life.

They need real hope for the future based on the promises of one who can deliver on them, (unlike their political leaders). The problem is, God is an eternal being who doesn't operate in earth time. :(
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Where we "want" to be? :confused:....you believe that people choose to experience suffering, pain and hardship? How many people have a "hellish" existence right now through no choice on their part? That is a rather an ill informed statement.

Well if right here and right now is heaven I can think of quite a few people who believe that they are in "hell" in the present.....the past or the future isn't even in the equation because they don't have the headspace to deal with anything but their pressing and immediate problems! How many people do you know who are coping with life right now? Everyone seems overwhelmed, but they don't realize that it is happening to just about everyone, no matter what their situation in life is. Who isn't worrying that they may be developing Alzheimers? Everyone I speak to is having memory problems....just a co-incidence? Or is WiFi frying our circuits?

For the majority, the past has shaped who they became, and their future is largely based on the legacy of their past, so what hope do they have? Just more of the same and the generations learn from their parents and perpetuate the cycle of hopelessness. It only stops when someone breaks the cycle. But how often does it happen realistically? :shrug:

The system as it stands today, sees the uneducated and poor producing more children who will also be uneducated and poor for the most part, whilst those who are wealthy and educated are opting for a well paid career and often no children because they can't fit them into their busy lifestyle. What does the future hold based on that scenario? Where do you think the world is headed as the gap between the ultra-rich and ultra-poor becomes even wider?

For some people, what they understand "hell" to be, can't be much better than their present life.

They need real hope for the future based on the promises of one who can deliver on them, (unlike their political leaders). The problem is, God is an eternal being who doesn't operate in earth time. :(



You can make all the excuses in the world, but it all comes back to what you believe with the mind, there are people who cannot help where they are in life, but that doesn't mean they should see themselves as a victim.

Its either you make what you have got into a heaven on earth, or you can make what you have got into a hell on earth. I have been raped when I was young, nearly murdered twice, and i had cancer not that long ago, I also have mental illness, I can let myself be in hell because of all this or I can be in heaven, its all up to me.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
Oh, wow... :facepalm: You HONESTLY don't know what the phrase "resistance is futile" is connected with??

Hel's wolves may be common knowledge but the Borg isn't.

Ever seen a depiction of Hel or read about what she will do to you? She was the perfect woman and apparently her ... netherlands will make you feel like a god.

I'm not entirely convinced that it wouldn't be worth it.
 
Top