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Always Atheism vs Christianity?

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
Improbable,

Incoherent ramblings....

No, son, correcting you isn't obfuscating anything, you just demand that your viewpoint not only is absolute fact but that it also includes me... That is simply *edit*.

That isn't a discussion, that is just you carrying on and ignoring everything i say and quite frankly it's pointless.

Either be willing to have an honest discussion or this discussion is over.

This proves your incapablity of comprehending the written language "You are either an Atheist or an Ashkenazi Jew. Which is it? Being Jewish does not preclude having atheist beliefs"

First of all, atheistic beliefs is incoherent and i've already explained why but you didn't read, couldn't comprehend or ignored that.

Being an Ashkenazi Jew does not make me adhere to Judaism, i am not a Judaist, there is a difference between a Judaist and a Jew, there are also messianic Jews, Hindu Jews and Muslim Jews, our heritage and our religion are not intwined in current day, in fact most Jews in Israel are Atheists.

You have this problem because no matter how many times someone explains to you what atheism means you will NEVER get it and thus... this ends our discussion.
 
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Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
"Atheism", restricted to the sublimely estoteric definition of "not believing in gods", does not pertain to any group of people. It is an ELEMENT of religions, SEVERAL religions.
Atheism narrowly construed, yes. There is also the sense in which all religions tend to be atheistic towards the gods authored by other religions. But that's not what we're talking about.

When trying to describe "Atheists" as a GROUP, however, as the OP seems to be doing, it is describing a RELIGION that has atheism as its primary doctrine and doctrine as its primary identification.
It's "primary doctrine" exhausts the entire "religion". So it is not a religion with a primary doctrine- there is nothing to atheism other than this particular doctrine. Clearly then, this is a misleading way of characterizing atheism. And not only is it exhausted by this "primary doctrine", as we've noted ad naseum now it lacks any of the other distinctive characteristics of a religion. Needless to say, it is not a religion in the same sense that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, or any other religion is a religion- if it is not a religion in the sense that every other religion is a religion, then logically, it is not really a religion at all.

And after all, we know what this misrepresentation is aimed at- as I've already pointed out, if atheism is a religion, then it seems to be guilty of many of the things it takes exception to in other religions; conformity, dogma, and so on. It would be really curious if someone was mistakenly trying to construe atheism as a religion because they honestly thought this was accurate- its at least understandable (even if it isn't excusable- as its dishonest) to do so as a rhetorical attempt to critique atheism.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
I believe atheism is based in skepticism. It is a belief that only that which is proven is true although this is always demonstrably false. Without those who have the intuition to see beyond the limitations of that currently known in the limitations of the mind there would be no progression forwards even in the sciences alone. Atheists seem to take a stance in the sciences but mostly as a resistance to the progression through skepticism the same as they do with religion. Maybe the balance is they control some of the insanity.
 
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BlandOatmeal

Active Member
No, son, correcting you isn't obfuscating anything.,.
My father, were he still alive, would be 101. I don't believe you are he; so please don't call me "son".
you just demand that your viewpoint not only is absolute fact but that it also includes me... That is simply retarded.,.
It is the gnostic atheists, who believe that they they are absolutely right (check out your own definitions). They get this from their Christian heritage, which in turn comes from the Christians' Jewish heritage.

As for my being "retarded": if I had called you that. RF would have me suspended for three months. Since you are an atheist, you get a bye.
That isn't a discussion, that is just you carrying on and ignoring everything i say and quite frankly it's pointless.

Either be willing to have an honest discussion or this discussion is over..,.
I believe I said that very thing, several posts ago. I don't think the discussion is over; I think you will repent.
This proves your incapablity of comprehending the written language..,.
Again, you can take shelter in the fact that you are atheist, immune to RF's rules. If I had said what you just said, I would have been reprimanded.
"You are either an Atheist or an Ashkenazi Jew. Which is it? Being Jewish does not preclude having atheist beliefs"

First of all, atheistic beliefs is incoherent and i've already explained why but you didn't read, couldn't comprehend or ignored that.

Being an Ashkenazi Jew does not make me adhere to Judaism, i am not a Judaist, there is a difference between a Judaist and a Jew, there are also messianic Jews, Hindu Jews and Muslim Jews, our heritage and our religion are not intwined in current day, in fact most Jews in Israel are Atheists...
Let's consider Israeli religious practices:

ISRAELI JEWISH RELIGIOUS PRACTICE

Religious PracticeAlwaysSometimesNever
  • Light Shabbat candles 56%22%20%
  • Recite Kiddush (Friday night) 46%21%32%
  • Synagogue Saturday morning 23%22%56%
  • Don't work [in public] on Sabbath 42%19%39%
  • Paraticipate in Passover Seder78%17%5%
  • Light Hanukkah candles 71%20%9%
  • Fast on Yom Kippur70%11%19%
  • Bless Lulav (Sukkot) 26%15%59%
  • Observe Kashrut at home 69%18%14%
  • No pork, shellfish, etc. 63%16%21%Brit Milah92%
  • Bar Mitzvah83%Wedding 87%
  • Burial/Shiva/Kaddish88 -91%
  • Mezuzah on front door 98%Contribute to charity74%
(I suppose you've already noticed that the above are called "religious" practices by the author, Daniel J. Elazar (Don't look now, but I think he's Jewish, so he ought to know what's "religious" and what isn't. Now, let's continue to what he says about atheism in Israel:

ISRAELI JEWISH RELIGIOUS BELIEF

"To what extent do you believe or not believe in each of the following?"Believe CompletelyNot SureDo Not Believe
  • There is a God 63% 24% 13%
All the above can be found at How Religious are Israeli Jews?
You have this problem because no matter how many times someone explains to you what atheism means you will NEVER get it and thus... this ends our discussion.
Ah, again the insults. When you return to this discussion, which I am confident you will do, I expect you will stop yanking my chain and get down to talking about the OP.

By the way, you might be curious how I stack up against Israeli Jews in practice:
  • Light Shabbat candles -sometimes
  • Recite Kiddush (Friday night) -sometimes
  • Synagogue Saturday morning -never (I'm a Friday nighter)
  • Don't work [in public] on Sabbath -always
  • Paraticipate in Passover Seder -always
  • Light Hanukkah candles -sometimes
  • Fast on Yom Kippur -always
  • Bless Lulav (Sukkot) -sometimes
  • Observe Kashrut at home -sometimes
  • No pork, shellfish, etc. -always
  • Brit Milah -"sometimes" (The evidence is there; but my Jewish doctor did it, not a moher)
  • Bar Mitzvah -never
  • Wedding -never
  • Burial/Shiva/Kaddish -never
  • Mezuzah on front door -always
  • Contribute to charity -always
If I were an Israeli Jew, that would make me about average in religiosity; but of course, I am not -- I'm either a "Messianic Jew" or "Others or None", depending on who is defining me.

l'hitra'ot :)
 
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BlandOatmeal

Active Member
This is an evasive non-response. Your lack of a cogent reply is telling- I guess you concede that "red herring" is not an insult nor an accusation of deception, and that you simply had no good reply so you substituted this twaddle instead..
Bad guess -- and I believe calling my post "twiddle" is an ad hominem attack.
And once again, you need to take own advice. Not every religion has all of those traits- but some conjunction of them is characteristic of a religion as such (Wittgenstein's notion of "family resemblances" is extremely helpful here).
"some conjunction"? "family resemblances"? We don't need the definition of a "family" here. Are you trying to lead me down a bunny trail?
The claim that atheism and Christianity are more similar than, say, Christianity and Judaism, or Christianity and Islam, is patently ludicrous, and doesn't require any rebuttal.
I don't believe I claimed any such thing. Western Atheism derived directly from Deism, from which it differs almost imperceptibly; and Deism derives quite obviously from Christianity.

Having said all that, are you ready now to begin discussing the OP? I certainly am, and eagerly await some intelligent discussion.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Atheism narrowly construed, yes. There is also the sense in which all religions tend to be atheistic towards the gods authored by other religions. But that's not what we're talking about.
Sometimes I wonder what "we" are talking about. I know what I am talking about: The OP speaks of "Atheism vs. Christianity". That puts the two in the same category, which on RF is called "religion". If you could accept that straightforward understanding, we could move on to a real discussion. Christianity is not a speculation about the existence and nature of God. It contains such a speculation; and indeed, that speculation is central to Christian self-identity. Atheism, as a self-identifying group (call it and Christianity "religions", "cults" or whatever you wish), also holds such a speculation as its central point of self-identity. The speculation itself, however, cannot be compared with "Christianity", which is not a speculation but a religion.
It's "primary doctrine" exhausts the entire "religion". So it is not a religion with a primary doctrine- there is nothing to atheism other than this particular doctrine.
In terms of the OP, then, you are saying that not only isn't it "always" Christianity vs. Atheism; but the two cannot even be compared. You are certainly welcome to such an opinion; but it would have saved us all a lot of time if you had come out and said as much earlier on.

I am not of such an opinion. I believe that there is INDEED a conflict between "Atheism" and Christianity; and we see evidence of this continually on RF. The "Atheism" I am referring to, and no doubt the Atheism the OP is referring to, is indeed a religion. To be specific, it is WESTERN Atheism, derived from the "founding fathers" of Atheism (Meslier, d'Holbach et al) that is opposed to Christianity. EASTERN, or Confucian Atheism has never had much of a quarrel with Christianity; and it has little or no representation on Religious Education Forum.
Clearly then, this is a misleading way of characterizing atheism. And not only is it exhausted by this "primary doctrine", as we've noted ad naseum now it lacks any of the other distinctive characteristics of a religion. Needless to say, it is not a religion in the same sense that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, or any other religion is a religion- if it is not a religion in the sense that every other religion is a religion, then logically, it is not really a religion at all.
Again, you are identifying "Atheism" with the speculation, which indeed cannot be compared with a religion. Lest we continue in the "ad nauseum" mode, let us please put that notion aside: It is not what the OP is referring to by "Atheism". If you wish to discuss the OP, you need to redefine your terms.
And after all, we know what this misrepresentation is aimed at- as I've already pointed out, if atheism is a religion, then it seems to be guilty of many of the things it takes exception to in other religions. conformity, dogma, and so on.
First of all, I am not mis-representing anything. I don't have an axe to grind in this matter. I am simply trying to compare apples to apples.

Secondly, I don't know how you nor I can consider a speculation culpable of guilt, as indeed you infer PEOPLE, on the other hand, can be and are guilty of all sorts of things. The OP is not about speculations, as I said; it is about people, to whit, about religious people like Christians and Atheists. On this matter, indeed, atheists as a whole are probably more likely to be conforming and dogmatic than their Christian peers. It is that very dogmatism that puts the "vs." in "Atheism vs. Christianity".
It would be really curious if someone was mistakenly trying to construe atheism as a religion because they honestly thought this was accurate- its at least understandable (even if it isn't excusable- as its dishonest) to do so as a rhetorical attempt to critique atheism.
Rest assured, Ena; I am not being rhetorical. I have a keen interest in peoples' ways, and why they are the way they are. As I've said earlier, half my family lives in China, considered by most to be an Atheist country. I have been there, and observed these matters firsthand. I also live in a largely Western Atheist community. I am speaking about things I know very well.

Shalom shalom.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
I believe atheism is based in skepticism. It is a belief that only that which is proven is true although this is always demonstrably false.
Hi, Walk.

If I were to investigate what atheism is "based in", I suppose I ought to start with the "Atheist Bible", d'Holbach's The System of Nature (1770):

"For him, nature's laws are fixed and necessary, and if Man wants to find happiness it is best to accept this - if governments want to rule wisely they should base themselves on this principle. Man's fear of death and desire for immortality should be resisted and those in power should not be allowed to play upon these passions."

-- System of Nature: Baron d'Holbach, Denis Diderot, H. D. Robinson: 9781903083024: Amazon.com: Books
When you referred to "only that which is proven", I presume you were referring to what calls "nature's fixed laws". Though the atheists here hotly deny this, their beliefs are almost certainly along these lines.

The appeal to "nature" as the basis for revelation is found in the ancient Greek philosophers. As I recall, Plato's Republic is full of these notions; and we should bear in mind that Plato gave credit to the existence of a super-natural realm as well. Judaism and Christianity are based on special revelation, direct from God; but they did not develop in a vacuum. Paul said,

Romans 1
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

and

1 Cor 11
[13] Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
[14] Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
[15] But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Without those who have the intuition to see beyond the limitations of that currently known in the limitations of the mind there would be no progression forwards even in the sciences alone. Atheists seem to take a stance in the sciences but mostly as a resistance to the progression through skepticism the same as they do with religion. Maybe the balance is they control some of the insanity.
Perhaps d'Holbach's views were based on skepticism. I cannot discern that from the excerpt I've read and posted about his work. He certainly POSITED a skeptical basis for his conclusions; but we cannot tell from this that he genuinely did not believe in God, or even that he had questions about God's existence. His main point seemed to be that for governments to rule wisely, they must put aside notions of the supernatural and confine their considerations to those based on observed nature -- a nature which, he asserts, is governed by "fixed and necessary" laws.

I believe d'Holbach was, as others credit him with being, a true "atheist". That said, he believed in fixed and necessary laws, which begged the question of a Lawgiver. I believe the vast majority of atheists today hold similar beliefs.

d'Holbach moved in a circle of Deists, as did all the pioneers of modern Western Atheism. As I said in a previous post, the transition in thinking from Deism to Atheism was subtle. Deism posited the existence of a "God", but nebulized Him from the clearly defined Judaeo-Christian (Old Testament) God into one without definite identification. Atheism merely nebulized that God even further, by stages, via Agnosticism. The underlying religiosity, missionary zeal, and pursuit of doctrinal purity that permeated Christianity, however, continued unchanged into Atheism.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I posted this recently on my wordpress blog and thought I would pose the question here as well.

"I notice that most (but not all) atheist podcasts, blogs, etc address christianity specifically. It has been a pretty rare occasion for me to hear them address budhhism, hinduism, paganism, etc.

It makes me wonder if atheists are obsessed with the christians and their bibles. Why is this? Is it because christianity is considered a mainstream religion or is it based on the fact that atheists in question are ex christians (or have had bad experiences with christianity).

I personally think it would be really interesting to hear atheists view points and thoughts on the smaller religions."

I'm sure by now this has already been well covered, but since I'm an atheist and you asked:

It's basically the two things you bring up. Many atheists are ex-Christians, and Christianity is by far the dominant religion in most Western countries where you hear from most atheists.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Bad guess -- and I believe calling my post "twiddle" is an ad hominem attack.
No, not really.

"some conjunction"? "family resemblances"? We don't need the definition of a "family" here.
Yes, "some conjunction", and yes, the notion of family resemblances is extremely useful here, because it corrects the old Platonic error of looking for essences. There is no essence to religion as such, and not every religion has every characteristic I mentioned, just as no two family members have all of the same traits- but "we see a complicated network of similarities overlapping and criss-crossing: sometimes overall similarities... [such as] the various resemblances between members of a family: build, features, colour of eyes, gait, temperament, etc." (PI 66) Once again, some combination of certain features distinguishes a religion. Features which are notably absent in atheism.

I don't believe I claimed any such thing.
Really? What did you mean by this, then-

BlandOatmeal said:
Atheism and Christianity, on the other hand share more with one another than any two world religions.
Last time I checked, Christianity, Judaism and Islam were world religions.

Western Atheism derived directly from Deism, from which it differs almost imperceptibly
Deism "differs almost imperceptibly" from atheism? That'd be news to, well, everyone, especially atheists and deists, since hitherto we've all thought that atheism defined itself by denying precisely that which distinguishes deism as such (belief in a god, regardless of whether it is intervening or not).

Having said all that, are you ready now to begin discussing the OP? I certainly am, and eagerly await some intelligent discussion.
Been there, done that.

Sometimes I wonder what "we" are talking about. I know what I am talking about: The OP speaks of "Atheism vs. Christianity". That puts the two in the same category, which on RF is called "religion". If you could accept that straightforward understanding, we could move on to a real discussion.
Apparently you haven't really been reading my posts to you, because I've already noted that fact several times.

In terms of the OP, then, you are saying that not only isn't it "always" Christianity vs. Atheism; but the two cannot even be compared.
Where have I said any such thing?

The "Atheism" I am referring to, and no doubt the Atheism the OP is referring to, is indeed a religion.
We understand that you feel that way- unfortunately, you've yet to offer any plausible reasons for supposing that, haven't responded to the obvious objection to this claim, or at least offered an argument for a change in our usage of the term "religion", since applying it to atheism would require we redefine the word.

Again, you are identifying "Atheism" with the speculation, which indeed cannot be compared with a religion. Lest we continue in the "ad nauseum" mode, let us please put that notion aside: It is not what the OP is referring to by "Atheism".
Um, it certainly appears to be. Atheism, in the sense used in the OP, is a position (or "the speculation"- an odd term to use here, but OK) with respect to the existence of God/gods generally- that's all. No corrollary doctrines or beliefs, no other commitments, nothing else. As I said, the "primary doctrine" exhausts the so-called religion- there isn't anything more to it. All atheists have in common is that they don't believe in the existence of deities- that's all.

First of all, I am not mis-representing anything.
Well, besides religion and atheism...
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
And since the OP has already been answered, and the thread has long since derailed, let's expand on the obvious objection to classifying atheism as a religion generally. Let's take all the cases that are uncontroversially regarded as religions- Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and so on, and see what they have in common. And when we look at all of these, we see precisely what I described before- not a list of features common to each and every one, but a list of overlapping similarities, some conjunction of which are common to all. Some of these features are-

-a canon
-rituals
-a god/gods
-teachings RE ethics or moral conduct
-teachings RE the origin of the universe/the world/humanity
-places of worship
-recognized authorities (priests, rabbis, Popes, saints, etc.)
-organization, whether loose or strict

Once again, these seem to be the features which make a religion a religion, and distinguish, say, a political organization, or a scientific view, from a religion. And once again, all of these features are lacking in atheism (importantly, I would also note that by the same token, theism, at its minimum as belief that there exists at least one god, is not a religion either). At the very best, categorizing atheism as a religion is misleading and inaccurate, in all but a few particular contexts (usually for expediency).

And RE that last point- you've pointed out, and I've acknowledged, that on RF (and in other places) atheism is categorized as a religion. My previous analogy about baldness is appropriate here- atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair color. In most cases, talking about baldness as a hair color is just going to be misleading or mistaken, but suppose one is joining a dating site and filling out the profile; their eye color, height, age, and so on- and one of the categories is hair color; it would be perfectly reasonable to include "bald" as an option because, well, some people don't have hair (and thus no hair color). Similarly with atheism- some people don't have a religion, because they are atheists (although one can be an atheist and have a religion- plenty of Buddhists are atheists, and there are, after all, even Christian atheists...).
 
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BlandOatmeal

Active Member
And since the OP has already been answered, and the thread has long since derailed, let's expand on the obvious objection to classifying atheism as a religion generally...
It is impossible to answer the OP, without classifying Atheism as a religion. If Atheism is classified as anything OTHER than a religion, it cannot be compared with Christianity. Let us, therefore, NOT expand on your obvious objections; but rather, let us dismiss them.
Let's take all the cases that are uncontroversially regarded as religions- Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and so on, and see what they have in common. And when we look at all of these, we see precisely what I described before- not a list of features common to each and every one, but a list of overlapping similarities, some conjunction of which are common to all. Some of these features are-

-a canon
-rituals
-a god/gods
-teachings RE ethics or moral conduct
-teachings RE the origin of the universe/the world/humanity
-places of worship
-recognized authorities (priests, rabbis, Popes, saints, etc.)
-organization, whether loose or strict).
You seem to be trying to, in your own words, "derail" this discussion. In order to compare Atheism with Christianity, you need to find elements they have IN COMMON (such as, "All are apples", or "All are oranges"), not elements in which they differ. Once having done THAT, you need to look for things in which they differ (such as, "These apples are green" VS. "These apples are red"). You seem to be trying to avoid the obvious.


Let's stop with your side-track here, and begin on the same page. If you will, I will list items that Christians and Western Atheists have in common (as though I haven't already)
  • They are both convinced that they are absolutely right (This is not the case with non-Abrahamic religions, which generally give free reign to syncretism).
  • They are both convinced (read "believe") that the laws of nature are ruled by their god and their god only. In the atheist case, there is no God, ipso facto, the laws of nature were spontaneously generated -- their "god" is "nothing", resembling Buddhism, perhaps, more than Christianity; but definitely a religious belief that can be compared with the Christian belief. Alternatively, their god is "Nature", Whom Christians call "God"
  • Both Atheism and Christianity are strongly proselytizing, as evidenced obviously by the vehemence of the many arguments between them on the Internet
Those are salient points, which seem to be obvious to anyone but Christians and Atheists.

Now, just to let your dead dog be buried, let me deal with the points of "similarity" you brought up:

-a canon

By this, you refer to a body of literature considered "authoritative". The United States Government considers the US Constiution as "authoritative", yet it is not a religion.

-rituals

There is a ritual followed in courts, such as "All Stand", "Order in the Court", etc. The judge sits here, the jury sits there, etc. Courts, however, are not religions. Neither are children who ritually wear costumes to go "trick or treating" religious.

-a god/gods

"Gods" are "religion-defined" entities responsible for the workings of the world we know. Western Atheists do not state who their responsible entities are, so by default, those are the same as those Christians believe in. De facto, let me give them the credit of believing the universe is ruled by "nature". People of various religions consider "nature" to be a god or gods; Atheists consider this entity to be a non-god, according to their religious definition. "Gods" are therefore defined by the "religions", and "religions" are defined by their "gods". That is circular reasoning.

-teachings RE ethics or moral conduct

In any given country, essentially the same ethics and moral conduct are taught to one and all. In the United States in particular, few can afford a private education in these matters. Albert Einstein, for instance, grew up in a Catholic school, as did US President Barack Obama. They were both taught the same ethics and moral conduct, but neither of them is or was Catholic.

-teachings RE the origin of the universe/the world/humanity

Exactly the same applies here as to the previous point.

-places of worship

"Worship" is a religiously-defined term, just like "god". Atheists certainly have places where they gather together for "fellowship", just as Christians do. For those of us in the cracks between religions, like Zadoz, for instance, that place of "fellowship" is the Internet -- where Atheists also tend to fellowship. Worship originally referred primarily to animal sacrifice. Few people do that any more; and most people in the world, including "religious" people, do not gather together in any "place" for their worship: Religious "gatherings" are essentially no different from secular or atheist "gatherings".

I was part of a Jewish congregation for a year. We met in a side-room of a Catholic church. That did not make us Catholics. In my "Evangelical" days, our congregation met in a junior high school. The central places of gathering for Hindus are rivers, not buildings, which were not specially constructed for religious purposes; the Worldwide Church of God used to gather around their radio receivers, etc. In the Soviet Union, churches were converted into museums; and the only church building my wife and I regularly go to is a restaurant. An atheist revolutionary group I was part of once met in a Methodist church.

In sum, there is nothing intrinsically "religious" about the place where "religious" people meet vs. where "irreligious" people meet.

-recognized authorities (priests, rabbis, Popes, saints, etc.)

There are few places in the world, where "religious" leaders hold more sway than "secular" leaders. Meetings are meetings, groups are groups, and most of these have leaders. There is nothing "religious" or "non-religious" about having people in authority.

-organization, whether loose or strict).

Do I even have to answer this? Commensurate to their numbers and concentration, there are probably as many "atheist" societies as "religious" societies. The state I live in is overwhelmingly "theist" (in that the vast majority believe in some sort of god), and overwhelmingly "religiously unaffiliated".

The bottom line is that the points you use to define "religion" define essentially nothing.
 
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BlandOatmeal

Active Member
I'm sure by now this has already been well covered, but since I'm an atheist and you asked:

It's basically the two things you bring up. Many atheists are ex-Christians, and Christianity is by far the dominant religion in most Western countries where you hear from most atheists.
Many atheists, if not the vast majority, are indeed "ex-" Christians. They have abandoned one _____ for another _____. Fill in the blank with whatever word you want: "lover", "spouse", "ideology", "brand of corn flakes", "religion", whatever you may; but if their "ex" is a religion, then so is their current fling.

By the way, I think you have given a legitimate answer to the OP.
 
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Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
It is impossible to answer the OP, without classifying Atheism as a religion. If Atheism is classified as anything OTHER than a religion, it cannot be compared with Christianity.
That doesn't make any sense. The OP asks why atheists seem to focus on Christianity when voicing complaints about religion, as opposed to the other major religions-there's no reason why this requires us to classify atheism as a religion, and it doesn't require us to compare the two. And in order to compare two things, they needn't fall in the same general category anyways.

You seem to be trying to, in your own words, "derail" this discussion.
You were already participating in an exchange RE whether atheism was a religion before I joined in. And as I said, I already answered the OP- the main reason is likely just because Christianity is the dominant religion in most English-speaking countries, and so that's all we hear about.

Let's stop with your side-track here, and begin on the same page. If you will, I will list items that Christians and Western Atheists have in common (as though I haven't already)
  • The are both convinced that they are absolutely right (This is not the case with non-Abrahamic religions, which generally give free reign to syncretism).

  • This is also true of political affiliations like democrats and republicans. In fact, this is pretty much true of humans in every capacity of life- we have a tendency to think we're right. (hint: if what atheism has in common with religions is also shared by non-religions, then that's cannot be a trait which can characterize atheism as a religion... this is a pretty obvious logical point)

    [*]They are both convinced (read "believe") that the laws of nature are ruled by their god and their god only. In the atheist case, there is no God
    So, in other words, this is not a point they have in common at all. Oops.

    :facepalm:

    But now it starts to get really good-

    their "god" is "nothing"
    Ah, so us atheists have been mistaken all along thinking that we don't have any god, when all along we have had a god- one named "nothing". Who would've guessed!

    resembling Buddhism
    Buddhism also worships The Great and Powerful Nothing? Who knew!

    perhaps, more than Christianity; but definitely a religious belief that can be compared with the Christian belief.
    Um, right. Atheists worshiping Nothing is certainly comparable to Christians worshiping God. We sing songs about him and everything.:areyoucra

    [*]Both Atheism and Christianity are strongly proselytizing, as evidenced obviously by the vehemence of the many arguments between them on the Internet.
    Right, and this is also unique to religions, right? Oh wait, people proselytize for, say, political candidates and organizations, and other sorts of causes, and people have vehement arguments about video games over the internet. This is another fail.

    -a canon

    By this, you refer to a body of literature considered "authoritative". The United States Government considers the US Constiution as "authoritative", yet it is not a religion.
    Did I say that everything that has a canon is a religion? Did I say that any one particular feature I listed distinguished a religion? No? That's right, I said some conjunction of the list of features (and perhaps other features I didn't think of, although those were surely the major ones).

    -a god/gods

    "Gods" are "religion-defined" entities responsible for the workings of the world we know. Western Atheists do not state who their responsible entities are, so by default, those are the same as those Christians believe in. De facto, let me give them the credit of believing the universe is ruled by "nature". People of various religions consider "nature" to be a god or gods; Atheists consider this entity to be a non-god, according to their religious definition. "Gods" are therefore defined by the "religions", and "religions" are defined by their "gods". That is circular reasoning.
    Maybe some atheists believe that the universe is ruled by some entity, "nature", but not all do. All that every atheist has in common is that they don't believe in gods- because that's all that atheism is. Atheists do not necessary agree about metaphysics or how reality operates.

    -teachings RE ethics or moral conduct

    In any given country, essentially the same ethics and moral conduct are taught to one and all. In the United States in particular, few can afford a private education in these matters. Albert Einstein, for instance, grew up in a Catholic school, as did US President Barack Obama. They were both taught the same ethics and moral conduct, but neither of them is or was Catholic.
    And as above, I never said that any one of these features distinguishes a religion, or that all of these features were unique to religion.
    -teachings RE the origin of the universe/the world/humanity

    Exactly the same applies here as to the previous point.
    Ditto.

    -places of worship

    "Worship" is a religiously-defined term, just like "god".
    A "religiously defined term"? Its a term, defined in English, that happens to pertain primarily to religion, and certainly has religious connotations- because it is one thing that is usually characteristic of religion. It is often a religious concept- which is why its on the list (duh). And no, this is not circular reason, but nice try.

    Atheists certainly have places where they gather together for "fellowship", just as Christians do.
    No, not really. Most atheists do not meet or hang out just to get together with other atheists, although clearly it may well happen that one's friends are also atheists (which clearly doesn't help).

    In sum, there is nothing intrinsically "religious" about the place where "religious" people meet vs. where "irreligious" people meet.
    Not, in general, true. But this is an irrelevant tangent (although ironically, the exact same applies here- there may not be any one feature that distinguishes a place of worship as such, but there are a group of features, or family resemblences, between places of worship- it isn't as if we can't say this is or is not a place of worship for any given case.)

    The bottom line is that the points you use to define "religion" define essentially nothing.
    Given that you are shadowboxing a strawman here, you're in no position to say this. If some X has, say, a canon, an ethical code, rituals, and a place of worship, but no organization or authorities (i.e. "some conjunction" of the features on the list), it would be pretty uncontroversial to characterize it as a religion. If it had an ethical code, rituals, organization, and authorities, but no canon or places of worship, once again, we could call it a religion. But since atheism has none of the features which distinguish a religion as such, it is misleading at best, false at worst to call it a religion. And its ridiculous that you've stubbornly persisted in arguing for such a clearly false claim (although I suppose you've done the best you can, fighting for a losing cause- perhaps you'd like to argue that Beethoven was a hip-hop artist, or that german sherpards are a type of goat?)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Many atheists, if not the vast majority, are indeed "ex-" Christians. They have abandoned one _____ for another _____. Fill in the blank with whatever word you want: "lover", "spouse", "ideology", "brand of corn flakes", "religion", whatever you may; but if their "ex" is a religion, then so is their current fling.

How did you arrive that such a conclusion?
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Ena,

I admire your tenacity; and I rather enjoy talking with you, when we stay on topic and rise above insults.
That doesn't make any sense. The OP asks why atheists seem to focus on Christianity when voicing complaints about religion, as opposed to the other major religions-there's no reason why this requires us to classify atheism as a religion, and it doesn't require us to compare the two. And in order to compare two things, they needn't fall in the same general category anyways.
Last part first: They DO need to fall into the same general category. Otherwise, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Concerning the OP, it is:
I posted this recently on my wordpress blog and thought I would pose the question here as well.

"I notice that most (but not all) atheist podcasts, blogs, etc address christianity specifically. It has been a pretty rare occasion for me to hear them address budhhism, hinduism, paganism, etc.

It makes me wonder if atheists are obsessed with the christians and their bibles. Why is this? Is it because christianity is considered a mainstream religion or is it based on the fact that atheists in question are ex christians (or have had bad experiences with christianity).

I personally think it would be really interesting to hear atheists view points and thoughts on the smaller religions."
I see your point. My comments mainly addressed the TITLE of the OP. My bad.
You were already participating in an exchange RE whether atheism was a religion before I joined in. And as I said, I already answered the OP- the main reason is likely just because Christianity is the dominant religion in most English-speaking countries, and so that's all we hear about.

This is also true of political affiliations like democrats and republicans. In fact, this is pretty much true of humans in every capacity of life- we have a tendency to think we're right. (hint: if what atheism has in common with religions is also shared by non-religions, then that's cannot be a trait which can characterize atheism as a religion... this is a pretty obvious logical point).
Everyone wants to feel as though he/she is right. Christians and Atheists, however, share a life-and-death interest in being right. In the Christian view, if someone is wrong in their thinking, they are going to hell. In the Atheist view, if the Christians are right in their thinking, the Atheist is going to hell. Christians and Atheists, therefore, are playing a metaphorical tug of war over the Lake of Fire, while the Buddhists, etc. blissfully look on. The Buddhists have their own presumed ticket into the afterlife; the Atheists have no "Plan B". What's more, Buddhists do not insist on being right, even if they would like to: They try to transcend this desire, along with all others.
But now it starts to get really good-
"Really"? I can't wait!
Ah, so us atheists have been mistaken all along thinking that we don't have any god, when all along we have had a god- one named "nothing". Who would've guessed!

Buddhism also worships The Great and Powerful Nothing? Who knew!-
I did; you apparently didn't
Um, right. Atheists worshiping Nothing is certainly comparable to Christians worshiping God. We sing songs about him and everything.:areyoucra!
I don't know what you sing about, in particular. One atheist poster claims to write songs attacking other religions. I can't remember -- Is that you? You might have a more positive outlook on life, if you wrote songs in praise of nothing.

That said, I did hold forth an alternative proposal -- that you worship nature. You can't seriously expect me to believe that the world is run by chaos: There are natural laws, holding everything together; immutable natural laws. Absent a Lawgiver, those laws themselves stand in the place of a God; for they are omnipotent. The atheists posting here, however, try to skirt around this issue by saying that Atheism has no doctrine concerning these things -- only a doctrine (which you call a "non-doctrine") about the absence of what you define as a "God".

Pardon me for not buying that malarkey. Baron d'Holbach had a definite doctrine concerning what governs the world we live in. As I said in a previous post,

"For him, nature's laws are fixed and necessary, and if Man wants to find happiness it is best to accept this."

If you are honest, you will admit that you believe this also. If you do NOT accept this, you are an atheist catastrophist. You may well be this; but I doubt that you are, because I believe that your understanding of these things came from the doctrines of the Christian society you probably live in.

Concerning "worship", moreover, Were you under the impression that "worship" means "singing songs"?? I will give you the Bible definition:

Romans 12 [ESV]
[1]I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

There is nothing there about worship being singing.
entity[/I], "nature", but not all do. All that every atheist has in common is that they don't believe in gods- because that's all that atheism is...
If it is, than atheism actually isn't about anything -- because the only "gods" atheists don't believe in are those defined as gods by atheists. You are chasing your own tail.

My favorite TV show is on.

Shalom :)
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Everyone wants to feel as though he/she is right. Christians and Atheists, however, share a life-and-death interest in being right. In the Christian view, if someone is wrong in their thinking, they are going to hell. In the Atheist view, if the Christians are right in their thinking, the Atheist is going to hell. Christians and Atheists, therefore, are playing a metaphorical tug of war over the Lake of Fire, while the Buddhists, etc. blissfully look on. The Buddhists have their own presumed ticket into the afterlife; the Atheists have no "Plan B". What's more, Buddhists do not insist on being right, even if they would like to: They try to transcend this desire, along with all others.
I can't speak for all atheists as a non-qualifier doesn't tie us together dogmatically. But for me personally I have no qualms over Christianity or this metaphorical tugo f war. The reason is because I don't fear the Christian Hell anymore than the Muslim afterlife, or any other religion and the reprecussions of not following it.

Its a non issue for me. So how would you classify my Atheism? The overwhelming vast majority of the time I don't even think about religion or god. I am on this site debating right now specifically because debating is a hobby of mine and this site is active with interesting topics.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
I can't speak for all atheists as a non-qualifier doesn't tie us together dogmatically. But for me personally I have no qualms over Christianity or this metaphorical tugo f war. The reason is because I don't fear the Christian Hell anymore than the Muslim afterlife, or any other religion and the reprecussions of not following it.
The only reason you don't fear eternal judgment, is that you believe there is no Eternal Judge. If you were to wake up and discover that there WERE such a being, and such a place of judgment, you would fear for your life. You simply cannot afford to be wrong. I dare say, you won't test this by going off a cliff.
Its a non issue for me. So how would you classify my Atheism? The overwhelming vast majority of the time I don't even think about religion or god. I am on this site debating right now specifically because debating is a hobby of mine and this site is active with interesting topics.
God save the world, from people who debate as a hobby! This is not a hobby of mine; if it were, I would be in politics. I have no idea what sort of "atheism" or anything else you trust in.

Luis asked a much deeper question, so I will devote my time now to answering him.

Shalom shalom
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
The only reason you don't fear eternal judgment, is that you believe there is no Eternal Judge. If you were to wake up and discover that there WERE such a being, and such a place of judgment, you would fear for your life. You simply cannot afford to be wrong. I dare say, you won't test this by going off a cliff.
If I told you there was an invisible cliff in front of your next step and you looked down and saw no cliff...would you never take that step and stay right where you were the rest of your life? Or would you doubt my claim and continue walking?
God save the world, from people who debate as a hobby! This is not a hobby of mine; if it were, I would be in politics. I have no idea what sort of "atheism" or anything else you trust in.

Luis asked a much deeper question, so I will devote my time now to answering him.

Shalom shalom
Debate is a fun hobby. Do you think you are actually converting people or bringing them some truth that they didn't know here?

I bring this up because there is a misconception that if an Atheist debates or talks about god there are other implications.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Originally Posted by BlandOatmeal
Many atheists, if not the vast majority, are indeed "ex-" Christians. They have abandoned one _____ for another _____. Fill in the blank with whatever word you want: "lover", "spouse", "ideology", "brand of corn flakes", "religion", whatever you may; but if their "ex" is a religion, then so is their current fling.
How did you arrive that such a conclusion?
Hi, Luis.
"Brand of corn flakes" does not fit in the list. Neither does "ideology", for the most part, because people do not generally commit themselves to ideologies. "Lover" doesn't fit either; because lovers don't really trust one another if they have any sense: They know their partner is unfaithful, because otherwise he or she would have committed himself/ herself in marriage (My mother had a saying: "Why buy a cow, when milk is free?")

The word "spouse" fits better than the others, though still poorly. I trust my spouse deeply; I expect her to come home to me after she is away; I would deeply dismayed to find out she had given herself to someone else. Nevertheless, she is human, and we know these things can happen. She could, of course, die while away; but I would not then refer to her by the cheap word "ex-".

All around then, I have chosen the wrong examples for my analogy. :sad:

A Christian's trust in God is much deeper than than a man's trust in his wife. If there is anything on earth to compare it to, it is a child's trust in it's parents. If a small child were to come home and suddenly realize that his parents were not there, you would have a small sense of a true Christians's plight if he were to discover that his God did not exist.

Atheists, REAL atheists, true to their doctrinal "label", claim to not trust in any higher authority: not in any ruling, universal laws, not in any creator, not in anything other than themselves and other sentient humans. They don't trust in gravity; they don't trust that the ground they stand on will hold them up. They think all is chaos and confusion; they don't trust in any sort of order. That is because they don't trust in anything that they can't see.; because they claim that the UNSEEN world does not exist.

After you're through laughing in your atheism, you MIGHT take this seriously; but I doubt it. I expect you to continue to be an atheist, long after I write this, and to reject everything you don't understand as nonsense.

You cannot see gravity; All you can see, is that apples fall from trees. Sir Isaac Newton found that apples, and everything else he could see, such as the planets, "fell" into one another according to the same, apparently universal, laws. That, in itself, doesn't PROVE that there are universal laws; but Sir Isaac felt he had seen enough examples to conclude that such laws probably exist.

Fair enough. Though at first, it was difficult to win over his fellow scientists to the idea that an invisible force with no physical connection to another object could affect it in this way, they conceded that he was right. If another scientist today, however, were to come up with a different idea and win over the assent of his esteemed colleagues, most people would accept that new idea in place of the old.

So it is, for all the forces of nature: They are invisible; and the fact that they exist at all is scientifically inexplicable. You may not realize this; but it is nonetheless true: We do not KNOW that forces consist of particles; it's a relatively new idea, and we haven't gotten the math to work out yet. We have discovered the "Higgs boson", but we still aren't certain why there even is such a thing as "mass".

These are all invisible things. We think we understand them, but we really don't. Even as I write, massive amounts of money are being spent every day, trying to explain why things are the way they are in the world around us. You have no real assurance, actually, that you will not wake up one morning and see the whole universe around you melting away: You simply TRUST that it will not.

The trust that a Bible-believing Christian has in his God is deeper than that trust. Christians trust their lives, to a world beyond perceived reality, to eternity as we understand it and beyond. Jesus gave his life on the cross, holding onto this trust, though he could at any point have recanted and escaped this fate; and billions after him have held to this same trust, believing that God rose Jesus from the dead.

"Ex-" Christians? These people were married to Christ; they were children of God. They had a trust that could sustain them even after losing the trust of their mates, a trust greater than the trust of a child in its parents; and they abandoned it.

Abandoned it for WHAT??? For NOTHING??? The atheists here aren't saying. All they're saying, is that they have abandoned their trust. That looks very good in print, where things don't necessarily have to make sense; but in real life, EVERYONE lives by trust -- which is to say, everyone has a God or god. Atheists simply do not DEFINE Him as God.

Define away :rolleyes:

Shalom shalom:angel2:

PS. Concerning the OP, this may be the answer to it; I leave it to the readers to judge. As one poster pointed out, however, the OP was looking for comments from atheists. We certainly have had our fill of them here. I I'm not asked any more questions, I will simply fly away. Shalom shalom.
 
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