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Why the Jesus sacrifice?

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It's not a matter of verses; it's a matter of the meaning of the terms "forgiveness" and "atonement".

Atonement means to "pay back" what you owe. Forgiveness means to cancel what you owe. Once a debt is cancelled, it no longer needs to be paid back. If you have to pay it back, it wasn't really cancelled. If you need to atone for it, it wasn't forgiven.
Actually, "Atonement" literally means "At-one-ment." To take two things which are divided from each other, and to reconcile them. This is the etymological meaning of the word, and it's how we Christians (or we Orthodox, at least) continue to use it in terms of what Christ did on the Cross.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Forgiveness is "forgiveness of sins", correct?

If you still must pay a debt for sins, then that debt cannot be considered forgiven.

EDIT:
No verses are needed-- it's the definition of forgiveness that would indicate atonement is unnecessary (or vice versa: that if atonement was performed, then "forgiveness" has not occurred.)

It wasnt necessary or else how were chosen people righteous in the OT? If god says your righteous it doesnt matter what youve done, as if cleansing will make god magically forget.
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
Boy-oh-boy! Folks! These posts show that a new and proper translation of the Bible needs to be done! It should be translated something more like ...

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Rom 5:19 For just-as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 (For) Law also came in alongside; with the purpose that, along with the increase of sin, that it could-thus then supersede sin, with abundant grace.

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I was quoting 5:20-21. Not 5:19.

5:19 reads in my copy reads, "Just as through one man's disobedience all became sinners, so through one man's obedience all shall become just."

I interpret your version of verse 20 to contain the same message as the one I quoted. Basically, that an increase of sin allowed for a demonstration of the supremacy of God's grace.
 

4consideration

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Premium Member
Interesting way of putting it, and it is important since in the past various people have tried to place themselves between us and God. This includes governments, institutions and individuals.

Thanks. Yes, I agree that it happens on many levels.

It is for that reason that I have personally chosen to remove myself from keeping my path within an organized religion. I found that I came upon a place where I had to choose to believe what I really believed to be true and valuable in my relationship with God and certain beliefs that seemed to be required for being part of that group, and I believed I had an obligation to truth as I understand it to be to follow truth as I understand it to be, without trying to fit it within a specific label.

However, I think I should mention that does not mean I think that all organized religion is somehow bad or wrong. I don't. I think it fits perfectly for some people and I see a lot good that can be done in a community from groups working cooperatively, according to principles of goodness/views of right action that they share in common. I see a lot of great value in it, and I appreciate the foundation that religion gave me from early in life. I have retained what I think is right and valuable.

edit: I've been trying to frubal you for two days on a very civil and patient post that you made earlier in this thread, but have been unable to send the frubal. Your response impressed me. I just wanted to acknowledge it.
 
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Awoon

Well-Known Member
Except what you have posted quotes that a seed must die. A "seed" is what becomes the plant. It's like how an embryo becomes an infant. It's a stage in development.

The hidden pattern in the seed becomes the plant. You cant see an apple tree or an apple in the apple tree seed.
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Here is a little more Romans for you.
Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

No one with good sense contradicts the Scriptures by the Scriptures. The law was fulfilled by changing it, Heb. 7:12, a word has been added and put into effect through angels by a Mediator. Acts 7:53, Rom. 5:20, Gal. 3:19
 
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FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
The hidden pattern in the seed becomes the plant. You cant see an apple tree or an apple in the apple tree seed.

Right a seed is made of multiple layers including the embryo. The layers are usually used to nourish the embryo for it to grow and develop. But at no point is there a seed "dying" though I can see what the allegory was trying to say.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
All the naturally born are not God's children because they have been naturally born. See Jn. 1:13
John 1:13 doesn't say 'Naturally born'. It says 'By the will of man.' You changed it, because your view didn't conform to Jesus testimony. For example: you who continually belittle those who disagree with you are attempting to give birth through your own will. That kind of birth is nothing special, and any disciples you get will just be twice as bad as you. Jesus told certain teachers "You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." Its the same thing no matter who does it, and it is the broad road that leads to destruction mentioned in Matthew 7:14
 
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ruffen

Active Member
But if Jesus was murdered and not sacrificed, would that negate everyone who say that Jesus died for us?

And IF Jesus died for us, then the question is back on the table again of why the horrible death was necessary for God to be able to... forgive...
 

InChrist

Free4ever
But we continue to sin, so the payment of debt was just a drop in the bucket.


Actually, from reading the scriptures I see that the Christ's payment for sin covers all the sins of the world...past, present, future, As long as anyone remains alive in this physical world they will at times sin, even believers, yet the scriptures say...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
No one with good sense contradicts the Scriptures by the Scriptures. The law was fulfilled by changing it, Heb. 7:12, a word has been added and put into effect through angels by a Mediator. Acts 7:53, Rom. 5:20, Gal. 3:19
The scriptures are not contradicting.
37 Scriptures That Prove Christians Are Not Under The Law







You are here: Home › Articles › 37 Scriptures That Prove Christians Are Not Under The Law
October 11, 2013 by Phil Drysdale 2 Comments
Many Christians give lip service to the fact they live in the New Covenant.
The truth however is that because they fail to realise they are no longer under the law they are really still living in an Old Covenant reality.
Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!
Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)
Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)
The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)
The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)
Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)
Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)
The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)
The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)
The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)
The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)
1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)
2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)
The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)
The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)
The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)
Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)
Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)
Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)
The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)
To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)
The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)
The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)
The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)
The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)
If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)
The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)
The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)
Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)
Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)
1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)
It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)
Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)
God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)
It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)
It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)
 

roger1440

I do stuff
When there's a division, someone has to self-sacrifice something -- at least their own ego/sense of justice/sense of fairness, etc. in favor of the greater good in order for reconciliation to take place. Are you saying that Jesus' self-sacrifice was "for its own sake?" if so, you don't understand enough about Christian theology to even have a dog in this fight.

What about being of value to humanity? Jesus' self-sacrifice is of eminent value to humanity, for by sacrificing his own life for the life of humanity, Jesus, as the "quintessential human being," places us on a rung above himself in importance.

Nonetheless, self-sacrifice is of value to God when it allows us to get out of our own way long enough to notice God.


"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends".(John 15:13) New International Version
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I was quoting 5:20-21. Not 5:19.

5:19 reads in my copy reads, "Just as through one man's disobedience all became sinners, so through one man's obedience all shall become just."

I interpret your version of verse 20 to contain the same message as the one I quoted. Basically, that an increase of sin allowed for a demonstration of the supremacy of God's grace.

That is not at all what I was saying. Mat 5:20 is translated wrong.

An increase of sin did not come in with the law. It doesn't say that. The law came because of the increased sin.

Rom 5:19 For just-as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 (For) Law also came in alongside; with the purpose that, along with the increase of sin, that it could-thus then supersede sin, with abundant grace.

As shown earlier in Mat 5, the sin and "understood" law comes in with Adam (as by one man's disobedience,) then later written law with Moses, then abundant grace with Jesus (so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.)

- I forgot to add that the "law" here is "nomos" which means regulations - it is not Jesus.

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Skyrim25

Member
That is not at all what I was saying. Mat 5:20 is translated wrong.

An increase of sin did not come in with the law. It doesn't say that. The law came because of the increased sin.

Rom 5:19 For just-as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 (For) Law also came in alongside; with the purpose that, along with the increase of sin, that it could-thus then supersede sin, with abundant grace.

As shown earlier in Mat 5, the sin and "understood" law comes in with Adam (as by one man's disobedience,) then later written law with Moses, then abundant grace with Jesus (so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.)

- I forgot to add that the "law" here is "nomos" which means regulations - it is not Jesus.

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Actually Moses's views contradicted Jesus's views

Moses is the false prophet (The false Prophet told in Revelations)!

Moses created the Jewish law and it is by this very law that Jesus was judged and condemned to died. Jewish law(which Moses says is Gods word) Verses Jesus's word(which Jesus says is Gods word). To this day the Jewish people dont see Jesus as the Messiah because they believe that Jesus was WRONG and Moses was right. Moses talked of a different Messiah with different views and would do different things.

Proof...

1. Moses said that the Messiah was to come on a white horse in armor, then walk into the "Kingdom's Temple" and take the throne. After that the Messiah was to destroy all of gods enemies with the "sword".

Jesus's conflict- Jesus says to NOT live by the sword and nether does God(proves Moses is wrong about the promise). Jesus comes in on a donkey in rags and doesnt even make it into the temple without being outraged and leaving in anger at what Moses HIMSELF HAD CREATED. That same law (moses's law) got Jesus killed because of Moses's misunderstanding of the "Promise Land".


2.Moses's view was one of a vengeful god that lived by the sword. According to Moses God had killed every first born child that didnt put lambs blood on there door. According to Moses God killed innocent children!!!!!!! According to Moses god also had the Canaanites killed by the sword and every man women and child was killed. According to Moses God also killed two cities of gay people and also made many innocent people suffer the plagues in Egypt as well as killing many more during that time...what an unforgiving and evil God!

Jesus's conflict- Jesus says not to live by the sword but instead to live by mercy and forgiveness(this is in conflict with Moses interpretation of god and his actions). How can the Messiah come into the temple and sit on the throne in the kingdom when the throne itself is COVERED in the blood of INNOCENT people(Canaanites killed in cold blood so a Temple can be built in Gods glory) and be called a righteous and justified being? What good things comes from doing bad?

3. Moses "thought" that the promise land was the land of Canaan and that the Kingdom of God was to be there and to build a temple for the Messiah's coming.

Jesus's conflict- Jesus says that the promise land is in you and not actual land at all. This means that Moses killed the Canaanites for nothing and it means that God did NOT order Moses's people to kill them like Moses himself said in the Old testament (meaning that Moses is an out right ...lair... by saying that its God's commandment to kill them for the sake of the Promise Land when instead the Promise Land is in yourself as per Jesus).

Jesus brought the kingdom of heaven down to earth and DID build a temple on it and the Messiah DID take the throne like the prophecy said(in Revelations), it just was not what the Jewish people had expected. They expected the promise land to be Canaan and NOT in your heart like Jesus says. The Jews KILLED Jesus for it because he contradicted Moses's interpretation of Gods promise and Gods word. and its all thanks to Moses's misunderstanding of the Promise land and why the Jews to this day dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah!
 
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Shermana

Heretic
So all the parts where Jesus mentions Moses as a real prophet and the Law of Moses being binding and seeing a vision of Moses must be interpolations in your view? Same would go for when Jude mentions Moses too, right?

It seems like we have a new form of revisionism every single day. It definitely speaks volumes that everyone seems to want to rip him apart from his Jewish context into their own baseless construction, you don't see that with many other prophets now do ya!
 
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