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Great Lent

No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
So, what are our various persons doing to prepare for Great Lent? For my part, I'm both excited and nervous. The fast, if observed strictly, can be difficult, so I'm praying to prepare myself, but I'm also trying to better learn how to feed myself without fudging on oils this time (something I haven't succeeded in yet; I always fail).
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
No*s said:
So, what are our various persons doing to prepare for Great Lent? For my part, I'm both excited and nervous. The fast, if observed strictly, can be difficult, so I'm praying to prepare myself, but I'm also trying to better learn how to feed myself without fudging on oils this time (something I haven't succeeded in yet; I always fail).
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Well, I think we constitute the sum total of the Orthodox on this forum now, so you probably won't get too many replies to this thread. I haven't actually given too much thought to Lent recently because I have other things to sort out (my daughter is being baptised on Meatfare Sunday) but I did already beginning planning what I would do earlier this year.

Last year I lost an awful lot of weight by being a little too legalistic (and I didn't have much weight to lose!) so I'm not going to do that again. I try to stick as closely as I can to the fasting guidelines but last year this lead me to start analysing labels. The best piece of advice I've had since then was, don't read labels at all. If you can't tell that it's forbidden without reading the minutiae of the ingredients list then you might as well eat it because worrying about every little detail is counterproductive. I intend to follow that advice.

By the way, what exactly do you mean by fudging on oils? I don't know which church you're in or what the specific fasting tradition is for it, but I know they differ (for instance Slavs often take the prohibition of wine literally and allow beer whereas we don't allow any alcohol.) In the Romanian tradition it is only olive oil that is forbidden. Vegetable oil (untdelemn - wood butter, amusingly) is allowed, so whilst I will avoid olive oil and reduce my oil intake generally, I'm not about to give up using sunflower oil completely. Are you intending to drop all oils? That certainly would not be possible for me unless I wanted to make myself ill.

Anyway, it's good to see you back here. Hopefully you'll stay and I won't return to being the only Orthodox voice on the forum.

James
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Perhaps failure is the point?

Matthew 26:40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." NIV
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
NetDoc said:
Perhaps failure is the point?

Matthew 26:40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." NIV
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Well, I'm not sure that failing is the point, but it certainly seems to be inevitable. All we can do is try our best and pick ourselves up when we fall. Beating ourselves up about failure is obviously counter productive, though.

James
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I'm not Orthodox at all, and hope that there is no issue with me asking these questions. It just hit me when I read No*s' OP. Now I am thinking of ALL of those scriptures that deal with failure.
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
JamesThePersian said:
Well, I'm not sure that failing is the point, but it certainly seems to be inevitable. All we can do is try our best and pick ourselves up when we fall. Beating ourselves up about failure is obviously counter productive, though.

James
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This makes me think of various doctrines that could possibly revolve around this very view. Seeing it one way will either lead you toward more of what NetDoc holds. Seeing it another way will lead toward Eastern Orthodoxy and yet anther toward Roman Catholic. It is quite interesting and I don't think (although one can have a very skewed view) differing views will always necessarily lead you toward heresy or a "false Christ" or whatever other word one wishes to use. For example, in RC theology we do believe that God can in fact pour "more Grace" on an individual (Marian Doctrines) but that we all receive sufficient Grace to be saved. Praying for the dead and others also revolves around such a view.

No's sorry to hijack your thread I just wanted to share what popped to mind and I too struggle through Lent and would ask that you pray for me as I will do for you all.

Peace be with you,
~Victor
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
JamesThePersian said:
Well, I think we constitute the sum total of the Orthodox on this forum now, so you probably won't get too many replies to this thread. I haven't actually given too much thought to Lent recently because I have other things to sort out (my daughter is being baptised on Meatfare Sunday) but I did already beginning planning what I would do earlier this year.

Last year I lost an awful lot of weight by being a little too legalistic (and I didn't have much weight to lose!) so I'm not going to do that again. I try to stick as closely as I can to the fasting guidelines but last year this lead me to start analysing labels. The best piece of advice I've had since then was, don't read labels at all. If you can't tell that it's forbidden without reading the minutiae of the ingredients list then you might as well eat it because worrying about every little detail is counterproductive. I intend to follow that advice.

By the way, what exactly do you mean by fudging on oils? I don't know which church you're in or what the specific fasting tradition is for it, but I know they differ (for instance Slavs often take the prohibition of wine literally and allow beer whereas we don't allow any alcohol.) In the Romanian tradition it is only olive oil that is forbidden. Vegetable oil (untdelemn - wood butter, amusingly) is allowed, so whilst I will avoid olive oil and reduce my oil intake generally, I'm not about to give up using sunflower oil completely. Are you intending to drop all oils? That certainly would not be possible for me unless I wanted to make myself ill.

Anyway, it's good to see you back here. Hopefully you'll stay and I won't return to being the only Orthodox voice on the forum.

James
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My priest has me set the rules, he approves, but he asks that I do so consistently. I tend to consider the fried foods and luxury foods like that as being caught by the oil regulation, while peanuts and the like not caught. It's pretty arbitrary, but if I apply it consistently, he approves. I say I might "fudge," because I work in a convenience store and those honey buns will call to me :D.

I watch the "lose weight" issues. I'm always quite skinny and can't lose much; I use too much energy in the day, and if I don't eat sufficiently, I know it very quickly, because I feel weak. I won't be limiting my quantity very strictly, simply because I don't want to get sick, but since I am a rather picky eater, my priest agrees that limiting what I eat will have its desired effect on me :).
 
fromthe heart

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
I was wondering if those who Do partcipate in these rituals would care to share with us the reason you do this and when it begins/ends and what the rules are so we can all have a better understanding of what Lent means to each of us??? A lot of folks do not choose to follow these things but for those who haven't that would like to be more scriptural in doing it please tell us details if you will? I understand there are a lot of differing opinions on this as there is in every other view of Scripture.:)
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc said:
I'm not Orthodox at all, and hope that there is no issue with me asking these questions. It just hit me when I read No*s' OP. Now I am thinking of ALL of those scriptures that deal with failure.
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We do it to control our passions, which separate us from God and subject us to sin. That said, however, failing leads to humility. We shouldn't desire to fail, per se, but when we inevitably do, it reminds me, at least, how weak and dependent I am.
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
No*s said:
We do it to control our passions, which separate us from God and subject us to sin. That said, however, failing leads to humility. We shouldn't desire to fail, per se, but when we inevitably do, it reminds me, at least, how weak and dependent I am.
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So true and lovely response..:clap
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
fromthe heart said:
I was wondering if those who Do partcipate in these rituals would care to share with us the reason you do this and when it begins/ends and what the rules are so we can all have a better understanding of what Lent means to each of us??? A lot of folks do not choose to follow these things but for those who haven't that would like to be more scriptural in doing it please tell us details if you will? I understand there are a lot of differing opinions on this as there is in every other view of Scripture.:)
Click to expand...

The rules change :). It depends on the priest, bishop, culture, etc. By and large, there is no meat, cheese (or the related), fish, oils (I tend to regard it as cooking oils), or alchohol. None of these, though, are absolute, and any given one can change. Some people only do no meat, others do all that and more. It's a personal matter between the believer, his priest, and God.

The fast begins forty days before Easter to commemorate the crucifixion and resurrection. When Easter comes, the release of the fast causes palpable joy in those who participate. Lent, itself, is simply an Old English word that means "spring" (from lencten), hence "the spring fast" from when England was Orthodox.

More importantly, our passions separate us from God and change our perception of Him. By limiting them, we learn not to sin, and if done in a spirit of love, learn humility and love when addressing others.

Lent isn't a Scriptural practice. It arose after the time of the New Testament, but it is a tradition tied to Easter, another extra-biblical tradition. Scriptural rules intersect that we should not judge another's fasting practices and not make a show of it.

Vic: I think this addresses your point as well. I'll definately pray for everyone on the fast :)
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Way cool.

Romans 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. NIV

No*s said:
We do it to control our passions, which separate us from God and subject us to sin. That said, however, failing leads to humility. We shouldn't desire to fail, per se, but when we inevitably do, it reminds me, at least, how weak and dependent I am.
Click to expand...
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
No*s said:
The fast begins forty days before Easter to commemorate the crucifixion and resurrection. When Easter comes, the release of the fast causes palpable joy in those who participate. Lent, itself, is simply an Old English word that means "spring" (from lencten), hence "the spring fast" from when England was Orthodox.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about this etymology? You might be correct, but I'd always thought that lent and lenten came from the Old English word for fasting. Lenten foods are fasting foods, Great Lent (I know that not all of this is Great Lent but we actually fast for about 50 days prior to Pascha, to one degree or another) is the longest fast in the year, the Nativity Lent is the fast before the Feast of the Nativity etc. Spring just doesn't seem to fit. Of course, I'm more familiar with the Romanian terminology thanthe English where Post (Lent) definitely means fast, so I might just be confusing things.

As to the rules people asked about, not only does it depend on the culture, bishop and (especially) the advice of your spiritual father, it also depends on the day. Traditionally you have a complete fast on Clean Monday (the first Monday in Lent) and there are several other days when the tradition is 'nil by mouth'. Usually, though, a strict day is one without meat, fish, dairy, oil and wine (subject to cultural interpretation). Interestingly, shellfish are allowed on strict days as they were originally considered poor people's food. Most modern, western Orthodox, however, avoid them because nowadays they are considered rich food. There's basically a heirarchy as follows (those at the top are always forbidden in a fast, those at the bottom only on strict days):

Meat
Dairy (including eggs)
Fish
Wine, oil and shellfish.

Those from the Slavic traditions tend to interpret oil as all cooking oils and wine as wine and strong alcohol only. Those in the Greek and Romanian traditions (and maybe others) tend to interpret oil as olive oil only and wine as all alcohol. Other aspects of fasting are that we are supposed to reduce our food intake in general (one meal in the evening is often recommended), we are supposed to refrain from sex, we are supposed to spend more time in prayer and spiritual reading and we are meant to give more alms (which should be easy given the savings on food bills.

James
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
JamesThePersian said:
Are you sure about this etymology? You might be correct, but I'd always thought that lent and lenten came from the Old English word for fasting. Lenten foods are fasting foods, Great Lent (I know that not all of this is Great Lent but we actually fast for about 50 days prior to Pascha, to one degree or another) is the longest fast in the year, the Nativity Lent is the fast before the Feast of the Nativity etc. Spring just doesn't seem to fit. Of course, I'm more familiar with the Romanian terminology thanthe English where Post (Lent) definitely means fast, so I might just be confusing things.
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Thanks for complimenting what I wrote James :).

I'm pretty sure of it. I doublechecked the existance of lencten in my Old English dictionary. I also checked dictionary.com when you asked, and it gave the same etymology I did:
Middle English lenten, lente, spring, Lent, from Old English lencten. See del-1 in Indo-European Roots.
Click to expand...

Past that I really can't say. My etymology may agree with them, but I'm hardly an expert :eek:.
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
No*s said:
Thanks for complimenting what I wrote James :).

I'm pretty sure of it. I doublechecked the existance of lencten in my Old English dictionary. I also checked dictionary.com when you asked, and it gave the same etymology I did:


Past that I really can't say. My etymology may agree with them, but I'm hardly an expert :eek:.
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Yeah. I've seen equally weird etymologies in a number of languages (for instance the Romanian word for earth/soil comes from the Latin pavimentum - pavement!). It just goes to show how much words evolve over time. Lent/lenten now clearly appears to be synonymous with fast/fasting (though it seems to be used exclusively with regards to Christianity) but I can quite believe that it does actually come from spring - it's just odd.

I'm glad you didn't think my supplementary post was aimed at you. I was a little worried that my intentions might not come across clearly in a forum and you'd think I was patronising you. Glad I avoided that.

James
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
JamesThePersian said:
I'm glad you didn't think my supplementary post was aimed at you. I was a little worried that my intentions might not come across clearly in a forum and you'd think I was patronising you. Glad I avoided that.
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Nah, I can be rather vague (at least when not arguing), we're part of a rather odd religion compared to the others, and we can all compliment each other (heck, I supplement other people's posts pretty regularly lol).
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
No*s said:
Nah, I can be rather vague (at least when not arguing), we're part of a rather odd religion compared to the others, and we can all compliment each other (heck, I supplement other people's posts pretty regularly lol).
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That's good, because I've done it to you again today. I must say that it's unusual, and rather nice, to be in a position where I'm able to bounce off someone else who shares my beliefs rather than being the sole Orthodox Christian on here. Sometimes I've been able to do the same with RCs like Victor, but we do still have our differences.

James
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
It is nice to be able to do that :). There used to be a bunch more on here, but that was waaay back about six months ago before I went on my forced hiatus.
 
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