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I want my kid taught......

The Sum of Awe

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Falvlun said:
Should we do that when we are teaching about the solar system too? We can have the Ptolemic model right up there with the heliocentric one. Maybe we can also talk about mysterious ether that fills up space vs a vacuum.

I mean, where would this stop? What is the benefit of teaching both alongside the other, and having kids choose?
Click to expand...

Why begin at evolution? Of course, most people here would agree it's logical to teach evolution because of the evidence, but the fact that there are few that don't believe in it that don't have mental disorders means there is still an opinion basis.

Or how about, teach neither? Teach how genetics work, teach all of the things that affect us modernly biologically.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
LuisDantas said:
Uh... I must then ask. Are you serious?
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Completely. I am not threatened by the existence of YECs. They're not stealing my food, destroying my property, or threatening my life or livelihood in any fashion. Why the blazes would I consider them dangerous? It honestly boggles my mind that anybody would be so afraid of them. They're not some bloody terrorist organization. If I am "gravely mistaken" because I understand they pose virtually no threat whatsoever to the survival of my species or of myself, so be it. They don't. I'll spend my time being concerned about non-trivial and legitimately threatening issues to me or my species. Like global climate change and short-sighted mismanagement of natural resources. Or the systematic oppression of women. Or hate crimes. :shrug:

LuisDantas said:
Afraid of questioning parents and religious authority, for starters. And of finding out the available scientific knowledge, or of discussing it honestly without resorting to fallacy or dishonesty.
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How do we know they're afraid, exactly? Do we have evidence to substantiate this claim? If someone is following a tradition or a way of life they were brought up in, are they motivated by fear or by social kinship bonds? Or is it a combination of both? I don't think it's accurate to write it off as fear. There's more going on than that. And I think there's no small amount of fear on the other side as well; if one is threatened enough by something to be against it, one probably fears what it represents. Makes an interesting introspective exercise, actually... I can definitely say the things I am most venomously against are the things I fear the most. This issue is not even remotely on my list.

As for the second part, I feel that is more of a systemic issue of how education is structured in my country. Science education has issues, and this is known. Or perhaps even a systematic issue of intrinsic to all human psychology. Humans are simply not rational creatures by default, and this is also known. It's probably both. Either way, I don't really consider YEC a significant threat and am certainly not going to blame it for failures of critical thinking or empirically naturalistic knowledge. That's giving both humanity and science far too little credit in my mind; both are quite resilient.
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Quintessence said:
Completely. I am not threatened by the existence of YECs. They're not stealing my food, destroying my property, or threatening my life or livelihood in any fashion. Why the blazes would I consider them dangerous? It honestly boggles my mind that anybody would be so afraid of them. They're not some bloody terrorist organization. If I am "gravely mistaken" because I understand they pose virtually no threat whatsoever to the survival of my species or of myself, so be it. They don't. I'll spend my time being concerned about non-trivial and legitimately threatening issues to me or my species. Like global climate change and short-sighted mismanagement of natural resources. Or the systematic oppression of women. Or hate crimes. :shrug:
Click to expand...
The way we educate our children and the protection of the natural sciences from the influence of superstition is an important issue, to be fair. The argument of "we should spend more time being concerned about other stuff" is a nonsense argument. Just because some things may matter more doesn't mean that there is no possible justifiable concern with regards to this particular issue. In terms of science, the education of people on science, perceptions of science, understanding of facts and the education of children in America and around the world, young earth creationism is a serious issue that is deserving of devoting time to.

It is not merely an idea confined to ideological discussion groups; it is a movement with a great many adherents looking to push its teachings into schools, spread misinformation about science (knowingly or otherwise), and attempt to use public schools to promote a religious agenda. As a movement, creationism exists exclusively as a response to, and movement against, the scientific concept of evolution and it is practically impossible to separate creationism as an ideology from the promotion of anti-science and attempts to de-legitimize actual science with the end goal of forcing theistic ideologies onto children. To say that this isn't worth devoting effort to opposing strikes me as naive at best and stultifyingly ignorant at worst.
 
Monk Of Reason

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
The Sum of Awe said:
Why begin at evolution? Of course, most people here would agree it's logical to teach evolution because of the evidence, but the fact that there are few that don't believe in it that don't have mental disorders means there is still an opinion basis.

Or how about, teach neither? Teach how genetics work, teach all of the things that affect us modernly biologically.
Click to expand...
Because knowledge of evolution is every bit as key to our daily lives as knowledge that the sun is made of hydrogen turning into helium in a nuclear explosion.

Some argue sever religious based denail of reality to be a mental disorder. In fact replace the fact that the denial comes from religion and put in the word "delusion" then it is a mental disorder. Or it can be considered brainwashing if it was done by someone in a cult whose nonesense was not widely believed or accepted.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Pegg said:
no, i mean that it is a speculative science. It was constructed long before there was any physical evidence for it.
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Oh, you mean like fossil records, bacteria developing resistance to drugs, Elephants evolving smaller tusks due to poaching, etc?

Jeesh, and I thought the education system in the U.S. was bad. :facepalm:
 
fantome profane

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Quintessence said:
Completely. I am not threatened by the existence of YECs. They're not stealing my food, destroying my property, or threatening my life or livelihood in any fashion. Why the blazes would I consider them dangerous? It honestly boggles my mind that anybody would be so afraid of them. They're not some bloody terrorist organization. If I am "gravely mistaken" because I understand they pose virtually no threat whatsoever to the survival of my species or of myself, so be it. They don't. I'll spend my time being concerned about non-trivial and legitimately threatening issues to me or my species. Like global climate change and short-sighted mismanagement of natural resources. Or the systematic oppression of women. Or hate crimes. :shrug:



How do we know they're afraid, exactly? Do we have evidence to substantiate this claim? If someone is following a tradition or a way of life they were brought up in, are they motivated by fear or by social kinship bonds? Or is it a combination of both? I don't think it's accurate to write it off as fear. There's more going on than that. And I think there's no small amount of fear on the other side as well; if one is threatened enough by something to be against it, one probably fears what it represents. Makes an interesting introspective exercise, actually... I can definitely say the things I am most venomously against are the things I fear the most. This issue is not even remotely on my list.

As for the second part, I feel that is more of a systemic issue of how education is structured in my country. Science education has issues, and this is known. Or perhaps even a systematic issue of intrinsic to all human psychology. Humans are simply not rational creatures by default, and this is also known. It's probably both. Either way, I don't really consider YEC a significant threat and am certainly not going to blame it for failures of critical thinking or empirically naturalistic knowledge. That's giving both humanity and science far too little credit in my mind; both are quite resilient.
Click to expand...
It is not about being threatened by young earth creationists. Just as we are not threatened by children who have had no exposure to art or literature. I am not threatened by children who don't know how to read either.

But I believe that children have the right to a solid scientific education. I believe education has an intrinsic value, I believe it adds immeasurably to our appreciation of life. And science education is as much a part of that as anything else.

It was not that long ago that most people grew up never learning to read. All they could hope for was enough food to live and basic shelter. Today we hope for more, not only for ourselves, but for all humanity. I am not saying we should force anything on anybody, but when somebody denies themselves and their children an education I think it is an absolute tragedy. And don't tell me that education in evolution is not part of that, because it is.

Yes, most people will survive just fine without an education in evolution. But we should hope for more.
 
I

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Personally I AM afraid of them, not at a personal level - but rather at the damage their (but that is not YEC'ers alone - they are merely one of the more apparent groups) ideologically based perception of the world is doing to the fundamental underpinnings of society wide services in particular with relation to education and the effects that has on our industries and in turn economies and ultimately geopolitical position into the future.

Anyone who would pervert education so as to render it indoctrination is destroying the sustainability of modern societies particularly with regard to our capacity to develop human resources capable of sustaining high achievers in intellectual fields required for cutting edge research and development and even merely sustaining what we currently have. I fear that they have weakened our position with regards to intellectual advancement of children to such a point that it shows now quite significantly in higher education facilities such as universities and that this has had a flow on effect to national industries - which is only likely to become more pronounced as locally educated graduates seek employment overseas (which serves to make foreign employment more attractive in the future, a compounding effect).

I fear their attempts to instill credulity have deprived us of a generation of thinkers and have put us in a situation where the thinkers of tomorrow may be less inclined to settle in those nations so effected.


EDIT: Actually I found a nice clip for this post which actually adds some things I had not really considered that much (in terms of facilitating high achieving individual learners as opposed to group education dynamics)
Michio Kaku: The Secret Weapon of American Science - YouTube
 
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Raban

Raban

Hagian
Even though I live in the Bible Belt of Texas, we have never talked about Creationism in any Science class, only theories regarding evolution. We are also taught about the Big Bang, rather than seven day Creation. Even though I am religious I am extremely grateful for this and believe this (or other scientific theories) is the only thing that should be taught in SCIENCE classes.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
QuietRain100 said:
It their first day in junior high, or middle school...their first real touch with a science teacher....with biology, etc.

You would like your to be taught............

Evolution only, its science fact.

Creationism only, teach the Controversy, evolution is a lie.

Both, but in seperate classes.

Neither..or other.
Click to expand...
I would want my child to take the evolution class because I would want to read his or hers text book. It’s been many years since I been in school. I must have forgotten that evolution is a “fact”. It would be a good review for me.

I have a question for you. Of the hundreds of creation stories that exist, which one should go to the head of the class? Obviously, a child cannot be taught all of them.
 
Valjean

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mythology and magical thinking are dangerous. It opens one up to all sorts of dysfunctional ideas and practices.

I'll bet the terrorists in the Kenya mall have no understanding of the basic concepts of evolution theory, and the Taj hotel terrorists turned out to be uneducated hicks.
Ignorance renders one a tool of anyone with an agenda.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Quintessence said:
Completely. I am not threatened by the existence of YECs. They're not stealing my food, destroying my property, or threatening my life or livelihood in any fashion. Why the blazes would I consider them dangerous? It honestly boggles my mind that anybody would be so afraid of them. They're not some bloody terrorist organization. If I am "gravely mistaken" because I understand they pose virtually no threat whatsoever to the survival of my species or of myself, so be it. They don't. I'll spend my time being concerned about non-trivial and legitimately threatening issues to me or my species. Like global climate change and short-sighted mismanagement of natural resources. Or the systematic oppression of women. Or hate crimes. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Too bad then. I simply will not agree.

Far as I can honestly tell, you are badly underestimating the consequences of that mindset. It boggles my mind that you don't see it; it is just so plain.


How do we know they're afraid, exactly? Do we have evidence to substantiate this claim?
Click to expand...

Of course. We live with them, we hear them, we see their behavior. It is plain to see.


If someone is following a tradition or a way of life they were brought up in, are they motivated by fear or by social kinship bonds? Or is it a combination of both?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is a combination of both, unavoidably. There is little true difference between both motivations, although positive elements of course exist as well.

Positive motivations, however, would not need to disregard or misrepresent or avoid actual scientific findings, nor create fantasies of scientific conspiracies. They would be healthy.


I don't think it's accurate to write it off as fear. There's more going on than that. And I think there's no small amount of fear on the other side as well; if one is threatened enough by something to be against it, one probably fears what it represents.
Click to expand...

Oh, but I certainly do. I am saying plainly that it is dangerous and harmful.

Magical thinking, when it grows to the levels it currently exists, is indeed dangerous.

We can't very well afford to be irrational at a point in history when war is seen as an unavoidable fact and the standard weapons of most conflicts kill from a distance and the decisive factors of warfare are economical prowess and religious fanaticism.

And there is an even more serious, subtler damage done at the family level as well. It is not healthy to be grown under the shadow of Creationism. It breeds superstition, self-importance beliefs, and simple dishonesty.


Makes an interesting introspective exercise, actually... I can definitely say the things I am most venomously against are the things I fear the most. This issue is not even remotely on my list.
Click to expand...

That I see. I do not understand it, but I can certainly see it.


As for the second part, I feel that is more of a systemic issue of how education is structured in my country. Science education has issues, and this is known. Or perhaps even a systematic issue of intrinsic to all human psychology. Humans are simply not rational creatures by default, and this is also known. It's probably both. Either way, I don't really consider YEC a significant threat and am certainly not going to blame it for failures of critical thinking or empirically naturalistic knowledge. That's giving both humanity and science far too little credit in my mind; both are quite resilient.
Click to expand...

I guess I must agree to disagree with you on this matter then. Neither of us seem inclined to concede any further.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The Sum of Awe said:
Why begin at evolution? Of course, most people here would agree it's logical to teach evolution because of the evidence, but the fact that there are few that don't believe in it that don't have mental disorders means there is still an opinion basis.
Click to expand...

Not really. It just shows that ignorance is powerful.

Or how about, teach neither? Teach how genetics work, teach all of the things that affect us modernly biologically.
Click to expand...

That is in effect teaching evolution. It can't really be separated from genetics - or from biology, as a matter of fact.
 
Aquitaine

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
QuietRain100 said:
It their first day in junior high, or middle school...their first real touch with a science teacher....with biology, etc.

You would like your to be taught............

Evolution only, its science fact.

Creationism only, teach the Controversy, evolution is a lie.

Both, but in seperate classes.

Neither..or other.
Click to expand...

Wow this one's pretty easy: Evolution only. :yes:

If they want to learn about myths and supernatural magic creatures, then the Fantasy section of the local library shall suffice.

 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Father Heathen said:
Oh, you mean like fossil records, bacteria developing resistance to drugs, Elephants evolving smaller tusks due to poaching, etc?

Jeesh, and I thought the education system in the U.S. was bad. :facepalm:
Click to expand...


The fossil record offers no support for evolution, bacteria developing resistance to drugs shows variation within a bacterial kind, and elephants with smaller tusks are still elephants.



I'd like to see children taught to distinguish between historical science (which includes both creation and evolution) and observational science and then encouraged to come to their own conclusion based on the evidence.
 
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