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Jesus, the Only Begotten Son
- Thread starter Bishka
- Start date
Hi Squirt,
Because this is what the Bible teaches:
1. God the Father is God
2. Jesus the son of God is God
3. The Holy Spirit of God is God
4. They are all different to one another
5. They are all the one God because 'The LORD our God is one LORD'.
So although each one is different they are all the singular God that the Bible teaches.
Would we still be in agreement, if not would you show me where the Bible teaches something different or something more? Cheers.
Well, since we agree that God is one Lord, yet we have three different entities being taught as each being God - the only conclusion is that although each of them are different they must each be the singular God that is mentioned in Deuteronomy. Just the same way as the singular God in the creation converses and says 'let us make'. So three in one and one in three.
Because this is what the Bible teaches:
1. God the Father is God
2. Jesus the son of God is God
3. The Holy Spirit of God is God
4. They are all different to one another
5. They are all the one God because 'The LORD our God is one LORD'.
So although each one is different they are all the singular God that the Bible teaches.
Would we still be in agreement, if not would you show me where the Bible teaches something different or something more? Cheers.
Aqualung
Tasty
I'm going to jump in right here, and say that I don't think the analogy of the water is a good one. That once again implies different manifestations of the same god, rather than three seperate beings.Endless said:Good stuff.
What do you think about the analogy of the water to help others understand the Trinity?
I don't find it to be a good analogy because you can't have the same H2O existing simultaneously as water, steam and ice. For instance, if you have a gallon of water and you freeze it, it's no longer water (i.e. liquid). If you boil it, it evaporates (i.e. becomes steam). This sounds a bit like modalism (if I understand modalism correctly -- and I believe it is considered to be heretical). The Father, Son and Holy Ghost all exist at the same time and none of them are minimized as a result of the others' existence as would be the case with the water analogy. That said, I find most analogies to be pretty flawed -- especially those that are designed to explain the Trinity.Endless said:Good stuff.
What do you think about the analogy of the water to help others understand the Trinity?
(Matthew 3:17) Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved........... (Jehovah God has approved his son )
(2 Peter 1:17) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: "This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.
Lit., "thought well."
(Matthew 17:5) While he was yet speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.
(Mark 9:7) And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: "This is my Son, the beloved; listen to him.
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.......... Jehovah God did not approve or chose himself did he?
(2 Peter 1:17) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: "This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.
Lit., "thought well."
(Matthew 17:5) While he was yet speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.
(Mark 9:7) And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: "This is my Son, the beloved; listen to him.
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.......... Jehovah God did not approve or chose himself did he?
Not many people actually know this, but they can exist simultaneously as water steam and ice - in perfect equilibrium. It's what is known as the triple point of water. The three phases exist in equilibrium. If you google it you'll find out more about it. This is the reason i think it's a really good analogy of the trinity - all three different but all three the same in perfect equilibrium.
Of course they are. They are the same singular God just as it is possible for two or two thousand people to be the same singular flesh, people, voice, soul, heart, mind, mouth and heart.Endless said:
1. Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
When a man and woman marry, they are frequently said to be one flesh. Everyone knows that they do not mysteriously merge into a single being. It is assumed , however, that their love for one another will unify them in such a way that their common goals and desires will supercede their individual goals and desires.
2. Genesis 34:16 Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people.
This is an especially interesting example because it uses the word one to define a plural noun, people. By definition, people is the plural of person, and yet according to this verse, an entire group of individuals can be united in such a way that they can be correctly described as one.
3. Exodus 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Unless Im mistaken, all the people answered in unison. There were literally thousands of voices in the crowd, and yet we are told that they answered with one voice, meaning that there was no contention between them. Similarly, a very good choir may be described as singing in one voice.
4. Number 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep
Here we have not only one voice or one people, we have one soul! But its a soul of five hundred people. Do you believe that each of these people did not have a soul of his own? I certainly dont think thats what this verse means. But their five hundred souls were perfectly united in purpose.
5. Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh
Now were to the point where we have an entire group of people sharing one heart. Or, more likely, their combined hearts were in perfect accord with one anothers.
6. Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
One mind and one mouth. Paul was speaking to an entire group of people whom He wanted to join together in glorifying God. Each of these individuals had a mind, and each of them had a mouth. But Pauls wish was that they would make their minds and their mouths respond as one.
7. John 17:20-22 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
Do you think that Jesus was actually praying that His followers would physically and literally become a part of the Trinity, that they would be absorbed by the Trinity and would cease to exist as human beings? Or do you think He was using the word one to mean absolutely and perfectly united?
Hi Squirt,
I think those verses in John 17 can not possibly be seen as meaning that we should in some way be united with God as one. What Jesus is praying that believers on earth should themselves be united as one and that we would share the same type of relationship and unity that Jesus has with his Father. Jesus is only praying for the unity of the believers here - not the unity between God and believers.
That is why i think the water analogy describes it pretty well. We have three different phases - liquid, vapour and solid. Each completely different from each other as are Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father. But each phase is still H20 (singular) just like they are still all God (singular). At the triple point each phase exists in complete equilibrium just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father exist in complete equilibrium.
That's the way i see it anyway.
I think those verses in John 17 can not possibly be seen as meaning that we should in some way be united with God as one. What Jesus is praying that believers on earth should themselves be united as one and that we would share the same type of relationship and unity that Jesus has with his Father. Jesus is only praying for the unity of the believers here - not the unity between God and believers.
Is the section in bold showing the first interpretation you put on the verses? No, but this is what Paul touches on when he writes about being united together in Christ as one body - ie. the unity of the believers as one body.
No point going into it all now, but hope that gets the idea across. Yes, there are lots of verses in the Bible teaching us that we should be one body, be united in Christ and so glorifying God with one mind and one spirit. However i don't think you can apply this to the Trinity - because God is shown to be singular, ie. a single entity. Yet, we have three individuals also shown to each be completely God. To say that they are one in purpose and mind - and this being the reason for the singular God being talked about...i don't think so, the Bible makes it clear that God (the entity) is only one.
That is why i think the water analogy describes it pretty well. We have three different phases - liquid, vapour and solid. Each completely different from each other as are Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father. But each phase is still H20 (singular) just like they are still all God (singular). At the triple point each phase exists in complete equilibrium just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father exist in complete equilibrium.
That's the way i see it anyway.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
No problem, but can I just point you to my posts in this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27334&page=2&pp=10 ?Squirt said:
It would be taking this thread a little off topic to post our beliefs here and as I've already described our soteriology for others, this probably answers your question. If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask.
James