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Why don't Theist's admit that there's no evidence for God?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Given that people who have "experienced God" always seem to have that experience in their own head rather than in anything testable in the material world, at what point do you start thinking that that's where God resides?
I did not mention my head, so this whole thing is out.

If the life we perceive is a simulation, it's a remarkably good one. When a huge dialog appears in the sky saying "Earth v1.0 has encountered an error and needs to restart", then we'll know.
I did not say it was. I believe it is not. The difference I admit the role faith plays in what I believe. Why do those who worship at the alter of science refuse to. That is not directed directly at you but is true in general of those who use (what is even bad science) as arguments against God. Those who consider multiverses have greater evidence to consider God. I am only pointing out the inconsistency. If the Earth v1.0 was developed by man I imagine it would have crashed and burned long ago.

You say "we both used evidence and faith to determine beliefs." - I think this is the core of the problem, that you really don't see the difference between things you believe because of faith, and the best explanations science can come up with for observed data. Biggest difference: if a better explanation comes along, I (along with "science") will change my mind. But it needs to be a better explanation.
I see no application to the way I think or any Christian I have ever known thinks. A large portion of histories greatest thinkers (even scientists) have been men of faith. There is nothing what so ever lacking in the evidence necessary for faith in God. We have many times more than is necessary.


"Justifiable for faith"=what, exactly?
..seems to me that it means "what I want to believe, without any supporting evidence or even in the face of what be disproof"
Any ratio of evidence being sufficient is subjective. Even in science. My claim is that according to established rules of evidence and testimony, historical methods, and any other reasonable standard histories greatest experts in those fields claim the Bible and Biblical theology exceeds even the most modern of them. See Greenleaf or Lyndhurst.


Strawman: nobody takes the concept of multiple universes as anything other than a flight of fancy. Nobody is claiming it as scientific fact. It is valid as a thought experiment, even a hypothesis if the physics of a multiple universe meant that effects in nearby ones were measurable here.
The heck they don't. Have you read Hawking's grand design train wreck? Is he no-body? What is M-theory?

:facepalm:
People showing atypical behaviour is no proof of any kind of deity whatsoever: there has always been a range of human behaviour, from the good (I hesitate to use the word "saintly", you might misconstrue) to the vicious and nasty.
A typical behavior and events are the archetype tests for divinity and the transcendent. When Muhammad was waxing on in his usual irrational style he was accosted with the very natural and intuitive request to do the miracles the Biblical prophets did. He refused and at least those crowds escaped his insanity. On what planet is the mundane the domain of the strictly divine? The most common requested evidence of the non-theist is miracles or personal experience. I am starting to think you are unfamiliar with the topic.

Look instead at the properties of the god people have invented: depending on who's writing about him, he's either all-powerful or can be wrestled to the ground; he's either loving or psychopathic; he hates homosexuality (why would god care about that kind of thing? Humans obviously do, but why should a god?); he seems to have a whole load of very human insecurities. This is humanity investing all their foibles, fears and desires in a god that later on morphs into something different.
I have no use for a God a man invented nor of unknowable claims given as knowable. Is this really the type of logic you are wagering the potential destination of your soul?

Have you ever asked yourself why the God of the Old Testament is so different to the one in the New?
Not once I actually understood the Bible to the level of minimal acquaintance. There are actually story lines that begin in the OT that are concluded by whole different cultures and societies hundreds of years later (even by those hostile to the Bible in general). The are countless themes that carry through both covenants and both are dependent on the other. I see no non-continuity at all. If you actually cough up examples to go with the assertions we can evaluate them.


Has God himself changed, or is it what people want from a god that has changed so he's given a whole new set of properties?
The entire premise the questions are based on is false so they are invalid.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
I did not mention my head, so this whole thing is out.
So you've experienced god in ways that aren't simply in your own head? So presumably something where there is objective confirmation that god has been experienced? I'm sure you believe, but I'm not sure I do.

..as for the rest: you obviously have no understanding of what scientific method is, and how science works. That there are other people who also misunderstand and believe in Science with a capital S in a completely faith-based position does not change the methodology of people who do. If you did have such an understanding, you wouldn't be making the arguments that you do.

The heck they don't. Have you read Hawking's grand design train wreck? Is he no-body? What is M-theory?
QED

A typical behavior and events are the archetype tests for divinity and the transcendent. When Muhammad was waxing on in his usual irrational style he was accosted with the very natural and intuitive request to do the miracles the Biblical prophets did. He refused and at least those crowds escaped his insanity. On what planet is the mundane the domain of the strictly divine? The most common requested evidence of the non-theist is miracles or personal experience. I am starting to think you are unfamiliar with the topic.
You really think people behaving differently is evidence of the miraculous, transcendentent or divine? My word, you do have unbelievably low standards for evidence of things you want to believe in.

Not once I actually understood the Bible to the level of minimal acquaintance. There are actually story lines that begin in the OT that are concluded by whole different cultures and societies hundreds of years later (even by those hostile to the Bible in general). The are countless themes that carry through both covenants and both are dependent on the other. I see no non-continuity at all. If you actually cough up examples to go with the assertions we can evaluate them.
Oh, yes.. of course there's no difference at all between a city-razing, genocidal, vengeful yet weak & limited god and the loving, forgiving, evangelical one in the NT. No difference at all. How stupid am I for not realizing that he's completely unchanged even though his behaviour is right off the opposite end of the scale.

I think you've just proved you can rationalize to yourself that black is white. Good luck finding a zebra crossing.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
So you've experienced god in ways that aren't simply in your own head? So presumably something where there is objective confirmation that god has been experienced? I'm sure you believe, but I'm not sure I do.
I am quite sure you don't believe but that is not my concern. I am tasked with providing truth to the best of my ability. I am not responsible for what is done (or not done) with it. Yes I have experienced God in ways that were not in my head, not in my body, and not even known only to me. I do not have seas parting or the dead raised but I have more than enough to easily justify faith.

..as for the rest: you obviously have no understanding of what scientific method is, and how science works. That there are other people who also misunderstand and believe in Science with a capital S in a completely faith-based position does not change the methodology of people who do. If you did have such an understanding, you wouldn't be making the arguments that you do.
Science does not obey the scientific method half the time, we are not discussing scientific claims ( mainly experiential, historical, and philosophical ones), and I do not endow something as faulty as science with omniscience or with the power to arbitrate all truth so I had no reasons to state what I know probably more than you ( I have a degree in math with a minor in physics) what the method is and why it does not matter in this context. The exact same type of points have been raised from Aristotle, through Aquinas, and are used by professionals (some with at least three earned degrees plus many honorary ones in even scientific disciplines). It is possible you may be smarter and more experienced than my but it is a virtual certainty you are not even a patch for dozens of scholars who have made the same claims I have. So far your posts have been one long assertion without even the attempt to demonstrate any of them actually true.

I am a veteran and work in the defense industry which means I have way more acronyms in my head than I can process. This one is not among even those.

You really think people behaving differently is evidence of the miraculous, transcendentent or divine? My word, you do have unbelievably low standards for evidence of things you want to believe in.
Of course it is or could be, but in isolation is certainly not persuasive. If I saw a man instead of leaving West Minster Abbey where it (usually) sits actually levitated it to Chicago I would entertain the truth of what he claims is the source of his power. In a world that is characterized by sin I would give the only man in history said to have been perfect in any reliable documentation some measure of credibility. What is worthy of censure here is a bias so strong that it would not allow you to do this in the same circumstances. Again pure assertion on your part without even an attempt to demonstrate it true. I can argue God based on evidence in any category you wish to use that is valid at least. I just happen to mention my experience. I have unlike you so far actually given the methodologies and the greatest experts in those fields to look into. I will even give links to the legendary papers they wrote and I find it odd that you have simply ignored them all and made incorrect assertions about personal experience and the scientific method for goodness sakes.

Oh, yes.. of course there's no difference at all between a city-razing, genocidal, vengeful yet weak & limited god and the loving, forgiving, evangelical one in the NT. No difference at all. How stupid am I for not realizing that he's completely unchanged even though his behavior is right off the opposite end of the scale.
There is much difference between those two God's you made up. What does that have to do with anything? The God in the NT claims to have legions of angels to wipe out his enemies but it the intention since before the Earth was made was to not resist. That same God in the NT when the time has come destroys the entire Earth. That same God in the OT testament delivers his people over and over again from Egypt and others. Which one of those is the weak God? In the OT testament he places man in a Garden of perfect which he did not earn or merit. He sends food to the hungry, rain to the thirsty, help to the oppressed. In the NT he does exactly the same thing. Which one of those God's are mean? I notice once I again I alone have given examples instead of rhetoric. I have no desire or reason to debate your distorted personal opinions. If you ever manage to give evidence it may justify serious debate but your credibility is being used up fast with me.

I think you've just proved you can rationalize to yourself that black is white. Good luck finding a zebra crossing.
Until your rationalizations include even a bad attempt at a proof they do not rise to even this level. If your interest is simply to invent a context based on distorted Biblical understandings to enable an emotionally based complaint I have no interest. I can not justify responding to your current methodology (or lack there of) much longer. Step up with some examples, facts, verses, evidence, or something beyond opinions soon or I am out.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
This is getting exceptionally long and silly: from something that grew from a one-line reply into me being accused of offering only assertions without evidence by someone who has offered only assertions without evidence (I haven't worked out if that's merely ironic, or hypocritical)

Was there anything in particular you were after evidence for? If you like, I'll return the favour and point out the same lapses the other way round.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
As an agnostic theist I always notice other theist's attempting to prove God in one way or another. These arguments are never sufficient or conclusive enough to prove God. I recognize that my position is irrational and that there is no evidence for God. If you already have faith in God, what is the need to attempt to prove him?

Your mistake (IMO) is assuming that it is a blind faith. No, not at all. Zeus would be a blind faith. So might Buddhism? But Christianity has empirical evidence which you imply does not exist.

Even Jesus said (if you believe Scripture) "if you will not put faith in me then put faith in the works that I do."

Why is asking for them to have faith if he is providing proof? Because the faith he is asking for and the faith we practice is not in that which we know, but all that which has been promised. We have faith in heaven, we have faith that our prayers make a difference, we have faith that God is assisting us and our obedience is of great value. We do not need faith to know that Jesus Christ is real and alive and the Son of God. That has been proven.

Just the very real fact that the wooden statue of the Virgin Mary in a convent in Akita, Japan was witnessed to have bled tears of blood or human tears on 101 occasions is God's evidence that He is the One. It was video taped, it did also shed tears on live Japanese TV in 1973, and so on.

Now this is but one of hundreds of miracles. And based on the skeptics obstinacy (by and large) it is apparent to me that God's miracles are to bolster the faith of the believer far more than to convince the doubters.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Your mistake (IMO) is assuming that it is a blind faith. No, not at all. Zeus would be a blind faith. So might Buddhism? But Christianity has empirical evidence which you imply does not exist.

Even Jesus said (if you believe Scripture) "if you will not put faith in me then put faith in the works that I do."

Why is asking for them to have faith if he is providing proof? Because the faith he is asking for and the faith we practice is not in that which we know, but all that which has been promised. We have faith in heaven, we have faith that our prayers make a difference, we have faith that God is assisting us and our obedience is of great value. We do not need faith to know that Jesus Christ is real and alive and the Son of God. That has been proven.

Just the very real fact that the wooden statue of the Virgin Mary in a convent in Akita, Japan was witnessed to have bled tears of blood or human tears on 101 occasions is God's evidence that He is the One. It was video taped, it did also shed tears on live Japanese TV in 1973, and so on.

Now this is but one of hundreds of miracles. And based on the skeptics obstinacy (by and large) it is apparent to me that God's miracles are to bolster the faith of the believer far more than to convince the doubters.
If a wooden statue crying blood on TV is compelling to you, I wonder why you aren't a follower of David Copperfield, who made the whole Statue of Liberty disappear. It was on TV, too.
 

underthesun

Terrible with Titles
Your mistake (IMO) is assuming that it is a blind faith. No, not at all. Zeus would be a blind faith. So might Buddhism? But Christianity has empirical evidence which you imply does not exist.​

Why would following Zeus be any different than following the Abrahamic god? How does one require blind faith but the other doesn't?

Even Jesus said (if you believe Scripture) "if you will not put faith in me then put faith in the works that I do."

Why is asking for them to have faith if he is providing proof? Because the faith he is asking for and the faith we practice is not in that which we know, but all that which has been promised. We have faith in heaven, we have faith that our prayers make a difference, we have faith that God is assisting us and our obedience is of great value. We do not need faith to know that Jesus Christ is real and alive and the Son of God. That has been proven.

Proven how, out of curiosity?

Just the very real fact that the wooden statue of the Virgin Mary in a convent in Akita, Japan was witnessed to have bled tears of blood or human tears on 101 occasions is God's evidence that He is the One. It was video taped, it did also shed tears on live Japanese TV in 1973, and so on.

Now this is but one of hundreds of miracles. And based on the skeptics obstinacy (by and large) it is apparent to me that God's miracles are to bolster the faith of the believer far more than to convince the doubters.

And what about the very real fact that many shamans have performed 'miracles' by lighting a fire and having people dance in a circle around it until the ground bled? I'm sure that's been videotaped, too.

What about the very real videos of magicians sawing people in half and then those people being okay? Those 'miracles' have been watched on TV and in person millions of times.​
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Why would following Zeus be any different than following the Abrahamic god? How does one require blind faith but the other doesn't?​
As far as I know the Bible is the most studied and cherished book in human history and Zeus's book does not exist for evaluation. How are those equivalent? Christianity is hyper-superior in every evidence driven category possible. I would not how faith in them into two different categories but the range of difference within the faith category is massive. Historical claims are evaluated by probability not certainty and in no way is the probability for paganisms claims even in the same ballpark as Biblical claims.​
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
As far as I know the Bible is the most studied and cherished book in human history and Zeus's book does not exist for evaluation. How are those equivalent? Christianity is hyper-superior in every evidence driven category possible. I would not how faith in them into two different categories but the range of difference within the faith category is massive. Historical claims are evaluated by probability not certainty and in no way is the probability for paganisms claims even in the same ballpark as Biblical claims. [/CENTER]

:biglaugh:
 

underthesun

Terrible with Titles
As far as I know the Bible is the most studied and cherished book in human history and Zeus's book does not exist for evaluation. How are those equivalent? Christianity is hyper-superior in every evidence driven category possible. I would not how faith in them into two different categories but the range of difference within the faith category is massive. Historical claims are evaluated by probability not certainty and in no way is the probability for paganisms claims even in the same ballpark as Biblical claims.​

"Most cherished" is definitely subjective, and rather biased. Many cultures has their own cherished book(s). I don't think it is fair to say the Bible is the 'most cherished' of them all. I mean, that's not really something people can put a quantifiable value on. And being 'most studied' doesn't make it 'most accurate'. Romeo and Juliet is a hugely studied play; does that make it accurate and historically factual? Of course not.

Why must a book exist? It's not as if the Abrahamic god wrote the Bible himself, so why does it matter that Zeus did not write a book himself? People certainly spoke and wrote of him in much the same way.

What evidence driven categories are you speaking of? I'm sorry; I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't mind being a little more specific there, so I can see if I understand what you're trying to say. I don't want to misunderstand you.

Why are the beliefs of the Ancient Greeks any less probable? I understand what you mean about probability versus certainty -- and I completely agree -- but how do you decide what is more probable than something else?​
 

kloth

Active Member
As an agnostic theist I always notice other theist's attempting to prove God in one way or another. These arguments are never sufficient or conclusive enough to prove God. I recognize that my position is irrational and that there is no evidence for God. If you already have faith in God, what is the need to attempt to prove him?
some peoples evidence may not be good enough for you. but some have their evidence.
as an agnostic theist who believes there might be something most likely, what proof do you have of your theist side?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People certainly spoke and wrote of him in much the same way.
The didn't. In fact, the closest thing to a "bible" the Greeks had was Homer, and by the time we get to Plato philosophers and authors (like Euripides) were deeply uncomfortable about how the gods were portrayed in received myth.
There is another author who said that all of Homer and Hesiod is lies. Not just lies, but profane, blasphemous lies. This was not a Christian fundamentalist, or a 19th century academic armchair historian, but Plato. In book II of the republic, Plato's Socrates has just talked about which stories are better and which worse, and his discussion partner (Adeimantus) asks which stories. Plato's character and narrator (i.e., Socrates) responds:

Οὓς Ἡσίοδός τε, εἶπον, καὶ Ὅμηρος ἡμῖν ἐλεγέτην καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ποιηταί. οὗτοι γάρ που μύθους τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ψευδεῖς συντιθέντες ἔλεγόν τε καὶ λέγουσι/"'those,' I said 'that the two poets, Hesiod and Homer, and the other poets tell to us. Indeed it seems clear they told (and still tell) to humankind the false tales they crafted."

The word I've translated as "tales" here is mythous a form of the word mythos. So for Plato (and possibly Socrates) it wasn't just the story of Achilles, but every single myth told by those like Homer and Hesiod which were lies.

It would appear that Plato, an actual Greek who actually lived during the time and place in question thinks you are wrong. In fact, you aren't just mistaken, you've got it backwards. These myths are not just stories, they're lies.

The same is found elsewhere, as I already mentioned in another post. In one of the extant fragments of Varro's Antiquitates rerum divinarum we find him not only saying the same thing, but classifying types of theological discourse into "genres" of sorts, the worst of which was myth (mythice).

And when we don't have philosophers disparaging myths, we find historians embarrassed by them. Like the early 19th century rationalist biographies of Jesus, in which the authors tried to rationalize the impossible parts of the gospels (including the resurrection), Livy, Plutarch, and other both castigated those like Herodotus for including too much myth while they themselves explained away/rationalized mythic stories such as Romulus and Remus being raised by wolves (that was explained by a mistake about the names of the people that adopted these two mythic founders who never lived).

We find comedy developing by making the gods look foolish, playing on Homer and other received myths for kicks, and eventually the birth of the early novel doing the same. There's even a parody of Homer (it's great, actually) called The Battle of Mice and Frogs.


Meanwhile, Socrates was killed for profane actions as were several others at that time (one of religious crisis). The romans executed thousands of witches. They executed christians for not participating in civic cultic practices. They participated regularly and diligently in all kinds of religious rituals and practices, both for particular occasions and in regular devotions. The gods and religion were important enough to execute those who violated the sanctity of ceremony or, like Andokides, was put on trial for another type of sacriledge, and the rich paid enormous sums to build statues, temples, etc., to honor the gods. Religion was taken quite seriously, to say the least.

Why, then, do we have a tradition going from before Plato to until Constatine of mocking the myths, explaining them away, or equating them with sacriledge and profanity?

Because this idea of sacred myths was for the most part (albeit not entirely) created about a century ago (a bit more, actually) until those like Frazer, Michelet, Bachofen, Tylor, and even Campbell and Eliade stopped reading their own prejudices and biases into the myths and started actually seeing the difference between religions of practice and their own cultural conceptions of religion (religion of the book, or of scriptures).
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
"Most cherished" is definitely subjective, and rather biased. Many cultures has their own cherished book(s). I don't think it is fair to say the Bible is the 'most cherished' of them all. I mean, that's not really something people can put a quantifiable value on. And being 'most studied' doesn't make it 'most accurate'. Romeo and Juliet is a hugely studied play; does that make it accurate and historically factual? Of course not.​


Why must a book exist? It's not as if the Abrahamic god wrote the Bible himself, so why does it matter that Zeus did not write a book himself? People certainly spoke and wrote of him in much the same way.​

What evidence driven categories are you speaking of? I'm sorry; I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't mind being a little more specific there, so I can see if I understand what you're trying to say. I don't want to misunderstand you.​


Why are the beliefs of the Ancient Greeks any less probable? I understand what you mean about probability versus certainty -- and I completely agree -- but how do you decide what is more probable than something else?​
Your formatting sure is unusual. I disagree with your opinions about the Bible in the extreme but that does not matter here. My comments were made in the context of a comparison of evidence between what exists for Zeus and the Biblical God. Faith in one is not equal or even similar to faith in the other.

You asked about evidence but I need something to compare between. I will use Christ's life for the evidence concerning the Bible, however the evidence or sources for Zeus are all so bad I would not know what to choose. Please4 choose which source of evidence for Zeus you think is the best and I will compare them. Once you do so I think everything you have asked will be answered by the comparison.
 

underthesun

Terrible with Titles
The didn't. In fact, the closest thing to a "bible" the Greeks had was Homer, and by the time we get to Plato philosophers and authors (like Euripides) were deeply uncomfortable about how the gods were portrayed in received myth.​

I wasn't trying to argue that there was a "Bible" of the Ancient Greeks; I didn't mean any comparison nearly that literally. I simply meant that the gods of the Ancient Greeks were spoken of regularly and at least eventually written down at some point. Especially if we're considering the Roman pantheon as well. I was by no means trying to say that there was any one book, author, or auditor that was the equivalent of the Bible, just that there were stories and references. Some of which, admittedly, were written much later, but then again, the Bible was written much later than the events "actually happened", as well.

I do appreciate you taking the time to find all of that information on Homer, though. I'd heard much of it before, but it was certainly an interesting read again. :)
 

underthesun

Terrible with Titles
Your formatting sure is unusual.​

...Because I center things rather than leave them left-aligned?​

I disagree with your opinions about the Bible in the extreme but that does not matter here. My comments were made in the context of a comparison of evidence between what exists for Zeus and the Biblical God. Faith in one is not equal or even similar to faith in the other.​

But why is faith in one not equal to faith in the other? I understand your argument, I just don't understand your reasoning.

You asked about evidence but I need something to compare between. I will use Christ's life for the evidence concerning the Bible, however the evidence or sources for Zeus are all so bad I would not know what to choose. Please4 choose which source of evidence for Zeus you think is the best and I will compare them. Once you do so I think everything you have asked will be answered by the comparison.​

You're using the life of Jesus Christ as evidence for the Bible? But, isn't the evidence of his life... the Bible itself? That's a bit of a logical fallacy, don't you think?

I'm not an Ancient Greek scholar, so I do not want to misspeak on the matter by trying to come up with any of the examples you are looking for. I understand that that is not helpful for you, and I apologize, but I don't want to misspeak on something I am not qualified to speak on.

However, I don't think me providing a certain piece of evidence is relevant in the first place. I am not necessarily trying to argue that there is certain evidence for Zeus's existence; I'm simply trying to understand why you feel there is certain evidence for the Abrahamic god's.​
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist


...Because I center things rather than leave them left-aligned?​
I know but it is unusual.



But why is faith in one not equal to faith in the other? I understand your argument, I just don't understand your reasoning.
A person may have faith they exist, The same person may also believe you exist, and they may believe there is alien life in the universe somewhere. If your life depended on which claim was right are you suggesting there would be no difference between them? My faith of what will happen in one second is composed of infinitely more reliable information than a belief of what will occur 2 billions years from now.



You're using the life of Jesus Christ as evidence for the Bible? But, isn't the evidence of his life... the Bible itself? That's a bit of a logical fallacy, don't you think?
No it would not have been the way I would have gone about it but that was not what I was doing. I was simply narrowing what part of the Bible's claims I would use to show the evidence for. There are many very early claims outside of the Bible for Christ, the early explosion of Christianity, and even a miracles. Christ's historicity is virtually conceded by most NT scholars on both sides.

I'm not an Ancient Greek scholar, so I do not want to misspeak on the matter by trying to come up with any of the examples you are looking for. I understand that that is not helpful for you, and I apologize, but I don't want to misspeak on something I am not qualified to speak on.
Then let me ask if you do not see the difference in the quality of evidence for the God's the Greeks claimed existed and those for the Biblical God. If you are only saying that both require faith that would be a distinction without difference and hardly worth a discussion. However the quality of evidence is all on the Bible's side by far.

However, I don't think me providing a certain piece of evidence is relevant in the first place. I am not necessarily trying to argue that there is certain evidence for Zeus's existence; I'm simply trying to understand why you feel there is certain evidence for the Abrahamic god's.
I do not know how this discussion became only about what I believe. You made a comment equating things that are not close to being equal. I have no problem supplying the evidence I have for the Bible's God but that is not what I thought you interested in. If you wish for the evidence for the Biblical God then I will supply some of it upon further request.​
 
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underthesun

Terrible with Titles
I know but it is unusual.

...I'm sorry? I would have justified it, but that isn't an option in these forums, so... yeah.

A person may have faith they exist, The same person may also believe you exist, and they may believe there is alien life in the universe somewhere. If your life depended on which claim was right are you suggesting there would be no difference between them? My faith of what will happen in one second is composed of infinitely more reliable information than a belief of what will occur 2 billions years from now.​

We aren't talking about the difference between different kinds of faith, from religion to the existence of each one of us and what will happen in the next moment. We're talking about the difference between the same kind of faith -- religious/spiritual faith. I do not see a difference between belief in Zeus and belief in God.

No it would not have been the way I would have gone about it but that was not what I was doing. I was simply narrowing what part of the Bible's claims I would use to show the evidence for. There are many very early claims outside of the Bible for Christ, the early explosion of Christianity, and even a miracles. Christ's historicity is virtually conceded by most NT scholars on both sides.​

I misunderstood you; I apologize. But I think you are mistaken about there being many different claims outside of the Bible for Christ's existence. Can you supply any of these claims, which have no connection to the Bible whatsoever?

Then let me ask if you do not see the difference in the quality of evidence for the God's the Greeks claimed existed and those for the Biblical God. If you are only saying that both require faith that would be a distinction without difference and hardly worth a discussion. However the quality of evidence is all on the Bible's side by far.​

I am saying that both require faith, yes, but that both require the same kind of faith. I disagree with your assertion that one requires blind faith and the other does not. You say that the quality of evidence is all on Christianity's side, but surely one simple book written centuries after the events were said to have taken place does not equal any ind of certainty? What of the Qur'an? The Vedas?

I do not know how this discussion became only about what I believe. You made a comment equating things that are not close to being equal. I have no problem supplying the evidence I have for the Bible's God but that is not what I thought you interested in. If you wish for the evidence for the Biblical God then I will supply some of it upon further request.​

The conversation started because I responded to one of your posts about what you believe. I am really just interested in why you think that they aren't equal, why you think there is more evidence for one than the other. Is it just because of the Bible, then?​
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Except that God has changed over time. This is seen in the Bible as it moves from a God who was very much involved in the lives of the Israelites to one who was more handsoff. There's evidence to show that Yahweh as mentioned in the Old Testament was part of a pantheon of Gods, that other Gods did exist and that there wasn't one supreme God. Even Genesis reads as "Let US create man in OUR Image".

God changed the way he deals with his people over time. When my son gets older I will deal with him differently than I do now, BIG DEAL.
 
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